From asanl@lux.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 11 18:20:47 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA05103 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:20:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA07976 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dlopes@localhost) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) id SAA23529 for asanl@lux.ucs.indiana.edu; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) with ESMTP id SAA08381 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:26:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA16894; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:24:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id SAA10312 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id SAA10305 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:22:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from rjo04.embratel.net.br (rjo04.embratel.net.br [200.255.253.244]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA17936 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 18:22:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mh (mh.metalink.com.br [200.251.246.78]) by rjo04.embratel.net.br (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id VAA24650 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:21:26 -0200 (EDT) From: lcgarrocho@metalink.com.br (Luiz C. Garrocho) To: jabberwocky@worldnet.att.net Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 20:21:22 -0100 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Narrative Message-ID: References: <01BBFBD5.4FDB5280@208.santa-ana-001.ca.dial-access.att.net> Organization: MetaLink Ltda. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-ID: X-Gateway: NASTA Gate 1.18 for FirstClass(R) Sender: dlopes@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lcgarrocho@metalink.com.br (Luiz C. Garrocho) Status: RO X-Status: jabberwocky@worldnet.att.net,Internet disse: < >Subject: Aesthetics: Narrative >Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:26:22 -0800 >Can anyone recommend any articles, books, etc., on the subject of >narrative? Preferably philosophical treatments. >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl >> Walter Benjamin has a text who writes about narrative, where he talks about Nikolai Leskow (in german is Über Literatur, Suhrkamp Verlag, Frankfurt am Main, 1969). In English I do'nt no, because I read in portuguese. Good Lock. Luiz Carlos Garrocho e-mail: lcgarrocho@metalink.com.br __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Sat Jan 11 18:20:20 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA05093 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:20:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA17478 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:20:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dlopes@localhost) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) id SAA23449 for asanl@lux.ucs.indiana.edu; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) with ESMTP id QAA10449 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:41:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA24238; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:41:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA07186 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:33:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA07179 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (mailhost.worldnet.att.net [204.127.129.3]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA30842 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 16:33:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from 208.santa-ana-001.ca.dial-access.att.net ([207.147.160.208]) by mtigwc01.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with SMTP id AAA22046 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:31:07 +0000 Received: by 208.santa-ana-001.ca.dial-access.att.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFBD5.4FDB5280@208.santa-ana-001.ca.dial-access.att.net>; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:27:06 -0800 Message-ID: <01BBFBD5.4FDB5280@208.santa-ana-001.ca.dial-access.att.net> From: Jayson Murray To: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: Aesthetics: Narrative Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 13:26:22 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: dlopes@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Jayson Murray Status: RO X-Status: Can anyone recommend any articles, books, etc., on the subject of narrative? Preferably philosophical treatments. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Sat Jan 11 18:21:11 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA05107 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:21:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA08388 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dlopes@localhost) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) id SAA23643 for asanl@lux.ucs.indiana.edu; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 18:21:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) with ESMTP id RAA20702 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:12:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA31192; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:12:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA08050 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA08043 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:12:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from mule1.mindspring.com (mule1.mindspring.com [204.180.128.167]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA30302 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:12:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (ip46.belair.md.pub-ip.psi.net [38.14.57.46]) by mule1.mindspring.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA18772; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:10:54 -0500 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 17:10:54 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970107050831.226f7464@pop.pipeline.com> X-Sender: mindstorm@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: Jayson Murray From: crispin sartwell Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Narrative Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: dlopes@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: crispin sartwell Status: RO X-Status: At 01:26 PM 1/6/97 -0800, you wrote: >Can anyone recommend any articles, books, etc., on the subject of narrative? Preferably philosophical treatments. i think probably the best philosophical work on narrative is paul ricoeur's *time and narrative* in 3 volumes. but what's your angle? narrative in relation to literature, or narrative in relation to life? > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- imprecation is the austerest form of battery. --mr. toad __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 6 22:38:42 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA18090 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:38:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA17274; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:38:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA15341 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:37:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA15334 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:37:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.1.209]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id WAA02256 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 22:37:44 -0500 (EST) From: lharri03@sprynet.com Received: from 199.174.156.25 (dd14-025.compuserve.com [199.174.156.25]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA04184; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:37:38 -0800 Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 19:37:38 -0800 Message-Id: <199701070337.TAA04184@m9.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Narrative To: Jayson Murray , "aesthetics@indiana.edu" In-Reply-To: <01BBFBD5.4FDB5280@208.santa-ana-001.ca.dial-access.att.net> X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.14 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lharri03@sprynet.com Status: RO X-Status: Are you familiar with the journal Philosophy and Literature? It's excellent. There is an article that talks about narrative and one question the author addresses is the referential fallacy which I found extremely interesting. I don't remember the title right now but I can easily find it if your interested. The journal is fairly inexpensive and is worth it. If this is what you had in mind, I can locate the specific article and give you the address for the journal. Laura On Mon, 6 Jan 1997, Jayson Murray wrote: >Can anyone recommend any articles, books, etc., on the subject of narrative? Preferably philosophical treatments. > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Wed Jan 8 00:24:37 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09099 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA20944; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:24:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id AAA18929 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id AAA18918 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:17:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id AAA21405 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from blv-pm105-ip9.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM) id AA15666; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 21:16:34 -0800 Message-Id: <32D33B7F.458C@halcyon.com> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 22:15:27 -0800 From: Jeff Zahir X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Interpreting holographic images References: <32C65030.3EB1@cmich.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Jeff Zahir Status: RO X-Status: Jerry G. Smoke wrote: ... how we visualize or perceive the three dimensional > object within the film emulsion which is very close to being two > dimensional. It seems to me that this kind of highly technical creation > of ambiguous space is what lends the metaphoric and/or mytho-poetic > quality to holographic art. > > Does anyone out there have any suggestions, ideas, or bibliographies? > I would appreciate your comments. Thank you. JGS With your permission Jerry, I would like to suggest a thought on this which may seem slightly off point but may help define a thread for this request. I would like to expand the holographic metaphore to thought and an earlier thread by Pradeep Atluri of harvard.med.edu regarding perceptions of beauty. There are two kinds of holograms. Transmission holograms which require lazer light to "reconstruct" the image and can be used to project (refract) light in any direction to any point. The other kind are visible in standard light and are called reflection holograms. The clearest kind of reflection holograms are made from the projected images of transmission holograms. Since the earliest cognative theories we've been trapped by a stage-in-the-mind metaphore when we think about imagination, thought and memory but we seldom discuss what is the "light" by which we "see" inwardly. Once we get beyond the mechanics of cats on mats and unmarried bachelors, I think we're left with the role of emotion in cognative processes ala Damasio and others. I imagine a memory process as a hologram of an emotional state. That is not to say each memory has its own emotion but that the memory uniquely reflects from the spectrum of emotions just as color reflects from the visible one. What's more, it also serves as a transmission hologram in that it serves as a lens which refracts emotion which illuminates subsequent perceptions. The builup, over time, of these lenses is what could lead to one percieving beauty or a devilish chord. So why don't we "feel" all perception? We cannot "see" light. only what is reflected. We cannot "feel" the emotion, only what is reflected. The challenge I am grappling with now is the notion of "intentionality" per Husserl in directing our thoughts to images and imagination. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Wed Jan 8 00:52:07 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA09325 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:52:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA19419; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:51:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id AAA19494 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:50:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id AAA19484 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from bernie.compusmart.ab.ca (root@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca [199.185.130.34]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA26264 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 00:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.75.85.193] (remote529.compusmart.ab.ca [206.75.85.248]) by bernie.compusmart.ab.ca (8.7.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id XAA15664 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:28:45 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: michaels@mail.compusmart.ab.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 23:53:42 -0600 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: michaels@compusmart.ab.ca (Shane) Subject: Aesthetics: On Schopenhauer's theories of art Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: michaels@compusmart.ab.ca (Shane) Status: RO X-Status: Could anyone help me out with some questions I have re: Schopenhauer and his take on aesthetics? My questions will be too basic for many if not most of you I think, so if anyone is interested and has time perhaps it would be best if you emailed me privately and I'll spell out my inquiries. Thanks! __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Wed Jan 8 12:36:47 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA02716 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:36:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA29420; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:35:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA07071 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA07058 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:33:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from planet.eon.net (tigger.eon.net [199.185.220.36]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id MAA14874 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 12:33:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.185.223.71] (ip71.max04.ascend.planet.eon.net [199.185.223.71]) by planet.eon.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA25787 for ; Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:32:53 -0700 Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:32:53 -0700 X-Sender: jmunro@mail.planet.eon.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: jmunro@planet.eon.net (joan munro) Subject: Aesthetics: Reminder Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jmunro@planet.eon.net (joan munro) Status: RO X-Status: If you intend to submit a proposal for the CANADIAN SOCIETY FOR AESTHETICS Fourteenth Annual Conference at Memorial University, St. John's, Newfoundland June 4 - 6, 1997 All papers and proposals must reach the Program Coordinator no later than JANUARY 15, 1997. Papers can be on any aspect of aesthetics, broadly construed to include all facets of human engagement with the literary, visual, performing, and other arts. This year papers are especially welcome on the theme of Aesthetics Through Education and the Arts. Completed papers with abstracts, suitable for 20 - 25 minutes delivery (8 - 10 pages, double-spaced, 2500 words) and a general abstract (approx. 150 words) should be sent to the CSA Program Coordinator at the following address: Joan Munro, Department of Educational Policy Studies, 7-104 Education North, University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2G5. No identification should appear on papers since they will be vetted "blind". Detailed proposals for special sessions must include the names and affiliations of all prospective participants and a general abstract (approx. 150 words) making clear the objectives of each session as a whole. Participants must be members of the society. e-mail: joan.munro@ualberta.ca OR jmunro@planet.eon.net __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Thu Jan 9 10:18:12 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA19693 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:18:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA24217; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:17:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA05416 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:14:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA05405 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:14:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bayou.UH.EDU (root@Bayou.UH.EDU [129.7.1.7]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA10353 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 10:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.42.5.190] (pasyn-62.rice.edu [128.42.5.190]) by Bayou.UH.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA06653 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:14:23 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:14:23 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: Bad Writing Info? Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Status: RO X-Status: Could someone please re-post or send me directly the information on the bad writing contest? I've found a doozie I absolutely MUST submit. Sorry I can't find the original info. Regards, Cynthia Freeland __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Thu Jan 9 23:48:16 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA05544 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:48:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA32525; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:47:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id XAA28266 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:45:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id XAA28259 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:45:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from speedy.proaxis.com (speedy.proaxis.com [198.68.7.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA15532 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 23:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from pr00-42.proaxis.com (pr00-42.proaxis.com [206.163.142.104]) by speedy.proaxis.com (8.8.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA06489 for ; Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:44:25 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 20:44:25 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970109214311.23a78ada@proaxis.com> X-Sender: jparsons@proaxis.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Jeff Parsons Subject: Aesthetics: fwd:Bad Writing Contest Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Jeff Parsons Status: RO X-Status: >X-Sender: c.koellerer@pop.magnet.at >Date: Mon, 09 Dec 1996 10:37:56 +0100 >To: register@hhobel.phl.univie.ac.at >From: Christian Koellerer >Subject: Aesthetics: fwd:Bad Writing Contest >Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu >Reply-To: Christian Koellerer > > >>CALL FOR ENTRIES. Philosophy and Literature announces the third >>Bad Writing Contest. Please cross-post the following announcement >>on related lists for humanities, culture theory, philosophy, social >>sciences, criticism, editing, etc. >> >> ********************************* >> >> The Philosophy and Literature Bad Writing Contest >> >> The challenge of the Bad Writing Contest is to come up with the >>ugliest, most stylistically awful single sentence from a published >>scholarly book or article. Ordinary journalism, fiction, etc. not >>allowed, nor is translation from other languages into English. Entries >>must be non-ironic, from actual serious academic journals or >>books--parodies cannot be admitted in a field where unintentional >>self-parody is so rampant. Winning entries will be checked by our >>researchers before prizes are awarded. >> >> Judging will be by editorial staff of Philosophy and Literature. Finder >>of the winning sentence will have first choice from among the >>following titles, second prize will be a choice of the remaining books, >>and so on. The seven prize books are: Rewriting the Soul, by Ian >>Hacking (Princeton), The Magician's Doubts: Nabokov and the Risks >>of Fiction, by Michael Wood (Princeton), Dilemmas of Enlightenment, >>by Oscar Kenshur (California); Killing Time, by Paul Feyerabend >>(Chicago); Anti-Mimesis from Plato to Hitchcock, by Tom Cohen >>(Cambridge); Compulsive Beauty, by Hal Foster (MIT); Georges >>Bataille, by Michael Richardson (Routledge). If necessary, there will >>be a eight prize (a copy of the journal Social Text) and ninth prize >>(two copies of Social Text). >> >> We've fine prizes for this third contest, so join the fun! Please use the >>subject heading "Bad writing entry" and copy the posting directly to >>Denis Dutton, editor of Philosophy and Literature, so we can keep >>track of the entries: >> >> d.dutton@fina.canterbury.ac.nz. >> >> The contest deadline: 31 January 1997. >> >> ********************** >> >> Anyone may join Philosophy and Literature's internet discussion >>group, PHIL-LIT, by sending the message >> >> SUBSCRIBE PHIL-LIT Your Name >> >> >> >> to: LISTSERV@TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU >> >> ********************** > >FORWARD END >-------------------------- > >---------- >Internet: c.koellerer@magnet.at >FIDO: 2:315/3.22 >Fax: ++43 662 420236 (24h) > > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Fri Jan 10 16:15:50 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05906 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:15:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA24324; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:13:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA20806 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:09:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA20799 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from Post-Office.UH.EDU (SYSTEM@Post-Office.UH.EDU [129.7.1.20]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA04021 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 16:09:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.7.19.226] (Mac-5090.AH-Building.UH.EDU) by Post-Office.UH.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18580) with SMTP id <01IE1VYY28LK0006KJ@Post-Office.UH.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:04:08 CST Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:10:19 -0600 From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: My "Doozie" X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Status: RO X-Status: Thanks to the various people who told me to submit my "bad writing" doozie to Denis Dutton (btw, I could not find "doozie" in my dictionary and so am unsure of the spelling). In response to what seems to be popular demand, I will now share it with the list (with apologies to a few of you to whom I already sent it): "Despite techno-Orientalist fantasies of Japanese takeovers or threats of asexual samurai manipulations of this transnational cyberspace that pervade the genre, the desire of cyborg America remains a drive toward installing (through sublime spectacles of transnational power that inform the Asian/Pacific space of a Japanized Los Angeles in Blade Runner or Rising Sun) a policed state in which the blissfully interpellated subjects of the democratic nation-state, having overcome more properly modernist moments of what William Gibson has called "universal techno-angst," will no longer object to their subjective entry jacked into pleasure zones of cyberspace nor resist being expelled into deindustrialized streets of exurban sprawl." (p. 292) This REAL SENTENCE is from "Cyborg America: Policing the Social Sublime in Robocop and Robocop 2," by Rob Wilson, from _The Administration of Aesthetics: Censorship, Political Criticism, and the Public Sphere_, ed. by Richard Burt for the Social Text Collective (Minnesota, 1994). It was a bit hard to make a selection, and I actually had an alternative entry too: "If such a sublime cyborg would insinuate the future as post-Fordist subject, his palpably masochistic locations as ecstatic agent of the sublime superstate need to be decoded as the "now-all-but-unreadable DNA" of a fast deindustrializing Detroit, just as his Robocop-like strategy of carceral negotiation and street control remains the tirelessly American one of inflicting regeneration through violence upon the racially heteroglossic wilds and others of the inner city." (p. 290) Best regards, Cynthia Freeland Associate Professor of Philosophy and Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research College of Humanities, Fine Arts, and Communication The University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-3784 (713) 743-2993 CFreeland@UH.edu www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Sun Jan 12 20:12:19 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03610 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA04435; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:01:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA09842 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:00:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA09835 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:00:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id UAA18893 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 20:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by corn.cso.niu.edu id AA07910 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for aesthetics@indiana.edu); Sun, 12 Jan 1997 19:00:18 -0600 Received: from netmgr.cso.niu.edu by corn.cso.niu.edu with SMTP id AA26882 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:42:21 -0600 Received: by netmgr.cso.niu.edu id AA13530 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for tg0wet1@corn.cso.niu.edu); Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:42:20 -0600 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu by netmgr.cso.niu.edu with SMTP id AA13337 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:37:50 -0600 Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA13693; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:34:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA06143 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA06136 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bayou.UH.EDU (root@Bayou.UH.EDU [129.7.1.7]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA21760 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.42.5.199] (pasyn-38.rice.edu [128.42.5.166]) by Bayou.UH.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA14624 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:33:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:33:02 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Ph: V3.18@netmgr To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: A New E-Mail List Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Status: RO X-Status: Anne Jacobson and Cynthia Freeland, both of the philosophy department at the University of Houston, have created a new e-mail list. It is called "Cogsci-Hum", and it is concerned with topics involving cognitive science and the humanities and social sciences. Below you will find the welcome message for the list, which will give you a somewhat fuller idea of the list's scope. If you want to join the list, you can do so by sending the following command: Sub cogsci-hum to the following address: listserv@listserv.uh.edu For example, if you are the president, you should send the following: sub cogsci-hum Bill Clinton If you encounter a problem, let us know at ajjacobson@uh.edu WELCOME! Welcome to cogsci-hum, an e-mail list created in December, 1996, and housed at the University of Houston. This list is for the exchange of information regarding topics at the intersection of cognitive science and the humanities and social sciences. We hope you will find it useful and interesting. Cognitive science challenges some of the traditional models of explanation in the humanities and social sciences. In addition, cognitive science includes research on matters of importance to many disciplines not formally part of it. Furthermore, areas of the humanities and the social sciences include critiques of concept, theory and model building that may provide fruitful issues for cognitive science. Hence, there are many topics the list may cover. Many people professionally involved with research at the intersection of more than one discipline do not have the time or space for a list with very heavy traffic. We need, as a consequence, to start with some guidelines. As the membership of the list grows, members of the list may reconsider some or all of the guidelines, either adding or subtracting items. At this stage, the list is unmoderated, and all messages sent to the list will be distributed. Appropriate messages include notices about publications, grants, conferences, web sites, and calls for papers. They also include fairly directed questions about research and teaching. For example, an appropriate message could request information about syllabi and textbooks members may have used for a course on cognitive science and the visual arts, or such a message might ask for readers willing to review some of one's work in progress. Requests for views and reactions on specific topics are also appropriate and welcome. Inappropriate messages include very general and entry level questions (e.g., "Has anyone thought about consciousness?"), requests for help with student projects, and rudely critical remarks. Do notice that a reply to a message from the list will automatically go only to the original sender. If you wish to send your reply to the whole list, you can do so by following the general procedure for sending messages. That is, send your message to: Cogsci-Hum@listserv.uh.edu Listowners: (1) Anne Jaap Jacobson Associate Professor and Chair of the Cognitive Science Initiative Department of Philosophy The University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-3785 713-743-3204 (phone) 713-743-2990 (fax) ajjacobson@uh.edu (2) Cynthia Freeland Associate Professor of Philosophy and Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research College of Humanities, Fine Arts, and Communication The University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-3784 (713) 743-2993 CFreeland@UH.edu http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 13 03:25:57 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA07858 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 03:25:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA25004; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:35:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA06143 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA06136 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bayou.UH.EDU (root@Bayou.UH.EDU [129.7.1.7]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA21760 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:33:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.42.5.199] (pasyn-38.rice.edu [128.42.5.166]) by Bayou.UH.EDU (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA14624 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:33:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:33:02 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: A New E-Mail List Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Status: RO X-Status: Anne Jacobson and Cynthia Freeland, both of the philosophy department at the University of Houston, have created a new e-mail list. It is called "Cogsci-Hum", and it is concerned with topics involving cognitive science and the humanities and social sciences. Below you will find the welcome message for the list, which will give you a somewhat fuller idea of the list's scope. If you want to join the list, you can do so by sending the following command: Sub cogsci-hum to the following address: listserv@listserv.uh.edu For example, if you are the president, you should send the following: sub cogsci-hum Bill Clinton If you encounter a problem, let us know at ajjacobson@uh.edu WELCOME! Welcome to cogsci-hum, an e-mail list created in December, 1996, and housed at the University of Houston. This list is for the exchange of information regarding topics at the intersection of cognitive science and the humanities and social sciences. We hope you will find it useful and interesting. Cognitive science challenges some of the traditional models of explanation in the humanities and social sciences. In addition, cognitive science includes research on matters of importance to many disciplines not formally part of it. Furthermore, areas of the humanities and the social sciences include critiques of concept, theory and model building that may provide fruitful issues for cognitive science. Hence, there are many topics the list may cover. Many people professionally involved with research at the intersection of more than one discipline do not have the time or space for a list with very heavy traffic. We need, as a consequence, to start with some guidelines. As the membership of the list grows, members of the list may reconsider some or all of the guidelines, either adding or subtracting items. At this stage, the list is unmoderated, and all messages sent to the list will be distributed. Appropriate messages include notices about publications, grants, conferences, web sites, and calls for papers. They also include fairly directed questions about research and teaching. For example, an appropriate message could request information about syllabi and textbooks members may have used for a course on cognitive science and the visual arts, or such a message might ask for readers willing to review some of one's work in progress. Requests for views and reactions on specific topics are also appropriate and welcome. Inappropriate messages include very general and entry level questions (e.g., "Has anyone thought about consciousness?"), requests for help with student projects, and rudely critical remarks. Do notice that a reply to a message from the list will automatically go only to the original sender. If you wish to send your reply to the whole list, you can do so by following the general procedure for sending messages. That is, send your message to: Cogsci-Hum@listserv.uh.edu Listowners: (1) Anne Jaap Jacobson Associate Professor and Chair of the Cognitive Science Initiative Department of Philosophy The University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-3785 713-743-3204 (phone) 713-743-2990 (fax) ajjacobson@uh.edu (2) Cynthia Freeland Associate Professor of Philosophy and Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research College of Humanities, Fine Arts, and Communication The University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-3784 (713) 743-2993 CFreeland@UH.edu http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 13 06:08:06 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA15546 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:08:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA16419; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:07:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id GAA19087 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:04:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id GAA19080 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:04:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailsun.aber.ac.uk (patman@mailsun.aber.ac.uk [144.124.16.7]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id GAA26895 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:04:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from drapcbece (actually host pcbece.dra.aber.ac.uk) by mailsun.aber.ac.uk with SMTP (XTPPst-c); Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:03:05 +0000 Message-ID: <32DA1514.43AB@aber.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:58:47 +0000 From: Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Studies in the Literary Imagination Call for Abstracts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe Status: RO X-Status: The editors of Studies in the Literary Imagination have indicated interest in a special issue on *Consciousness and World Drama* They have asked me to provide a detailed proposal for such an issue. I am, therefore, now inviting abstracts for papers, which I would then include in my proposal. Publication might be as late as fall 2000, because the journal is scheduled through fall 1999. Papers collected in the issue would relate consciousness in its various aspects (ordinary and altered or higher states) to drama (as opposed to performance). Papers could focus on consciousness as portrayed in drama, as experienced by dramatic characters, dramatic techniques employed by dramatists in causing specific consciousness-related effects in readers/spectators. Different models of consciousness (Freud, Jung, neurophysiological, computer-based, Indian, etc.) could provide different answers to questions such as: what happens in the mind of the dramatist when he/she writes a play? what happens in the mind of the reader when reading a play (spectator watching a play)? Deadline for abstracts: 1 March 1997 I will prepare the proposal to the journal by March 15, and contact each potential contributor as soon as I have heard from the editors of the journal. All communication to Dr. Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrdfe Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies University of Wales Aberystwyth 1 Laura Place, Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 2AU Wales, UK Fax ++44 1970 622831 email: dam@aber.ac.uk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 13 06:26:21 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA15581 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA21970; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:25:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id GAA19381 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:24:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id GAA19373 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:24:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailsun.aber.ac.uk (patman@mailsun.aber.ac.uk [144.124.16.7]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id GAA20072 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from drapcbece (actually host pcbece.dra.aber.ac.uk) by mailsun.aber.ac.uk with SMTP (XTPPst-c); Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:24:44 +0000 Message-ID: <32DA1A77.35DA@aber.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:20:23 +0000 From: Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: ISSEI Call for Abstracts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe Status: RO X-Status: The International Society for the Study of European Ideas, ISSEI, will hold its 8th International Conference at the University of Haifa, Israel, August 16 to 21, 1998. At this conference, I will chair a workshop entitled *Theatre and Consciousness: The Psychology of Performance* Some of the questions that might be discussed at the workshop include: What happens in the minds of actors while performing? Do they get involved emotionally? Do they identify with the characters they play? Do/can they experience altered states of consciousness, such as translumination? How do they wind down after a performance? What happens in the minds of spectators while watching a play? Do they identify with the character, or with the actor, or not at all? What is involved in catharsis, and who experiences it, first actor and then spectator, or only the spectator by whatever the actors do on stage? How do Western and non- Western approaches to one or more of these issues differ? What can be gained from an intercultural approach? 1 January 1998 Deadline for 1-page abstracts. 1 February 1998 my response to all those who submitted an abstract 1 June 1998 Deadline for completed papers, maximum 3000 words 50% of all conference papers will be published in the journal of the ISSEI, *The European Legacy*. For further details about ISSEI, see Internet page http://www- mitpress.mit.edu/jrnls-catalog/euro-legacy.html All communication to Dr. Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrdfe Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies University of Wales Aberystwyth 1 Laura Place, Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 2AU Wales, UK Fax ++44 1970 622831 email: dam@aber.ac.uk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 13 19:53:19 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA32050 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:53:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA07247; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:29:04 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id GAA19476 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id GAA19465 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:28:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailsun.aber.ac.uk (patman@mailsun.aber.ac.uk [144.124.16.7]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id GAA09490 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 06:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from drapcbece (actually host pcbece.dra.aber.ac.uk) by mailsun.aber.ac.uk with SMTP (XTPPst-c); Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:28:02 +0000 Message-ID: <32DA1B40.1EA9@aber.ac.uk> Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:23:44 +0000 From: Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe Organization: University of Wales, Aberystwyth X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win16; I) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: MLA Call for Abstracts MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrafe Status: RO X-Status: For the 1997 Modern Language Association (MLA) Convention, December 27 to 30 in Toronto, Canada, I have proposed a special session on *Altered States of Consciousness (ASC) in Contemporary Drama* The session should discuss descriptions and experiences of desirable altered states of consciousness in contemporary drama from the perspective of different models of consciousness. The special session will have 75 minutes, i.e. 3 panellists will present a paper of 20 minutes each, and there will be 15 minutes for discussion. Calendar of events 1 March 1997 Deadline for 1-page abstracts to me 05 March 1997 I will inform all those who sent an abstract whether their proposal has been accepted 1 April All accepted panellists have to be registered as MLA members 7. April Deadline for my proposal of the special session to the MLA Committee. end of May I will be informed by the MLA Committee whether the special session has been accepted June I will inform all panellists of the MLA decision 1 November Deadline for receipt of papers from panellists all communication to Dr. Daniel Meyer-Dinkgrdfe Department of Theatre, Film and Television Studies University of Wales Aberystwyth 1 Laura Place, Aberystwyth, Ceredigion SY23 2AU Wales, UK Fax ++44 1970 622831 email: dam@aber.ac.uk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 13 22:20:23 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA01153 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA08243; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:20:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA20093 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:19:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA20085 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:19:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mendieta.recyt.net (mendieta.recyt.net [200.9.244.9]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA01885 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from bibusv by mendieta.recyt.net with UUCP id <176601-10620>; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 00:21:58 -0300 Received: by bibusv.edu.ar (UUPC/PcCorreo 3.0) with UUCP; Mon, 13 Jan 97 11:25:15 ARG Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 11:25:15 ARG Illegal-Object: Syntax error in From: address found on mendieta.recyt.net: From: Jorge Balladares S.I. ^ ^-illegal period in phrase \-phrases containing '.' must be quoted Message-ID: <864am485@bibusv.edu.ar> X-Mailer: UUPC/PcCorreo 3.0 From: jorgeb@BIBUSV.EDU.AR To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: unsuscribe Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jorgeb@BIBUSV.EDU.AR Status: RO X-Status: unsuscribe Jorge Balladares S.I. jorgeb@bibusv.edu.ar __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 13 10:39:02 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA18902 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:39:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA27674; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA26849 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:32:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA26834 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:32:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu [199.17.81.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id KAA21479 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/09Oct95-1257PM) id AA01104; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:32:55 -0600 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:32:55 -0600 (CST) From: Theodore Gracyk To: Cynthia Freeland Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: My "Doozie" In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Theodore Gracyk Status: RO X-Status: On Fri, 10 Jan 1997, Cynthia Freeland wrote: > Thanks to the various people who told me to submit my "bad writing" doozie > to Denis Dutton (btw, I could not find "doozie" in my dictionary and so am > unsure of the spelling). In response to what seems to be popular demand, I > will now share it with the list (with apologies to a few of you to whom I > already sent it): > > "Despite techno-Orientalist fantasies of Japanese takeovers or threats of > asexual samurai manipulations of this transnational cyberspace that pervade > the genre, the desire of cyborg America remains a drive toward installing > (through sublime spectacles of transnational power that inform the > Asian/Pacific space of a Japanized Los Angeles in Blade Runner or Rising > Sun) a policed state in which the blissfully interpellated subjects of the > democratic nation-state, having overcome more properly modernist moments of > what William Gibson has called "universal techno-angst," will no longer > object to their subjective entry jacked into pleasure zones of cyberspace > nor resist being expelled into deindustrialized streets of exurban sprawl." > (p. 292) > etc.etc. Yikes! Why on earth did you read this far into such a book? --TG __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 13 15:02:10 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA25325 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:02:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA26304 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:01:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.253]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) with SMTP id PAA11645 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:01:33 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970113200258.006bf080@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 15:02:58 -0500 To: asanl@lux.ucs.indiana.edu From: Heikki Saari (by way of dom lopes ) Status: RO X-Status: Hello, I am writing a paper on conceptual art, and I am looking for literature on this topic. I would be grateful if someone could recommend some articles/books on conceptual art. Please send your message to my e-mail address.Thank you. Dr Heikki Saari Helsinki Finland __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 13 21:47:33 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00797 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA01584; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:37:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA18569 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:35:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA18562 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:35:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA02942 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:35:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dlopes@localhost) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) id VAA07105 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:35:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) with ESMTP id VAA06447 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:34:26 -0500 (EST) From: uncover@csi.carl.org Received: from denver (denver.carl.org [192.54.81.3]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id VAA23393 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:34:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from by denver (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA18777; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:33:51 -0700 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 19:33:51 -0700 Message-Id: <199701140233.TAA18777@denver> To: dlopes@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: UnCover Reveal - Critical inquiry. Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: uncover@csi.carl.org Status: RO X-Status: Article availability and price: Service charge: $ 10.00 Copyright Fee: $ 1.00 ------------------------------ Total Article Cost: $ 11.00 * NEW SERVICE * You may now order articles from UnCover Reveal by faxing the citation (including the UnCover Order Number) and your Profile Number to 303-758-7547. Your profile must have complete payment information. You may also order articles by sending a REPLY message using your e-mail editor. Type the word 'ORDER' anywhere on the line that displays the 'UnCover # (the bottom line of each entry in the table of contents). The article will be faxed to you, usually within 24 hours. Charges will be made against the account number stored in your UnCover profile. JT Critical inquiry. DA Wint 1997 v 23 n 2 PG 225 AU Deleuze, Gilles TI Literature and Life. 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DA Wint 1997 v 23 n 2 PG 350 AU Butler, Judith TI Sovereign Performatives in the Contemporary Scene of Utterance. SI 0093-1896(199721)23:2L.350:SPCO;1- >> Profile #: 1085015 UnCover #: 251,075,027,244 JT Critical inquiry. DA Wint 1997 v 23 n 2 PG 378 AU Fish, Stanley TI Boutique Multiculturalism, or, Why Liberals Are Incapable of Thinking about Hate Speech. SI 0093-1896(199721)23:2L.378:BMOW;1- >> Profile #: 1085015 UnCover #: 251,075,027,250 JT Critical inquiry. DA Wint 1997 v 23 n 2 PG 396 AU Pease, Donald E. TI Critical Response. SU Regulating Multi-Adhoccerists, Fish('s) Rules. SI 0093-1896(199721)23:2L.396:CR;1- >> Profile #: 1085015 UnCover #: 251,075,028,003 -- The REVEAL Table of Contents service is supplied to you by the UnCover Company. If you desire further information or assistance, please phone us at 800.787.7979 (outside the US at 303.758.3030), or electronic mail to: uncover@carl.org. Thank you for using REVEAL. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From daemon Mon Jan 13 21:52:15 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA00845 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:52:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA10600; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:48:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA18916 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:47:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA18905 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:47:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA01950 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from dlopes@localhost) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) id VAA12516 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:47:53 -0500 (EST) From: dominic lopes Message-Id: <199701140247.VAA12516@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> Subject: Aesthetics: Archives To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:47:53 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL23] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dominic lopes Status: RO X-Status: Many of you have suggested to me that there should be an archive of the list: I've finally gotten around to creating one. At the moment, the archive consists of three text files, for October-December 1995, January-May 1996, and June-August 1996. September-December 1996 is coming soon. Additions will be made at the end of each (North American) academic term. So peruse a couple of megabytes worth of postings from folks around the world on a variety of issues aesthetic. (More plausibly, use your web browser's search engine to narrow in on what you're looking for.) The archive is at Aesthetics On-Line, under "Aesthetics on the Net". The direct address is: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/net/aesthetics-list-archive.html dom lopes __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 14 11:27:01 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03957 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:27:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA12256; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:25:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA04222 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:22:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA04215 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:22:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from info.cyf-kr.edu.pl (info.cyf-kr.edu.pl [149.156.4.11]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA05804 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 11:22:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from kinga.cyf-kr.edu.pl (6068@kinga.cyf-kr.edu.pl [149.156.4.10]) by info.cyf-kr.edu.pl (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id RAA28962 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:22:04 +0100 (MET) Received: (from uzguczal@localhost) by kinga.cyf-kr.edu.pl (8.8.4/8.8.4) id RAA12968 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:20:32 +0100 (MET) From: Krzysztof Guczalski Message-Id: <199701141620.RAA12968@kinga.cyf-kr.edu.pl> Subject: Aesthetics: request for adress of German Society for Aesthetics To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:20:31 +0100 (MET) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Type: text Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Krzysztof Guczalski Status: RO X-Status: I am looking for the address (post address or e-mail address) of the German Society for Aesthetics or of its delegate, professor Karlheiz Ludeking. Could anybody help me? Thank you very much in advance, Sincerely your, Krzysztof Guczalski Department of Aesthetics Jagiellonian University, Cracow, Poland __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 14 20:46:18 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA20110 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA15812; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA21406 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:43:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA21398 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from carson-oms1.u.washington.edu (carson-oms1.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA27302 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from carson.u.washington.edu (carson.u.washington.edu [140.142.52.11]) by carson-oms1.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW96.12) with SMTP id RAA12248; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:43:12 -0800 Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 17:43:12 -0800 (PST) From: "R. Moore" To: Shane cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: On Schopenhauer's theories of art In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "R. Moore" Status: RO X-Status: As a start, you should see SCHOPENHAUER, PHILOSOPHY, AND THE ARTS, edited by Dale Jacquette (Cambridge U. Press, 1996). Containes essays by several leading philosophers and a nice selected bibliography that will take you to other sources. Ron Moore (U. Washington) On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Shane wrote: > Could anyone help me out with some questions I have re: Schopenhauer and his > take on aesthetics? My questions will be too basic for many if not most of > you I think, so if anyone is interested and has time perhaps it would be > best > if you emailed me privately and I'll spell out my inquiries. Thanks! > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 14 22:29:55 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA14545 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:29:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA16398; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:29:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA24446 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:28:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA24438 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:28:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from bernie.compusmart.ab.ca (root@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca [199.185.130.34]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA04874 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:28:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.75.85.193] (remote673.compusmart.ab.ca [207.34.71.85]) by bernie.compusmart.ab.ca (8.7.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id VAA08895 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:10:07 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: michaels@mail.compusmart.ab.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 21:32:25 -0600 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: michaels@compusmart.ab.ca (Shane) Subject: Aesthetics: Re: On Schopenhauer's theories of art Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: michaels@compusmart.ab.ca (Shane) Status: RO X-Status: Thanks, Ron, for the tip, I will check it out; and thanks to the many responses I received from various persons re: my inquiry! (this is not to say all my questions have been answered, but the road is wider :-) Shane >As a start, you should see SCHOPENHAUER, PHILOSOPHY, AND THE ARTS, edited >by Dale Jacquette (Cambridge U. Press, 1996). Containes essays by several >leading philosophers and a nice selected bibliography that will take you >to other sources. > Ron Moore (U. Washington) > >On Tue, 7 Jan 1997, Shane wrote: > >> Could anyone help me out with some questions I have re: Schopenhauer and his >> take on aesthetics? My questions will be too basic for many if not most of >> you I think, so if anyone is interested and has time perhaps it would be >> best >> if you emailed me privately and I'll spell out my inquiries. Thanks! >> >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >> To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >> List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >> Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl >> __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jan 15 03:30:47 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA24190 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA00136; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:29:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA00709 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:23:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA00702 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id DAA15454 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 03:23:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from serialA10.innotts.co.uk (serialA10.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.17]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA17708 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:23:37 GMT Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 08:23:37 GMT Message-Id: <199701150823.IAA17708@carlton.innotts.co.uk> X-Sender: woodfra@mailhost.innotts.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Woodfield Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Review of Noel Carroll Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Woodfield Status: RO X-Status: Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:06:05 -0500 (EST)> From: Bart Testa cc: morch lisa Subject: Re: Review of Noel Carroll Noel Carroll, Theorizing the Moving Image. Cambridge University Press, 1996 426 pps. index. $33.95 (US). Courtesy British Society of Aesthetics Newsletter. Theorizing the Moving Image gathers twenty-eight of Noel Carroll's essays in film theory written since the late 1970s. These pages reinforce his outlaw persona in American cinema studies. Established in 1982 with "Address the Heathen," the hammering, 74-page critical article directed at Stephen Heath's Questions of Cinema in the journal October, that persona has been the lens through which he is most often regarded. Six years later, Carroll followed up demolition of Heath with twin books, Mystifying Movies: Fads and Fallacies in Contemporary Film Theory (Columbia, 1988) and Philosophical Problems of Classical Film Theory (Princeton, 1988). There was also a third study, The Philosophy of Horror, or, the Paradoxes of the Heart (Routledge, 1991), in which Carroll demonstrated the constructive side of his own theoretical approach. Typically of him in this mode, Carroll restricted the range of issues, in this case to a single genre. The book was scarcely noticed. Many of the essays in Theorizing the Image are similarly specific, focused on sharply defined questions. Some suggest further books of "re-constructive" theory that might resemble the horror study. For just example, "From Real to Reel: Entangled in Nonfiction Film," sketches a critical method for documentary film that bears comparison -- at least by way of a symmetry -- with the analysis Carroll devises for the horror book. Horror is an emphatically a fiction depicting something we know not to be possible. How, he analyses, do we deal with horror, or "art horror," as a mode of representation? Non-fiction films have been defined in the opposite way, as representing what actually exists. Hence they have been discussed within realistic standards "objectivity," and, conversely, against the "subjectivity" of their makers. The tangle most theoretical (and critical) discussions of documentary films fall into is woven out of this matched concepts. This choice if concepts is mistaken, Carroll argues. The relevant standards should really be those of right exposition and evidence, just as they apply work in other forms of non-fictional representation, like history-writing. As Carroll elaborates his straightforward, but quite intricately cased argument, the problematical features of much of the critical debates surrounding documentary films come into relief. The commonsensical clarity with which Carroll typically develops theoretical problems is persuasive, although it is rarely exciting. Sketchier but more suggestive of ways through the thickets that have grown up around standard issues of interpreting films are instanced here with "Causation, the Ampliation of Movement and Avant-Garde Film" and "Language and Cinema: Preliminary Notes for a Theory of Verbal Images." These essays provide lucid protocols for analysis of experimental films. "Notes on the Sight Gag" provides a schema for the study of silent comedy films. However, this neutral kind of theoretical problem-setting and problem-solving is peculiarly disconnected from the urgencies and disputes of "film culture," even the oddly detached quadrant of it that makes up the cinema studies academy. This is not to say that Carroll writes as a distant philosopher, as one often feels about, say, I.C. Jarvie or Stanley Cavell when they write on cinema. There are pages here beautifully tuned to Warren Sonbert, Stan Brakhage, Renoir and Keaton, and Carroll is justly notorious for the often weird range of his cinema references and his deftness in weaving film examples into his writing. But his thinking overall is detached from the premises and urgencies not predominant in much contemporary film theory. That is at least the case when Carroll is not directly engaged in attacking that theory. About half of Theorizing the Moving Image belongs to his consistent and uncompromised opposition to the theoretical position of what he terms "the cinema studies establishment," and that is usually called "contemporary film theory." It is this side of him that has earned Carroll a reputation as a dangerous controversialist. Several facets of this opposition to cinema theory are on view here, including a lengthy section devoted to "Polemical Exchanges" in which he answers his opponents or reviews a book, Kaja Silverman's The Acoustic Mirror. Until quite recently, Carroll taught philosophy at Cornell University. His area was aesthetics, not cinema. Although he took one of his degrees in film studies at New York University, his activity as a film scholar was, for a time, circumscribed by other academic obligations. Since writing the two theory books of 1988, however, Carroll has moved to The University of Wisconsin (Madison) and linked his endeavours to those of David Bordwell, a prolific and increasingly influential film critic and historian. Bordwell's work has for some time counterpointed Carroll's, pointedly in the book Making Meaning (Harvard, 1989) in which Bordwell criticizes the interpretive and critical tendencies in the cinema studies academy just as Carroll had their theoretical base in Mystifying Movies. Both writers express a strong commitment to what is now being called "cognitivism" -- an "ism" of many parts, as both scholars cheerfully admit -- and both strong oppose the Althusserian- Lacanian marxist-psychoanalytical positions that sustain a great deal of current English-speaking cinema studies. Recently, Carroll and Bordwell co-edited Post-Theory: Reconstructing Film Studies, a large anthology of essays written by colleagues, students and ex-students. Most of the pieces assume a similar shape: first a sharp critique of established views on a specific problem, then the sketch of an alternative solution. This is also the shape of almost all Carroll's essays here, and he considers it to be a properly dialectical mode of theorizing, modelled on what occurs in philosophy. Post-Theory also bears two polemical introductions one each by Carroll and Bordwell that make it clear the book is to be as announcing a definite program has been staked out around Madison, Wisconsin, and that a cadre of strong scholars has been enlisted to its development. Theorizing the Moving Image will only improbably be read outside the Madison School's project manifest in Post-Theory. There was an unmistakeable eagerness about "Address to the Heathen" to engage in combat, and the same tone energizes Mystifying Movies. However, Carroll's fierceness with Stephen Heath, in the late seventies regarded as the doyen of post- structuralist theory, seemed to come from thin air. While his reputation as a controversialist was not exactly thrust upon him, Carroll came by it belatedly. Previously Carroll offered scant promise as an academic in-fighter. Initially, his work was characterized by a fluid methodological pluralism. He wrote his dissertation on Buster Keaton and simultaneously served as a founding editor of Millennium Film Journal, devoted to experimental film and house-organ of the important exhibition outlet in New York of the same name. The experimental cinema to which he was devoted received cruel and destructive drubbing from film theorists like Peter Wollen, Constance Penley, Theresa de Lauretis and Heath himself in the seventies. His five essays on avant-garde film topics in Theorizing the Moving Image, all from Millennium, exhibit a rhetorical delicacy and gentleness which contrast with the tougher tone elsewhere. He does express caution about "Avant-Garde Films and Film Theory" that runs against the grain of most theorists in the seventies who decided experimental films should become, in Wollen's influential formula, "counter-cinema" and carry film theory's fight right on to the screen. But Carroll makes little note of the attacks coming at the avant-garde when theorists judged that it failed to fit in this program. It almost seems as if Carroll did not register contemporary film theory at all. In fact, this is not true. During the period when he published relatively little on film, he was also reviewing, on the book pages of The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism, some of the founding books of contemporary film theory, like Christian Metz's The Imaginary Signifier. This reviewing prepared the sustained attack in "Address to the Heathen." The significance of that essay cannot be easily overestimated, for it broke not just Carroll's comparative silence but was also the first frontal attack on the congealing academic consensus around the Althusserian-Lacanian paradigm. The progress of contemporary film theory has now become familiar through the agency of many expository textbooks. First, there were the Parisian formulations of the late sixties that broke with the structuralist phase of semiotics of the cinema. Then, the British adoptions at Screen in the middle-seventies, then the wholesale exportation to the U.S., led to a post- structuralist invasion of the cinema academy. Soon it was wearing the mantle of "feminist film theory." This variant became singularized after a very swift debate about how Freud could possibly fit the project of liberating women. In effect, feminist theory led to a canonized French post- structuralism -- or at least the Althusserian-Lacanian portions of it -- in the writings of Kaja Silverman, Mary Ann Doane, the Camera Obscura collective and others. Following upon many pages of pages written by him in Screen, Heath's Questions of Cinema became the canonical summa of contemporary film theory on its publication in 1981. The thrust of Carroll's critique was simply that Heath's arguments made no logical sense and could not be defended as theory on any apparent grounds. It was a case of someone calling out film theory's emperor on the coverage provided by his wardrobe at the same moment the academy's fashion writers were hailing the drape of his cape. That someone was, however, relatively obscure, and Carroll's call fell on deaf ears. The conjunction of feminism and contemporary film theory, it happens, led to an odd truncation of debate in American film studies. While the first "structuralist" wave of French film theory represented by Christian Metz's cine-semiotics underwent rigorous critique and debate, the second, post-structuralist wave was established more or less unchallenged. An important factor was that theory became entangled with the political and cultural project of the Women's Movement. (The structuralist wave had been politically disconnected.) As a consequence, theoretical models quickly became political paradigms. Take, for example, the abstract thesis of "subject positions" in cinema. The thesis seeks to account how a film visually orients and addresses the spectator's "subjectivity" (its definition is loosely derived from Althusser's theory of ideology). Initially devised to explain films operate so pleasurably as realistic illusions, the thesis took the form of an overwrought psychoanalytical reinterpretation, initially by the Lacanian Jacques-Alain Miller, of point-of-view editing devices so that "subject formation" and visual orientation in the image were conflated. This is what came to be called "suture theory." Feminist Laura Mulvey's further revised this same thesis by arguing that the viewer's subject position was always male, the illusion, or "looked-at- ness" of the screen spectacle placed in the point-of-view of character-and-camera, was female. All narrative cinema came to be seen as a latent expression of male sadism. Although his full critique of the "subject position" model in its originary French formulation appears in Mystifying Movies -- he sees it as theoretically incoherent and based on serial analogizing -- Carroll reviews its later theoretical revisions and proposes alternatives, in two essays in Theorizing the Moving Image, "The Image of Women in Film: A Defense of a Paradigm" and "Toward a Theory of Point-of-View Editing: Communication." The essays are, in fact, placed quite far apart in the book. Carroll does not draw the connection between Mulvey's model and "suture theory" in the point-of-view piece (though he does elsewhere in the book) but his purpose in "de- gendering" point-of-view editing is hardly elusive: so commonplace and banal a figure of cinematic construction, it should really be regarded as a communicative reflex of cinema (and of TV too) one, Carroll claims, is likely hard-wired into the human perceptual apparatus. It may now, on reading this collection in 1997, seem somewhat overly obvious that common figures of filmmaking as point-of-view editing carry little immediate cultural and political baggage (their on-site inflections in specific movies being another matter). However, for quite some time to question such Mulvey's revised model of "suture theory" -- and a fortiori the model and theory itself -- came swiftly to appear to be a refusal to acknowledge the force of sexism, or, what was worse, to appears "anti-theoretical." Carroll's comparatively dry calm as a refuting theorist in the face of the ideological urgencies with which film theory was conducted was regarded as a provocation -- and in some quarters it still is. Further, criticizing such feminist take-overs of theoretical models seemed to imply criticizing women colleagues in a newly expanding academic field. Carroll still takes pains, more than once in this book, to explain that his criticism of psychoanalytical theorizing should not be construed as criticisms of the feminist project itself. Indeed, his defense of "Image of Women" criticism provides a theoretical rationale for the feminist film criticism that Mulvey's arrival largely eliminated. He also adds, however, in introducing several sections of the book that such explanations will by no means protect him even now from such accusations. He is doubtless right about that, although it is characteristic of the sad state of debate that the colleagues Carroll disputes rarely trouble to read, dispute or even accuse him of anything, at least in public. Much of the emerging film academy in the U.S. attached claims to post-structuralist theory in order to secure a reputation for the scientificity continental theory afforded the humanities in the wider aftermath of structuralism. These theories also simultaneously keep up credentials of radical politics. Both needs were also inhibitors of debate over the source of their satisfaction. So successful was it in this respect that post-structuralist film theory expanded more than proportionately in volume along with cinema studies in the academy. Soon, it largely filled the institutional space carved out by the discipline itself, covering the domains of film analysis, interpretation and historical research as well as occupying the throne of Theory. By-standers, by which I mean those of us who simply taught cinema studies to undergraduates recognized how problematic this theory really was. Attempting applications to diverse cases, by study of the wider reaches of film theory (and of other kinds of theories summarily excluded by cinema studies, including the peculiarly excluded Lyotard, Derrida and Kristeva), and by noting unwarranted savaging of avant-garde and national "art cinemas" in favour of obsessive symptom-searching of "classical Hollywood texts" all proved consistently instructive. In such a setting, "Address to the Heathen" should have been a ballistic in 1982. It was well targeted in being directed at Heath, the strongest of British critics, and tightly packed with explosive criticism. October was not Screen, but it was a high- profile journal rounding six years of publication. Still, the denotation fizzled. It would not be the last round Carroll expended, but the promise of sustained warfare was disappointed. Heath's reply to Carroll, "Pere Noel," in October (Fall, 1983), was feeble and insultingly unsubstantial, as anyone following the debate noted, and as Carroll details in his "Reply to Heath," reprinted here. But, the point was, fewer than one might have expected were following theory debates. The next eight years, before Mystifying Movies, were very quiet. Contemporary theory seemed to continue but really attenuated in the eighties and was ready to limp into the waiting arms "cultural studies." The debate with Warren Buckland over Mystifying Movies, which began with Buckland's review in Screen, and Carroll's reply (refused by Screen and placed elsewhere), was just about the extent of the controversy the book's full-frontal attack generated. In fact, Carroll's reply to Buckland is in itself more interesting than it first seems. Carroll shows a significant conceptual waffling on his critic's part. A second-generation product of British film theory, and one of the few interested in the work of recent French semioticians, Buckland has been trying to negotiate a reapproachment between continental theory and "cognitivists." All he has to show so far is a feckless incoherence in his writing, and this Carroll has no difficulty in demonstrating. But the future prospects for what Buckland is attempting are not necessarily so depressing grim, as some hints in Carroll's rebuttal suggest. In the main, Carroll takes issue with post-structuralism, because of its strong Lacanian-Althusserian inclinations toward a totalizing Theory. His essays tend to be concentrations on specific questions, like point-of-view, music in films, film metaphors -- and Carroll actually terms this strategy "piecemeal" theorizing" -- a constant undercurrent runs along in an opposition to established forms of totalized Theory. As he also shows in Philosophical Problems of Classical Film Theory, and in the four closely related essays that constitute the first part of Theorizing the Moving Image, and in "Film/Mind Analogies: The Case of Hugo Munsterberg," Carroll sees the "essentializing" tendency of film theory since its inception to generate its most serious problems. The advantage of devising some theoretical "specificity of the medium," Carroll allows, is that it leads theorists to make an "art form" of a medium by isolating its distinctive features. This permits the theorist to distinguish an art from adjacent media. In the case of film theory historically, the recurring distinction fell between features of film and those of theatre. The problems arise immediately when these specifying features are pressed to explain what can be done with the medium, especially when it, like film, shares things it does, and does very well, with other media, things like storytelling and characterization. Contemporary theory inherits and worsens these classic theoretical problems arising with the urge to essentialize the medium, which older theorists encountered trying to define an art. Contemporary post-structuralist theorists tried to show that the distinctive features carry a nefarious and totalizing ideological power inherent in the medium. This attempt leads to all kinds of deformations of the film-theory project. Mystifying Movies carries the critique of these to their end, though many essays here offer relevant parts of that critique, and "Cracks in the Acoustic Mirror" offers a miniature rehearsal of the whole. The thrust is that the enlistment of Lacanian psychoanalysis to totalize the cinema has, in Carroll's considered view, utterly deformed theorizing itself because it insists that what can reasonably be explained by arguing from rational capacities of filmmakers and spectators must invariably be explained by theorizing irrational tendencies that control the techniques and forms of the medium. As Carroll explains it, psychoanalysis needs to be "constrained" to its areas where its explanations are relevant, and these cannot comprise the whole of cinema. However, as he has shown in The Philosophy of Horror (for example, in his discussion of Todorov's The Fantastic), Carroll retains affinities with aspects of structuralist semiotics which does not always or necessarily take up either a medium-specific or an essentializing position in order to model sign systems in cinema or TV or fiction. Semiotics, in turn, is not without historical affinities with "cognitivism" (and with Chomsky in particular), though post-structuralism, as received in the English-speaking world especially, was very inclined to forget such alliances. However, any notion of such affinities needs to be tested, and one of the curious absences in Carroll's disputes with film theory is the early "structuralist" work of Christian Metz. In fact, though, many sections of Theorizing the Moving Image indicate that Carroll is not a loner attempting to forge a new film theory, but is actually extremely attentive to historical precedents, exemplified by his essay on Hans Richter, and contemporaries. It is just that his reading list is not the canonical post-structuralist bibliography. Taking a wider compass, these may explain why Carroll's style of argumentation, though it is learned from analytical philosophy, remains readily comprehensible to film scholars whose training is often organized by semiotic models that, for all their saturation with bad analogies, totalized politicizing and sloppy psychoanalysis in contemporary theory, retains the skeleton of structuralism's reductionist-to-the-model reasoning. This is, at base, the same model Carroll also uses, though coming at it from another tradition of argumentation. Something similar should be said of Bordwell, a "Neoformalist" (which is to say he is an cautiously inventive student of the original Russian Formalism), shares with Carroll and semiotics alike a certain style of theoretical model building. The effectiveness of that style almost everywhere in the work of the Madison school of film scholarship. Some features of that localized alliance does help explain why Mystifying Movies is not as isolated a book as it may once have seemed. Besides Bordwell's Making Meaning, and other efforts of the Madison orbit of scholars (notably Edward Branigan's books on cinema narration), David Rodowick, in The Political Crisis of Political Modernism (California, 1988) and then in The Difficulty of Difference (Routledge, 1991), and Richard Allen in various articles, have been busily dismantling the apparatus of contemporary film theory from the inside out -- though not for the same reasons that Carroll writes to this end. The cumulative effect is now being felt, albeit slowly, across the "cinema studies establishment." There is a tendency on Carroll's part to see himself as a bit of loner, but Theorizing the Moving Image reads much less as an idiosyncratic book of essays than it would have six or seven years ago, and certainly than when most of the essays were originally published and enjoyed no active life in the debates of the cinema studies academy. It would be a gross exaggeration, on the other hand, to claim the situation is wholly reversed, and that Carroll's critiques and polemics are now suddenly fashionable. While the main authors of contemporary theory, such as Heath, have fallen silent or have, like Wollen, stopped writing theoretically all together, canonical contemporary film theory texts remain firmly locked into course readers and into the parade of expository textbooks, like New Vocabularies in Film Semiotics (Routledge, 1992), which continue the pass into the curriculum. Moreover, while an apparent eclecticism and pluralism seems to characterize the academy, so that even film historians, long regarded as the positivist wonks of cinema studies, are now accorded a measure of respect, this eclecticism is only apparent, and masks the absence of real debate. Theorizing the Film Image tonically indicates what some of that debate would be like could it only be released from needless inhibition. If "contemporary film theory" is hardly contemporary anymore, it retains permanent academic status. A lifeless consensus prevails about its importance, if not its centrality. In practice, it remains the template on which interpretation of single films, genres and even (back from the dead) auteurs are negotiated. And likely, for film studies at least, it is the base on which "cultural studies" (in all its pseudo-variety) will be positioned. This is the half-life institutional situation for film theory that Bordwell criticizes in Making Meaning, and updates in his introduction to Post- Theory. The circumstance also accounts for the necessity Carroll feels to provide well shaped alternatives in almost every essay of critique. The apparent advantage post-structuralist film theory enjoyed was its intoxicating application to seemingly urgent questions of politics and culture. Little in Theorizing the Moving Image reflects a preparation for facing urgent questions, but Carroll sensibly replies that theorizing about movies is not the activity that wins revolutions or ends world poverty, except in professors' fantasies. They would be better off doing more carefully reasoned theorizing that leads to a more precise and persuasive type of film criticism. It is also such a changed situation of cinema studies that Theorizing the Moving Image seeks to ferment. Its real accomplishment is not that it is an epochal or seminal book, but that it is steady and convincing as one variegated model of how film theorizing might proceed and theoretical debate conducted, should the cinema studies academy seek to resume those normal activities after the inhibitions of the very long decade of contemporary film theory finally concludes. -- Bart Testa, University of Toronto __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jan 16 17:26:20 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA06886 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:26:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA06678; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA18440 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:22:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA18420 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id RAA23180 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:21:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Thu, 16 Jan 97 14:21 PST Message-id: <2380661@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 16 Jan 97 14:21:41 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Aesthetics: romanticism To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: RO X-Status: Greetings, friends of art theory. For a philosophy course this term on German aesthetics I plan to feature romanticism and its impact on theory. I've scheduled secondary reading from MH Abrams: The Mirror and the Lamp, and Natural Supernaturalism. These are old friends of mine - so old that I'm getting nervous. How should I be more up to date? (Primary readings are Kant, Schiller, a little Schelling, Hegel, Heidegger, Gadamer.) Bill Peck Reed C __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jan 16 22:22:21 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA12235 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:22:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA00477; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:21:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA24930 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:17:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA24921 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:17:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp (sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp [133.33.16.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id WAA31378 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from hc115.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp (hc115.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp [133.33.16.36]) by sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp (8.6.9+2.4W/3.3W9) with ESMTP id MAA11751 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:07:17 +0900 Message-ID: <32DEEEE3.3A7E@sizcol1-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 12:15:47 +0900 From: "Steven J. Willett" Organization: University of Shizuoka, Hamamatsu Campus X-Sender: "Steven J. Willett" (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Bart Testa Review X-Priority: Normal Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------5EB658C342472" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Steven J. Willett" Status: RO X-Status: ------------5EB658C342472 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Dear Listmembers: I inadvertently deleted the Bart Testa review of Noel Carroll posted to the list by Prof. Woodfield. I wonder if I might ask someone to send me a copy. A number of my colleagues in the Classics list would like to read it. Thanks in advance. Steven J. Willett University of Shizuoka steven@sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp ------------5EB658C342472 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
 Dear Listmembers:
 
I inadvertently deleted the Bart Testa review of Noel Carroll posted to the list by Prof. Woodfield.  I wonder if I might ask someone to send me a copy.  A number of my colleagues in the Classics list would like to read it.
 
Thanks in advance.
 
Steven J. Willett
University of Shizuoka
steven@sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp
------------5EB658C342472-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jan 17 03:38:58 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA14656 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA29625; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA01180 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:31:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA01173 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp (sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp [133.33.16.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id DAA29467 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:30:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from hc115.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp (hc115.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp [133.33.16.36]) by sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp (8.6.9+2.4W/3.3W9) with SMTP id RAA12286 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:19:48 +0900 Message-Id: <199701170819.RAA12286@sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp> Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Steven J. Willett" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:28:18 +0900 Subject: Aesthetics: Thanks for Noel Carroll review X-Confirm-Reading-To: "Steven J. Willett" X-pmrqc: 1 Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Steven J. Willett" Status: RO X-Status: I want to thank Saul Ostrow and Cynthia A. Freeland for posting a copy of Bart Testa's review of Noel Carroll to me. Although it may be hard to credit, many Classicists are keenly interested in the cinema and its use or misuse of Classical themes. Arigatou gozaimashita! Steve Willett ============================================= Steven J. Willett University of Shizuoka, Hamamatsu College 2-3, Nunohashi 3-chome Hamamatsu City, Shizuoka Prefecture Japan 432 Voice: (53) 457-4514; Fax: (53) 457-4555 steven@sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp ============================================= __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jan 17 03:51:48 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA14724 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:51:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA28792; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA01371 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:44:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA01364 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:44:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from apollo.sfsu.edu (asilvers@apollo.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.167]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA30908 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 03:44:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (asilvers@localhost) by apollo.sfsu.edu (8.8.3/8.8.3) with SMTP id AAA00381; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:44:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 00:44:31 -0800 (PST) From: Anita Silvers X-Sender: asilvers@apollo To: "Steven J. Willett" cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Bart Testa Review In-Reply-To: <32DEEEE3.3A7E@sizcol1-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Anita Silvers Status: RO X-Status: I would like another copy as well I found I couldn't download the original My computer claimed it was a "read-only" file. On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Steven J. Willett wrote: > Dear Listmembers: > > I inadvertently deleted the Bart Testa review of Noel Carroll posted to > the list by Prof. Woodfield. I wonder if I might ask someone to send me > a copy. A number of my colleagues in the Classics list would like to > read it. > > Thanks in advance. > > Steven J. Willett > University of Shizuoka > steven@sizcol1.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jan 17 14:05:48 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA26689 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA17349; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:02:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id NAA20083 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:59:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id NAA20076 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.enterprise.net (root@mail.enterprise.net [194.72.192.20]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA10818 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.72.197.91] (max05-040.enterprise.net [194.72.198.40]) by mail.enterprise.net (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA25717; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:02:51 GMT X-Sender: gjg@mail.enterprise.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:00:06 +0000 To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) From: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: romanticism Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Status: RO X-Status: >Greetings, friends of art theory. > >For a philosophy course this term on German aesthetics I plan to feature >romanticism and its impact on theory. I've scheduled secondary reading from >MH Abrams: The Mirror and the Lamp, and Natural Supernaturalism. These are old >friends of mine - so old that I'm getting nervous. How should I be more up to >date? > >(Primary readings are Kant, Schiller, a little Schelling, Hegel, Heidegger, >Gadamer.) > Bill, Try Stephen Prickett, "Origins of Narrative - Tne Romantic interpretation of the Bible", CUP 1996. It has largw sections on how the German Romantics (as mentioned above!), purloined, appropriated and generally drew about Biblical themes in their work, both critical and fictional. You could also add Schlegel and Schleiermacher to your list? Cheers, Gordon * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Rev'd Gordon Giles, Treasurer, Christians on the Internet (COIN) Church of the Good Shepherd,19, Hurrell Road, Cambridge, CB4 3RQ (+44] 01223) 464348 ---------------------- http://homepages.enterprise.net/gjg __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jan 19 15:03:33 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA12447 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA14937; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 15:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA02673 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:58:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA02666 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id OAA09075 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 14:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from serialA25.innotts.co.uk (serialA25.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.38]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA26663 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:58:57 GMT Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:58:57 GMT Message-Id: <199701191958.TAA26663@carlton.innotts.co.uk> X-Sender: woodfra@mailhost.innotts.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Woodfield Subject: Aesthetics: BSA Review/Mandoki Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Woodfield Status: RO X-Status: Hi! I need some help. Would someone out there who is an aesthetician and can read Spanish please review a book for me: Katya Mandoki, "Prosaica: Introduccion a la Estetica de lo Cotidiano" (published in Mexico) [I have had to leave out the accents from the title]. Same deal as before: whoever makes the best bid gets the book and I announce a closure on the offer. I then circulate the review on Aesthetics Online and publish a hard copy version in the British Journal of Aesthetics Newsletter. Many thanks, Richard Woodfield [Secretary BSA] __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jan 19 19:13:19 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA19597 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:13:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA30772; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:11:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id TAA07765 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id TAA07758 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:08:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from VMSD.CSD.MU.EDU (vmsd.csd.mu.edu [134.48.20.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA00491 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:08:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from vms.csd.mu.edu by vms.csd.mu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #14229) id <01IEEN12WQI0QUG4Z0@vms.csd.mu.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:08:03 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:08:03 -0600 (CST) From: asastcar@vms.csd.mu.edu Subject: Aesthetics: American Society for Aesthetics Annual Meeting To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: Content-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/X-REPORT; BOUNDARY="Boundary (ID gcTjrsaJ8rs8tZR32MzM4w)" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: asastcar@vms.csd.mu.edu Status: RO X-Status: --Boundary (ID gcTjrsaJ8rs8tZR32MzM4w) Content-id: Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII --Boundary (ID gcTjrsaJ8rs8tZR32MzM4w) Content-id: Content-type: MESSAGE/X-DELIVERY-STATUS Reporting-MTA: dns; vms.csd.mu.edu Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 (unknown or illegal user) Final-recipient: rfc822; Aesthetics@vms.csd.mu.edu --Boundary (ID gcTjrsaJ8rs8tZR32MzM4w) Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Return-path: ASASTCAR@vms.csd.mu.edu Received: from vms.csd.mu.edu by vms.csd.mu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #14229) id <01IEEMPF8F8GQUG4Z0@vms.csd.mu.edu> for Aesthetics@vms.csd.mu.edu; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:58:39 CST Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:58:39 CST From: asastcar@vms.csd.mu.edu Subject: American Society for Aesthetics Santa Fe, October 97 To: Aesthetics@vms.csd.mu.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT ANNUAL CONFERENCE October 29- 1, November 1,1997 PROGRAM SUBMISSIONS Papers and Proposals for Panel Sessions are welcome and must be submitted by February 15, 1997. Members of the ASA and others interested in making submissions should send their papers and /or proposals to Professor Garry Hagberg, Department of Philosophy, Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, New York, 12504. E Mail: Hagberg@Bard.edu. Phone 914 758 7270. For further informatin refer to the Call for Papers published in the ASA Newsletter, or to the ASA Website. --Boundary (ID gcTjrsaJ8rs8tZR32MzM4w)-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 20 01:32:42 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA28463 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:32:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA09932; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:26:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id BAA16422 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id BAA16411 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:24:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA10712 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:24:44 -0500 (EST) From: GJLEONARD@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id BAA15451 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:23:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 01:23:28 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970120012327_1624363944@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Romanticism/ Book swap idea Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: GJLEONARD@aol.com Status: RO X-Status: An idea: should we consider swapping our books (articles, etc.) to build dialog and intellectual community? We're still inventing what one does in one of these virtual communities. It seems very anonymous and timid right now, like a conference before the drinks arrive. The recent query "Romanticism" gave me the idea. It was the first time the Internet gave me an experience I would otherwise have had to travel to a conference to have. I wanted to respond, "No, no, no, don't get rid of Abrams and Natural Supernaturalism now! Let me send you a copy of Into the Light of Things (U of Chicago Press: 1994): Abrams buttresses Arthur Danto's "end of art" aesthetics. Danto's greatest book on the subject, The Transfiguration of the Commonplace, described an artworld bent on showing that every mere real thing was better than any art object, and that once that lesson had been learned, in the 60s, the hell with art's stuff. But what Danto called "art" was a very new idea about what art was supposed to do. Abrams had described how that idea, Natural Supernaturalism, entered the arts, and Into the Light of Things lists passages as far back as the 1790s looking forward to a triumphant moment when NS can dispense with the arts, as a teaching device, the moment the lesson is learned. Abrams and Danto, then, support each other." I applaud Prof. Peck's reading list, hope he sticks with it, and, if he's interested, would be happy to send him a copy (email me privately at gjleonard@aol.com.) As I pictured the exchange of ideas between us which might possibly ensue, the kind of exchange you used to have to take a plane to get, I thought, What if there were some file where we could all post info about our research interests, with the object of exchanging books and articles with others? Or does this exist and I'm too computer-dumb to know how to find it? But I'll take the plunge here: if you've been publishing on Danto, or John Cage, or Natural Supernaturalism, or Wordsworth, Ruskin, Carlyle, and want to swap publications and comments later, I'm game! (Synopsis in JAAC review Summer 96 online at http://www.louisville.edu/groups/philosophy-www/ ) Should we create some page or file where those of us who want to try this, can? Might we not get some deeper, longer conversations going that way? George J. Leonard __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 20 11:07:15 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA14387 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:07:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA24151; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:05:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA06982 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:03:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA06973 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:03:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from alberti.fa.utl.pt (almmr@alberti.fa.utl.pt [193.136.97.3]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id LAA30945 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 11:01:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (almmr@localhost) by alberti.fa.utl.pt (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id PAA18019; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:55:54 +0100 Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 15:55:54 +0100 (GMT+0100) From: Ana Leonor Rodrigues To: GJLEONARD@aol.com cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Romanticism/ Book swap idea In-Reply-To: <970120012327_1624363944@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Ana Leonor Rodrigues Status: RO X-Status: Congratulations on your idea, i would be very intersted in such a "page" or group or forum where on could discuss thematicaly or send some idea to be analised or discussed from very different points of view. The advatage i always imagined in this kind of world wide comunication is precisely this possibility of geting in touch with different opinions and positions, without having to attend a "in person" a meeting or conference, and in a way very near to what a discussion could be... Being new in this kind of comunication, unables me to begin such a forum, but would, very entusiasticaly participate in whatever group would be created. I'll be waitting with all attention if something comes out of your proposal. Ana Leonor (Lisbon) On Mon, 20 Jan 1997 GJLEONARD@aol.com wrote: > An idea: should we consider swapping our books (articles, etc.) to build > dialog and intellectual community? We're still inventing what one does in one > of these virtual communities. It seems very anonymous and timid right now, > like a conference before the drinks arrive. The recent query "Romanticism" > gave me the idea. It was the first time the Internet gave me an experience I > would otherwise have had to travel to a conference to have. I wanted to > respond, "No, no, no, don't get rid of Abrams and Natural Supernaturalism > now! Let me send you a copy of Into the Light of Things (U of Chicago Press: > 1994): Abrams buttresses Arthur Danto's "end of art" aesthetics. Danto's > greatest book on the subject, The Transfiguration of the Commonplace, > described an artworld bent on showing that every mere real thing was better > than any art object, and that once that lesson had been learned, in the 60s, > the hell with art's stuff. But what Danto called "art" was a very new idea > about what art was supposed to do. Abrams had described how that idea, > Natural Supernaturalism, entered the arts, and Into the Light of Things lists > passages as far back as the 1790s looking forward to a triumphant moment when > NS can dispense with the arts, as a teaching device, the moment the lesson is > learned. Abrams and Danto, then, support each other." I applaud Prof. Peck's > reading list, hope he sticks with it, and, if he's interested, would be happy > to send him a copy (email me privately at gjleonard@aol.com.) As I pictured > the exchange of ideas between us which might possibly ensue, the kind of > exchange you used to have to take a plane to get, I thought, What if there > were some file where we could all post info about our research interests, > with the object of exchanging books and articles with others? Or does this > exist and I'm too computer-dumb to know how to find it? But I'll take the > plunge here: if you've been publishing on Danto, or John Cage, or Natural > Supernaturalism, or Wordsworth, Ruskin, Carlyle, and want to swap > publications and comments later, I'm game! (Synopsis in JAAC review Summer 96 > online at http://www.louisville.edu/groups/philosophy-www/ ) > Should we create some page or file where those of us who want to try this, > can? > Might we not get some deeper, longer conversations going that way? > George J. Leonard > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 20 10:51:39 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA13733 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:51:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA25368; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:49:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA05802 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA05794 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:45:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA22678 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:45:22 -0500 (EST) From: mjk2@columbia.edu Received: from p-dell1.philo.columbia.edu (p-dell1.philo.columbia.edu [128.59.228.95]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA20683 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:45:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970120153834.00754254@pop.columbia.edu> X-Sender: mjk2@pop.columbia.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 10:38:34 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: American Society for Aesthetics Annual Meeting Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mjk2@columbia.edu Status: RO X-Status: ANNUAL CONFERENCE October 29- 1, November 1,1997 PROGRAM SUBMISSIONS Papers and Proposals for Panel Sessions are welcome and must be submitted by February 15, 1997. Members of the ASA and others interested in making submissions should send their papers and /or proposals to Professor Garry Hagberg, Department of Philosophy, Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, New York, 12504. E Mail: Hagberg@Bard.edu. Phone 914 758 7270. For further informatin refer to the Call for Papers published in the ASA Newsletter, or to the ASA Website. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jan 20 17:15:09 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA29776 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:15:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA08788; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA02437 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:08:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA02430 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:08:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from Post-Office.UH.EDU (SYSTEM@Post-Office.UH.EDU [129.7.1.20]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA06690 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 17:08:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.7.19.223] (Mac-5087.AH-Building.UH.EDU) by Post-Office.UH.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18580) with SMTP id <01IEFX176LO00008ZM@Post-Office.UH.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:05:17 CST Date: Mon, 20 Jan 1997 16:11:52 -0600 From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: On-Line Biblio: Cogsci/Arts X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Status: RO X-Status: Dear colleagues, I have started a Web page that is a collaborative bibliography on topics in Cognitive Science and the Arts. This is "collaborative" in a real sense, in that I have added to it suggestions made quite recently by members of our list, as well as suggestions from the Cogsci-humanities discussion list. Here is the URL: http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/cogsci/ It is not a fancy site, and it pretty rough right now -- you will see that it needs to have a number of references filled in (this will be done very soon). However, I thought it might be useful to get a project like this started, and I pledge to try to maintain and update it often. It is subdivided into sections on Courses, Film, Visual Arts, Music, Literature, Art and Science, Related Resources (such as conference announcements), and Web Sites. These divisions are also very much up for revision (please make suggestions); I think you will find some good materials here! There is some material that might not be so familiar to philosopher-aestheticians on visual art, literature, etc. Very soon I hope to add to this page an on-line form for automatically submitting new references, but in the meantime, I would be happy to receive references to add to it by e-mail: cfreeland@UH.edu Many thanks to those of you who have recommended readings. I have tried to list your names on the bottom of the page (let me know if I've missed anyone!). And send in more suggestions! Best regards, Cynthia Freeland Associate Professor of Philosophy and Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research College of Humanities, Fine Arts, and Communication The University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-3784 (713) 743-2993 CFreeland@UH.edu http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 05:33:34 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA17949 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 05:33:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA19437; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 05:31:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id FAA22654 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 05:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id FAA22647 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 05:29:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from rjo04.embratel.net.br (rjo04.embratel.net.br [200.255.253.244]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA26182 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 05:29:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from mh (mh.metalink.com.br [200.251.246.78]) by rjo04.embratel.net.br (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id IAA12632 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:28:52 -0200 (EDT) From: lcgarrocho@metalink.com.br (Luiz C. Garrocho) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:28:50 -0100 Subject: Aesthetics: Search for book Message-ID: References: <1.5.4.32.19970120153834.00754254@pop.columbia.edu> Organization: MetaLink Ltda. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-ID: X-Gateway: NASTA Gate 1.18 for FirstClass(R) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lcgarrocho@metalink.com.br (Luiz C. Garrocho) Status: RO X-Status: Does someone an information about Aesthetic Experience and Self-Reflection as Emancipatory Processes: Two Complementary Aspects of Critical Theory" , in John O'Neill, ed. On Critical Theory, New York, 1976? I'm brasilian and need some information about this book - how to buy etc. Thanks Luiz Carlos Garrocho __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 06:17:40 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA18209 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:17:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA20175; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:11:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id GAA23391 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:09:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id GAA23381 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:09:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from adss-sql.adss.on.ca (adss.on.ca [204.101.198.40]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id GAA20790 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:09:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from DOLESKE by adss-sql.adss.on.ca (NTMail 3.00.06) id aa039590 Tue, 21 Jan 97 06:10:47 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <32E4A393.1D76@adss.on.ca> Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:08:04 -0500 From: doleske Organization: centre of the universe X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Cynthia Freeland CC: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: On-Line Biblio: Cogsci/Arts References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: doleske Status: RO X-Status: dear ms freeland: the resource you and your fellow contributors have put together is a valuable and worthy addition to the library of resources on the net. thank you for enriching my life and work. in appreciation doleske http://www.sharecom.ca/doleske/ Cynthia Freeland wrote: > > Dear colleagues, > > I have started a Web page that is a collaborative bibliography on > topics in Cognitive Science and the Arts. This is "collaborative" in a > real sense, in that I have added to it suggestions made quite recently by > members of our list, as well as suggestions from the Cogsci-humanities > discussion list. Here is the URL: > > http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/cogsci/ > > It is not a fancy site, and it pretty rough right now -- you will > see that it needs to have a number of references filled in (this will be > done very soon). However, I thought it might be useful to get a project > like this started, and I pledge > to try to maintain and update it often. It is subdivided into sections on > Courses, Film, Visual Arts, Music, Literature, Art and Science, Related > Resources (such as conference announcements), and Web Sites. These > divisions are also very much up for revision (please make suggestions); I > think you will find some good materials here! There is some material that > might not be so familiar to philosopher-aestheticians on visual art, > literature, etc. > > Very soon I hope to add to this page an on-line form for > automatically submitting new references, but in the meantime, I would be > happy to receive references to add to it by e-mail: > > cfreeland@UH.edu > > Many thanks to those of you who have recommended readings. I > have tried to list your names on the bottom of the page (let me know if > I've missed anyone!). And send in more suggestions! > > Best regards, > > Cynthia Freeland > Associate Professor of Philosophy and > Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research > College of Humanities, Fine Arts, and Communication > The University of Houston > Houston, TX 77204-3784 > > (713) 743-2993 > > CFreeland@UH.edu > http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/ > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 15:17:44 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA31990 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:17:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA01907; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:16:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA16062 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:14:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA16051 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:14:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from mc.edu (ox.mc.edu [192.239.216.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA29750 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:14:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from csc.mc.edu (csc.mc.edu [192.239.216.8]) by mc.edu with ESMTP (8.7.1/8.7.1) id OAA27920 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:14:22 -0600 (CST) Received: by csc.mc.edu (8.7.1) id PAA14852; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:14:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 14:14:21 -0600 (CST) From: Anna Cornelius To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Art Aesthetics Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Anna Cornelius Status: RO X-Status: Hello- I am in an Art class here at Mississippi College and one of our assignments is to come up with an all encompassing definition for the word aesthetics as it applies to the field of art. If any of you would like to contribute your knowledge to a good cause please write me back at acorneli@mc.edu I really apprciate you and your time, and I look forward to hearing from you soon. Anna Anna Cornelius inet: acorneli@mc.edu Mississippi College Student Clinton, MS 39058 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 19:20:43 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA08043 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA18985; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:18:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id TAA25699 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:16:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id TAA25681 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:16:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id TAA05827 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:16:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Tue, 21 Jan 97 16:16 PST Message-id: <2402271@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 21 Jan 97 16:16:05 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Aesthetics: romanticism To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: RO X-Status: i thought others might be interested in a summary of the suggestions i received from my recent query about something more recent on romantic theory than mh abrams: Lucian Krukowski, Aesthetic Legacies (Temple 1992) - on connections between Kant,Hegel, Schopenhauer and the recent discussion of post/modernism Tzvetan Todorov, "Theories of the Symbol" Azade Seyhan, Representation and its Discontents (California 1992) Richard Eldridge, ed., Beyond Representation (CUP '96) - on Romantic reception of Kant, mainly. Anthony Cascardi, The Subject of Modernity (CUP '92) Laurence Lockridge, The Ethics of Romanticism (CUP 1989) P.Lacoue-Labarthe & J-L Nancy, The Literary Absolute (SUNY '89) - commentary on F. Schlegel fragments and we should look out for Eldridge's article on Romanticism forthcoming in the Encyclopedia of Esthetics [and yes, Richard, I would like a copy] Holderlin's theoretical writings, ed and trans Thomas Pfau (SUNY, recently). Kathleen Wheeler, Romanticism, Pragmatism, Deconstruction (Blackwell '93) Stephen Prickett, Origins of Narrative - the Romantic Interpretation of thre Bible (CUP '96) Paul de Man, The Rhetoric of Romanticism Slavoj Zizek, The Indivisible Remainder, an essay on Schelling and related matters (Verso '96) Terry Eagleton The Ideology of the Aesthetic __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 20:26:17 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA09404 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:26:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA09164; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:23:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA27292 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:22:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA27285 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id UAA08981 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:22:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Tue, 21 Jan 97 17:22 PST Message-id: <2402849@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 21 Jan 97 17:22:16 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Aesthetics: Comment on Abrams, The Mirror and the Lamp To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: RO X-Status: [Aesthetics people: just one bit more on writings about romantic theory: I revceived the folowing adminition som e time ago from the History of Ideas list. - bill peck ... i want to issue a caution about the use of m. h. abrams *the mirror and the lamp*. it is filled with information that is still valuable, but the overall thesis--from plato to samuel johnson, "mirror" (mimesis); wordsworth and theromantics,"lamp(expressiveness)--can-ot be sustained. it is a very neat and satisfactory narrative, and it has had enormous influence, but it is faulty nonetheless. obviously i cannot provide full evidence or argument in this format, but the way to see the distortion is by going to plato's *timaeus*. abrams cites only *the republic*. in *timaeus* the creation myth employs two crucial metaphors: mirror and fire. "fire" is the stuff of the soul of the world, and the soul of man "mirrors" it in the relation of macrocosm to microcosm. one can find these images operating together right through western intellectual history. two examples. aquinas on angels: "the intellectual light is perfect in an angel, for he is a pure and most clean mirror, . . . ." shelley, "as each are mirrors of the fire for which all thirst" (*adonais*, 485-6). abrams wants to see mirror images being succeeded by lamp and fire images in chronological order, and to assign a different aesthetic to each, but,-- there is no other way to put it, even though it sounds hubristic--he is simply wrong on both accounts. for the full argument, see my chapter on abrams in *wordsworth's pope: a study in literary historiography* (cambridge up, 1995). bob griffin tel aviv university griffin@post.tau.ac.il __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 21:25:50 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA12041 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:25:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA22378; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA28472 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:23:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA28465 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:23:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA03280 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:23:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA05457; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:22:33 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:22:32 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: William Peck cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Comment on Abrams, The Mirror and the Lamp In-Reply-To: <2402849@isis.Reed.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: RO X-Status: Abrams is not concerned with what one might call the neo-Platonic tradition, which had much less connection with what most artists actually did, unlike the Aristotelian tradition, which did. There are obviously exceptions, and one can even argue, that even romanticism just switches mimesis from outside world to inner life, but that just masks a whole series of related changes, suchas the switch froma productive notion of art to one in which reception becomes more important. It is a matter of emphasis, and I think Abrams has got that right. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jan 21 21:54:00 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA12825 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA31897; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA29191 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:45:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA29183 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:45:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from VMSE.CSD.MU.EDU (vmse.csd.mu.edu [134.48.20.6]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA24997 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:45:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from vms.csd.mu.edu by vms.csd.mu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #14229) id <01IEHL39KEK090P95F@vms.csd.mu.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:44:55 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:44:55 -0600 (CST) From: asastcar@vms.csd.mu.edu Subject: Aesthetics: American society for aesthetics Annual Meeting Santa Fe To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: asastcar@vms.csd.mu.edu Status: RO X-Status: AMERICAN SOCIETY FOR AESTHETICS An association for Annual Meeting, Santa Fe, October 29-November 1, 1997 Deadline for submission of Papers and Panel Proposals: February 15, 1997. Members of ASA (There is still time to join) are invited to submit papers and panel proposal for presentation at the American Society For Aesthetics Annual Meeting in Santa Fe, New Mexico. Please send submissions to Garry Hagberg, Program Chair, Department of Philosophy, Bard College, Annandale-on-Hudson, New York, 12504. E Mail hagberg@bard.edu. Contact the ASA Website for the Call for Papers and additional information. http:\\www.indiana.edu/~asanl Curtis L. Carter Secretary-Treasurer __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jan 22 14:07:54 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA14231 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:07:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA18719; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:04:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA25605 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA25583 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:01:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA10226 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:01:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:01:34 +0100 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:01:33 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:02:06 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Aesthetics: ERASURES AND PENTIMENTI Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: RO X-Status: VIENT DE PARAITRE/JUST PUBLISHED RATURES ET REPENTIRS (RHETORIQUES DES ARTS, V) ERASURES AND PENTIMENTI (RHETORICS OF THE ARTS, V) Ed. B. Rouge. PUBLICATIONS DE L'UNIVERSITE DE PAU (FRANCE) (Sommaire ci-dessous/Contents below) RENSEIGNEMENTS ET COMMANDES/INFORMATION AND ORDERS: Email: pup@crisv1.univ-pau.fr Plus de rensignements sur/More information on Webpage: http://193.50.224.51/ Vous pouvez demander le texte de l'introduction You may ask for the introduction to be sent to you INTRODUCTION - Bertrand Rouge. "La rature, le repentir et 'l'avoir-eu-lieu'" I - TRAITS - Pierre-Marc de Biasi (CNRS-ITEM): "Qu'est-ce qu'une rature?" - Almuth Gresillon (CNRS-ITEM): "Raturer, rater, rayer, eradiquer, radier, irradier" II - RETRAITS - Dominique Clevenot (Toulouse II): "Repentirs iconoclastes dans la peinture du monde musulman" - Kim Young Hae/Michel Costantini (Paris VII/Tours): "L'effleurement et le retrait" - Marc Richir (FNRS, Bruxelles): "Le travail de l'artiste a meme l'=A6uvre: visible ou invisible?" - Peter Szendy (IRCAM): "Sous reserve" III - AUTOPORTRAITS - Daniel Arasse (EHESS): "'Montanus Fingebat.' Sur une rature de Montaigne" - Michel Magnien (Paris III): "Montaigne III,2: 'Du repentir'" - Marie-Pierre Gaviano (Pau): "La rature comme texte: Remarques sur les Essais de Montaigne et une autobiographie d'Althusser" - Bertrand Rouge (Pau): "'Ponctuation de dehiscence' et 'saincte couture': la rature, la voix, et le 'point d'ami' (A propos de l'autoportrait chez Johns, Beckett, Thoreau et Montaigne)" - Itzhak Goldberg (Aix-Marseille I): "Devisager la rature (Arnulf Rainer)" - Jacques D=FCrrenmatt (Poitiers): "Repentirs et division" IV - REPRISES - Jean Lancri (Paris I): "Sous (benefice de) rature ou la litterature a l'epreuve de la peinture: menues reflexions sur le Humument de Tom Phillips - Rene Passeron (CNRS): "Poietique et rectification" - Michel Collot (Paris X): "Repentir et reparation" - Jacques English (Rennes I): "De la psychologie intentionnelle de 1901 a la phenomenologie transcendantale de 1913: la reecriture par Husserl des cinq premieres Recherches logiques" V - RELIQUES... ET DECHETS - Pierre-Antoine Fabre (EHESS): "Sainte Rature et relique d'ecriture: remarques sur le manuscrit du Journal des motions interieures d'Ignace de Loyola (1544-1545)" - Amancio Tenaguillo y Cortazar (Pau): "La scene de la rature (Cervantes, Pinget, Saint Augustin)" - Marie-Noelle Moyal (Pau): "Le non-repentir et la valorisation du defaut en musique acousmatique" Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau =46rance __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jan 22 15:21:31 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA19431 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:21:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA31405; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:21:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA29522 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:16:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA29515 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:16:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from Post-Office.UH.EDU (SYSTEM@Post-Office.UH.EDU [129.7.1.20]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA15743 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:16:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.7.19.251] (Mac-5115.AH-Building.UH.EDU) by Post-Office.UH.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18580) with SMTP id <01IEIL6S2LOY000G4O@Post-Office.UH.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:58:34 CST Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 14:05:13 -0600 From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: The Timaeus and The Mirror and the Lamp X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Cc: griffin@post.tau.ac.il Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Status: RO X-Status: Imagine my surprise when I took a break from preparing to teach Plato's Timaeus in my graduate seminar on Ancient Science today, and found this comment in my e-mail (sent by Bill Peck but written by bob griffin (griffin@post.tau.ac.il): >obviously i cannot provide full evidence or argument in this format, but >the way to see the distortion is by going to plato's *timaeus*. abrams >cites only *the republic*. in *timaeus* the creation myth employs two crucial >metaphors: mirror and fire. "fire" is the stuff of the soul of the world, and >the soul of man "mirrors" it in the relation of macrocosm to microcosm. I don't think this is really right. Fire is at best the BODY of the divine beings but it is not really the soul of the world, nor of any beings divine or otherwise. The soul (that includes the World-Soul) is compounded from a bizarre mixture of being, sameness, and difference. Mirroring is used more as a metaphor for the Receptacle than for anything else. Human souls aren't really supposed to mirror the structure of the cosmos but rather the SAME (a part as it were of the world soul)--which is that aspect through which the stars rotate and revolve in orderly ways. Fire is best and brightest, yes, and vision enables us to be inspired by the stars, yes, but the ontological status of fire is really on a par with that of the other three elements (all made out of the primitive triangles and all present in the precosmic state of the Receptacle). Insofar as there's language of sensible reality as an image in the Timaeus, I think it actually matches up amazingly well with the Republic views on this (e.g. in The Divided Line, the attack on poetry in Book X, etc.). Has anyone mentioned Richard Rorty on the dominance of ocular metaphors in western thought? ;-) Sorry, maybe this is picky! But I couldn't resist commenting. Regards, Cynthia Freeland Wearing my Greek Philosophy Hat P.S. So as to be constructive: on romanticism I'd like to mention the study of the _Romantic Sublime_ by T. Weiskel; I've been reading a book called _The Gothic Sublime_ by Vijay Mishra now which mentions it, and draws some nice contrasts. (The Gothic sublime, it turns out, anticipates the postmodern. What do you know!) Cynthia Freeland Associate Professor of Philosophy and Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research College of Humanities, Fine Arts, and Communication The University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-3784 (713) 743-2993 CFreeland@UH.edu http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jan 23 05:47:01 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA10520 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA16598; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id FAA26414 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:37:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id FAA26407 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:37:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA05340 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 05:37:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:37:40 +0100 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:37:39 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:38:11 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Aesthetics: ERASURES AND PENTIMENTI (Post Scriptum!) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: RO X-Status: Dear list-members, I'm sorry, I forgot some useful information in my previous message. The ISBN for *Ratures et Repentirs* is: 2-908930-36-6 The ISSN for the series is: 1243-1516 Yours, Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jan 23 16:54:47 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA23177 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:54:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA19452; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:54:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA22333 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:51:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA22326 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA10395 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:51:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (x1s5p5.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.248.64]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/1.3shakespeare) with SMTP id QAA03956 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:51:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970123164150.0068e4c8@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 16:45:57 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: American Society for Aesthetics (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: CFP: New Journal in Modernism (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: American Society for Aesthetics (by way of dom lopes ) Status: RO X-Status: International Review of Modernism: The _International Review of Modernism_ is a new review-journal that will publish short articles, reviews, and extended review-essays on new scholarly and critical books on European modernist literature and culture situated in historical and national contexts. The coverage will be broad both temporally (from decadence and fin-de-siecle to the start of the second World War) and spatially (from Great Britain to Russia). We are interested in all of the many contending movements in literature and the other arts (post-impressionism, decadence, favism, cubism, imagism, vorticism, futurism, dadaism, surrealism, expressionism, etc.). The journal will review at least fifty books per issue, and the journal will appear two times a year, February and October (first issue, Oct., 1997). We would like to hear from qualified reviewers, especially from those who have suggestions for topics for review-essays and short articles. Send a short list of publications, together with letters indicating areas, topics, authors, or languages of particular interest to you. All correspondence and questions about submissions and subscriptions should be sent to Leonard Orr, Editor, _International Review of Modernism_, Dept. of English, Washington State University, 100 Sprout Rd., Richland WA 99352. Queries may be sent by e-mail (orr@beta.tricity.wsu.edu). Subscriptions are $12/yr ($18US foreign). __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jan 23 18:25:36 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA25138 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:25:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA23235; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id SAA25254 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id SAA25240 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:23:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from yei.csulb.edu (yei.csulb.edu [134.139.1.32]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA13193 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:23:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from lonbea1.csu.sloc.net (p2-as2.lonbea1.csu.sloc.net [206.107.67.42]) by yei.csulb.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA12773 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:23:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701232323.PAA12773@yei.csulb.edu> X-Sender: jvancamp@popmail.csulb.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:15:23 -0800 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: jvancamp@csulb.edu (Julie C. Van Camp) Subject: Aesthetics: Job Announcement: DNB librarian Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jvancamp@csulb.edu (Julie C. Van Camp) Status: RO X-Status: I'm forwarding a recruitment announcement from the Dance Notation Bureau for a new librarian, which might be of interest to subscribers to the ASA-list or their friends and colleagues.--Julie Van Camp >Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:47:14 -0500 >Reply-To: LabanTalk@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu >Sender: owner-LabanTalk@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu >From: notation@mindspring.com >To: LabanTalk@lists.acs.ohio-state.edu >Subject: DNB librarian >X-Sender: notation@pop.mindspring.com >X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN > >The Dance Notation Bureau librarian, Judith Jaroker, has found another >position and will be leaving us on Feb. 7. I know many of you have worked >with her and will miss her. All of us here at the DNB wish her the best in >her new position. > >We are looking for someone to replace her. If anyone knows of someone >qualified, please pass on the following information. > > >POSITION AVAILABLE > >DANCE LIBRARIAN > >The Dance Notation Bureau is seeking a full-time librarian to maintain and >service its collection of notated dance scores. The DNB library consists >of three collections: the Archive Collection, the Master Collection and >the Circulating Collection. The major component of the collections are >Labanotation scores. Other materials include music scores and tapes; >films; videotapes; written materials; costume, set and prop designs; and >books. > >Applicants should have a masters degree in library science; experience with >computerized library systems; experience with cataloging in MARC format; >experience in database creation and management; knowledge of and interest >in dance; and willingness to learn rudiments of Labanotation. > >The librarian's duties include: > >* responsibility for all Archive and Library functions, including >designing library systems > >* acquisitioning, cataloging and maintaining materials of all media >types, including copying of scores and audiovisual materials; keeping >records of the life and status of the materials and a record of use >restrictions > >* circulation of materials to the academic and professional dance >communities > >* overseeing computerization of DNB catalog and complete cataloging >of collection > >* reference, including telephone, on-site, mail and e-mail > >* bibliographic instruction > >* coordination of purchase and maintenance of all library equipment > >* copyright registration of Labanotated dances > >* production of Notated Theatrical Dances, a listing scores in the >DNB archive and publication liaison for the Dance Notation Bureau Press, >including arranging reprints > >* working with the Director of Restaging to provide materials needed >for reconstructing notated dances > >* working with the Executive Director to plan and write grant >proposals for the library > >* liaison with the Dance Heritage Coalition towards development of a >joint database that would facilitate locating needed materials, >coordination with a standardized description method, and procedures for >submitting materials to the collections that would facilitate acquisition.. > >Salary: $25,000, health benefits after three months. > >If interested please phone Ilene Fox, Executive Director at 212/807-7899 or >e-mail at notation@mindspring.com > >Please send resume and references to Ilene Fox; Dance Notation Bureau; 31 >W. 21st Street, New York, NY 10010. May be e-mailed to above address or >faxed to 212/675-9657. > > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jan 24 06:12:41 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA06207 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:12:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA09773; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:12:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id GAA23368 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:08:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id GAA23352 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:08:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from daemen.edu (daemen.edu [205.232.33.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id GAA18405 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.232.33.25] by daemen.edu (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA29819; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:06:01 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:27:06 +1000 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: joleary@daemen.edu (Dr. James O'Leary) Subject: Aesthetics: ecological aesthetics Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: joleary@daemen.edu (Dr. James O'Leary) Status: O X-Status: Hello! I am a doctoral student and an adjunct associate professor in landscape architecture who is engaged in research and inquiry in the field of ecological aesthetics. While environmental aesthetics has traditionally represented the merging of the areas of empirical aesthetics and environmental psychology, ecological aesthetics, in contrast, represents the merging of the areas of aesthetics and ecology. Of principal concern is the relationship between aesthetic theory and ecological theory and how issues about beauty & appearance and biotic integrity & function can be reconciled. Because ecological aesthetics is an emerging field there is, at present, no unified theory or paradigm, as well as a lack of consistency to how the terms 'ecology' and 'aesthetics' are defined and applied by various theorists. While many authors have lamented on the failure of the field of aesthetics to adequately come to grips with environmental aesthetics, I believe that the challenge for myself, as well as for others in this area, is not to neglect aesthetics in favor of understanding environments but to build a set of comprehensive theories which are rooted in both domains: environment / ecology and aesthetics (particularly broadly defined, non-dualistic, experientially- based aesthetic approaches). As such my own research work continues to be done at the intersections of several disciplines: aesthetics, ecology and cultural studies. I am interested in hearing from, and corresponding, with others who are engaged in similar research work. Perhaps we can exchange papers and ideas. Please feel free to drop me a short note. Thank you. Linda A. Irvine __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jan 23 23:51:07 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA29009 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:51:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA32486; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id XAA02774 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:44:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id XAA02767 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:44:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.11]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id XAA14711 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:44:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.150.128.194] ([142.150.128.194]) by bureau-de-poste.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <794981(2)>; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:43:54 -0500 X-Sender: linda.irvine@mailbox92.utcc.utoronto.ca (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Subject: Aesthetics: ecological aesthetics Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:43:42 -0500 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Status: O X-Status: Hello! I am a doctoral student and an adjunct associate professor in landscape architecture who is engaged in research and inquiry in the field of ecological aesthetics. While environmental aesthetics has traditionally represented the merging of the areas of empirical aesthetics and environmental psychology, ecological aesthetics, in contrast, represents the merging of the areas of aesthetics and ecology. Of principal concern is the relationship between aesthetic theory and ecological theory and how issues about beauty & appearance and biotic integrity & function can be reconciled. Because ecological aesthetics is an emerging field there is, at present, no unified theory or paradigm, as well as a lack of consistency to how the terms 'ecology' and 'aesthetics' are defined and applied by various theorists. While many authors have lamented on the failure of the field of aesthetics to adequately come to grips with environmental aesthetics, I believe that the challenge for myself, as well as for others in this area, is not to neglect aesthetics in favor of understanding environments but to build a set of comprehensive theories which are rooted in both domains: environment / ecology and aesthetics (particularly broadly defined, non-dualistic, experientially- based aesthetic approaches). As such my own research work continues to be done at the intersections of several disciplines: aesthetics, ecology and cultural studies. I am interested in hearing from, and corresponding, with others who are engaged in similar research work. Perhaps we can exchange papers and ideas. Please feel free to drop me a short note. Thank you. Linda A. Irvine __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jan 25 06:25:48 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA27562 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:25:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA18084; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:25:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id GAA23792 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id GAA23785 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from post.tau.ac.il (post.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.11]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA23469 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 06:22:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccsg.tau.ac.il (griffin@ccsg.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.2]) by post.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/TAU.32) with ESMTP id NAA27274 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:22:07 +0200 (IST) Received: from localhost (griffin@localhost) by ccsg.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA26632 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:22:02 +0200 (IST) X-Authentication-Warning: ccsg.tau.ac.il: griffin owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:22:02 +0200 (IST) From: "Robert J. Griffin" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Abrams, etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Robert J. Griffin" Status: O X-Status: Cynthia Freeland graciously forwarded her comments on my reading of Plato's *Timaeus* in relation to M. H. Abrams' *The Mirror and The Lamp*. I joined the list in order to reply properly. Cynthia Freeland is correct to challenge me on the details of the use of the metaphors of fire and mirror in *Timaeus*. Going back to check, I discovered, to my embarassment, that I had read back into Plato things that were merely derived from him. However, and this is the key point, my criticism of Abrams does not depend on *Timaeus* alone. Abrams argues that mirror (mimesis) and lamp (expressiveness) follow each other in chronological order in the late 18th Century. I argue that they are found together as part of a coherent epistemological tradition from Antiquity right up through the Romantic period. Let me sketch out briefly my larger argument. In *Timaeus* itself there is plenty of fire imagery. In humans there are two souls, a mortal one and an immortal one. The mortal one is placed in the breast and its passion is cooled by the lungs. Each human soul is assigned to a star, and those who live well will "return and dwell in his native star" (42b). These stars are gods who are made of fire (40a). Similarly, sight is described as a "communion of the internal and external fires" (46a), because light, a subtle form of fire, is projected out of the eye as a beam or ray (45b-d). The Stoics argued that the first principle of the universe is heavenly fire (aether). A clear exposition of this position is given by Balbus in Cicero's *On the Nature of the Gods*. Commenting on *Timaeus* 89, Balbus reasons: "The first form of motion he attributes to the soul, to which the origin of all motion is to be traced. But since all physical motion arises from the cosmic fire and that fire is moved not by external impulse but by its own will, this fire must itself be soul" (II.32; Penguin, 1972, p. 136). Elsewhere, in the Dream of Scipio, Cicero wrote, "each man has been given a soul from those eternal fires called stars and planets." Compare Virgil, in Book 6 of *The Aeneid* (Dryden's trans.), where Anchises explains to Aeneas how the souls of the dead are purged of dross in the underworld: No speck is left of their habitual stains; But the pure aether of the soul remains. And just before this: Th' etherial vigour is in all the same, And every soul is filled with equal Flame. This tradition is taken up into Christianity and the gods who dwell in the stars become angels. Aquinas says of angels, who are fiery intelligences who mirror the Divine intelligence: "The intellectual light is perfect in the angel, for he is a pure and most clear mirror, as Dionysius says" (*Summa Theologica* pt. 1, q.58, art. 4). Compare Shelley, much later, in the famous passage from *Adonais*: "as each are mirrors of / The fire for which all thirst" (485-86). What does this all add up to? Abrams argues (pp. 57-59) that perception in Plato operates like a mirror image and he goes on to relate this to Locke's empiricism. If the mirror derives from Plato, the notion of a projector of light derives from Plotinus. Here he cites the Cambridge Platonists "(more Plotinists, actually than Platonists)" and Culverwel's statement that "the Spirit of man is the Candle of the Lord" (p. 59). This is the line that leads to the Romantics as opposed to the mirror line of Plato to Locke. However, Abrams completely missed the passage in Locke where he himself cites Culverwel, whom he knew personally, and speaks of reason as "the candle of the Lord set up by himself in men's minds which is is impossible for the breath or power of man wholly to extinguish" (*Essay* iv.iii.20). Locke uses the imagery of light and fire, and he also uses the imagery of mirror, and he is completely traditional in resorting to them. To say that there is a long reign of mirror which is then replaced by lamp or burning fountain is to completely distort this tradition. For the full argument see Robert J. Griffin, *Wordsworth's Pope: A Study in Literary Historiography* (Cambridge, 1996), pp. 111-132. If I ever get a chance, I will correct my statements on *Timaeus* and credit Cynthia Freeland for calling me to order. Bob Griffin Tel Aviv University __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jan 25 17:20:40 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA09381 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:20:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA15779; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA07902 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:19:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA07883 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:19:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from pixie.ntu.ac.uk (pixie.ntu.ac.uk [152.71.0.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA22538 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:19:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from newvax (actually cluster.ntu.ac.uk) by pixie.ntu.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:18:53 +0000 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:15:17 +0100 Message-Id: <97012522151786@newvax.ntu.ac.uk> From: VLA3WOODFRA@ntu.ac.uk (Richard Woodfield - Photography) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: expression and mimesis X-VMS-To: SMTP%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" X-VMS-Cc: VLA3WOODFRA Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: VLA3WOODFRA@ntu.ac.uk (Richard Woodfield - Photography) Status: O X-Status: Hi! Sorry to ride my old hobby horse but a pretty good essay on precisely this subject is Gombrich's "Four theories of artistic expression" published in (groan) Richard Woodfield (ed), "Gombrich on Art and Psychology", Manchester University Press 1996. Isbn 07190 4769 2 - a book that no-one has reviewed yet!!! Best wishes, Richard __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jan 26 19:33:24 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA07932 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA15904; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:32:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id TAA26408 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:30:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id TAA26387 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:30:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA30685 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u068.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.68]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id TAA00369; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:29:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 26 Jan 97 19:18:00 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 26 Jan 97 19:17:33 -0500 From: "Gerald Harnett" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: Ancient@ComCAT.COM, H72@ComCAT.COM, Hellas.Editorial.Board@ComCAT.COM, LogicLists@ComCAT.COM, Several@ComCAT.COM, LogicB@ComCAT.COM, Literature@ComCAT.COM, Medieval@ComCAT.COM, PALeaders@ComCAT.COM, Literary.Theory@ComCAT.COM, Philosophy@ComCAT.COM, SeveralP@ComCAT.COM, Renaissance@ComCAT.COM Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:17:18 -0500 X-Distribution: Moderate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: The Perpetual Aristotle: Spring, 1997 CC: postman@aldinepress.com Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <894A8767642@aldinepress.com> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gerald Harnett" Status: O X-Status: THE PERPETUAL ARISTOTLE The Perpetual Aristotle is a series of 4 on-line seminars in Aristotelian logic commencing this spring under the sponsorship of the Aldine Press, a nonprofit organization. All 4 seminars will be repeated every year in two semesters in tandem with the normal university academic year. The Perpetual Aristotle also hosts a library of on-line information of use to students of Aristotle, including bibliographies and downloadable texts. Two seminars are currently scheduled to begin next Wednesday, Jan 27: Posterior Analytics I, moderated by James South, and Posterior Analytics II, moderated by Scott Carson. Other seminars will be scheduled if we have sufficient expression of interest by subscribers. There is a fee of $100 for participation in each seminar. This fee can be reduced if a subscriber shows evidence of financial need. It is hoped that persons who can afford to do so will contribute more generously to support the mission of the Perpetual Aristotle. To receive a copy of the mission statement of the Perpetual Aristotle and a description of the seminar in which you are interested, send an email message to: postmaster@aldinepress.com with one sentence in the body of the message. This sentence should consist of the word "info" followed by the abbreviation of the seminar in which you are interested. For example, if you are interested in information about Posterior Analytics I, the sentence should read: info anpo1 The director of the Perpetual Aristotle is Gerald Harnett, whom you may contact directly at: harnett@aldinepress.com Below is a list of the seminars: THE FOUR SEMINARS Each of the four seminars is divided into two parts, the first conducted between September and December, the second between January and May, of each year. They are listed below followed by their email addresses: CATEGORIES I categ1@aldinepress.com CATEGORIES II categ2@aldinepress.com PRIOR ANALYTICS I anpr1@aldinepress.com PRIOR ANALYTICS II anpr2@aldinepress.com POSTERIOR ANALYTICS I anpo1@aldinepress.com POSTERIOR ANALYTICS II anpo2@aldinepress.com TOPICS I topics1@aldinepress.com TOPICS II topics2@aldinepress.com *De Interpretione* will be included with either CATEGORIES or PRIOR ANALYTICS. The seminars are organized in one or the other of two formats: the survey and the thematically-oriented discussion. The former is appropriate for both intermediate and advanced students of Aristotle; the latter, for advanced students. _________________________________ The Perpetual Aristotle Gerald Harnett, Dir. The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 EMAIL: harnett@aldinepress.com WWW: http://www.aldinepress.com Tel.: 215-884-1086 Fax: 215-884-3304 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Feb 1 12:30:47 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA06829 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:30:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA25239; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA03814 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:29:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA03806 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:29:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu (pbrand@falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.201]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA00522 for ; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:29:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pbrand@localhost) by falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/regexp($Revision: 1.3 $) id MAA09679; Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:29:08 -0500 (EST) Date: Sat, 1 Feb 1997 12:29:07 -0500 (EST) From: peg brand X-Sender: pbrand@falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: new online feminist art journal (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: peg brand Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 01:09:17 -0500 (EST) From: Women's Network To: pbrand@falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: new online feminist art journal ---------- Forwarded message ---------- n.paradoxa http://web.ukonline.co.uk/members/n.paradoxa/index.htm N.Paradoxa is an international online feminist art journal that seeks to explore the paradoxes of feminism and the art world today. It is published quarterlyand contains full-text articles, booklists & book reviews, information on women's arts organisations. Begun in December 1996, the first issue of N.Paradoxa included articles with titles such as: "Uncanny Resemblances: Restaging Claude Cahun in 'Mise en Scene'", "Gibt es Noch Themen in der Zeitgenoissischen Kunst? Und Welche interessieren Kunstlerinnen heute? -- Are there still themes in Contemporary Art? And if so,which are of interest to Women Artists Today?", and "Paint-Stripping: Feminist Possibilities in Painting After Modernism". Editor: Katy Deepwell Email: k.deepwell@ukonline.co.uk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Feb 5 09:48:56 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA29452 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:48:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA02923; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:55:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id JAA13486 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id JAA13467 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:51:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA05480 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:51:05 -0500 (EST) From: Melchionne@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA09002 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:49:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:49:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970205094914_-1677147160@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: exhibition Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Melchionne@aol.com Status: O X-Status: Kevin Melchionne 302 Bedford Ave., #270 Brooklyn, NY 11211 February 5, 1997 This is to let you know that my current exhibition of paintings at McKinney Arts continues through February 22nd. McKinney Arts is located at 526 East 11th St. in Manhattan. Gallery hours are Saturdays, 11-5, Tuesday and Thursday evenings from 6:30 to 8:30 and by appointment. The gallery can be reached at (212) 677-7807 or mckinneart@aol.com. There will be a reception on Saturday, February 15th, from 6-8 p.m Please forward to other lists, etc. Thanks. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Feb 5 09:59:38 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA04296 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:59:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA21174; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:06:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA18507 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA18490 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:04:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (grunt.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.17]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA08013 for ; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 10:04:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from fox (hamilton@fox.ksu.ksu.edu [129.130.12.11]) by mailhub.cns.ksu.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/mailhub) with SMTP id JAA29013; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:04:14 -0600 (CST) Received: by fox (SMI-8.6/1.34) id JAA06333; Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:04:14 -0600 Date: Wed, 5 Feb 1997 09:04:13 -0600 (CST) From: James R Hamilton X-Sender: hamilton@fox.ksu.ksu.edu To: Melchionne@aol.com cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: exhibition In-Reply-To: <970205094914_-1677147160@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James R Hamilton Status: O X-Status: Sorry, I cannot find 526 East 11th. But best wishes for your show. James R. Hamilton Department of Philosophy (913) 532-6758 Kansas State University hamilton@ksu.ksu.edu *Manhattan, KS 66506* On Wed, 5 Feb 1997 Melchionne@aol.com wrote: > Kevin Melchionne > 302 Bedford Ave., #270 > Brooklyn, NY 11211 > > February 5, 1997 > > This is to let you know that my current exhibition of paintings at McKinney > Arts continues through February 22nd. McKinney Arts is located at 526 East > 11th St. in Manhattan. Gallery hours are Saturdays, 11-5, Tuesday and > Thursday evenings from 6:30 to 8:30 and by appointment. The gallery can be > reached at (212) 677-7807 or mckinneart@aol.com. > > There will be a reception on Saturday, February 15th, from 6-8 p.m > > Please forward to other lists, etc. Thanks. > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Feb 6 16:20:48 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA28509 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:20:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA24453; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA05151 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:16:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA05144 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:16:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from bernie.compusmart.ab.ca (root@bernie.compusmart.ab.ca [199.185.130.34]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA14080 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:16:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [206.75.84.67] (remote24.compusmart.ab.ca [199.185.131.34]) by bernie.compusmart.ab.ca (8.7.4/8.6.5) with SMTP id PAA28744 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:07:28 -0700 (MST) X-Sender: michaels@mail.compusmart.ab.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:21:08 -0600 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: michaels@compusmart.ab.ca (Shane) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: michaels@compusmart.ab.ca (Shane) Status: O X-Status: Hello, I suppose you may get other people recommending the following books to you, but these are ones I have that I'm finding in some way or other most helpful re pomo & architecture. I am sending these to the list because of what might be general interest for such a biblio: Diana Agrest: -ARCHITECTURE FROM WITHOUT: THEORETICAL FRAMINGS FOR A CRITICAL PRACTICE Brent Brolin: -FLIGHT OF FANCY: THE BANISHMENT AND RETURN OF ORNAMNET Dana Cuff: -ARCHITECTURE: THE STORY OF PRACTICE Nan Ellin: -POSTMODERN URBANISM Diane Ghirado: -ARCHITECTURE AFTER MODERNISM David Harvey: -THE CONDTION OF POSTMODERNITY: AN INQUIRY INTO THE ORIGINS OF CULTURAL CHANGE Charles Jencks: -THE LANGUAGE OF POSTMODERN ARCHITECTURE -WHAT IS POSTMODERNISM? -THE ARCHITECTURE OF THE JUMPING UNIVERSE Kojin Katarani: -ARCHITECTURE AS METAPHOR: LANGUAGE, NUMBER, MONEY Heinrich Klotz: -THE HISTORY OF POSTMODERN ARCHITECTURE Magali S. Larson: -BEHIND THE POSTMODERN FACADE: ARCHTITECTURAL CHANGE IN LATE TWENTIETH CENTURY AMERICA Andreas Papadakis, Catherine Cooke & Andrew Benjamin (eds): -DECONSTRUCTION: OMNIBUS VOLUME Robert Venturi: -CONTRADICTION AND COMPLEXITY IN ARCHITECTURE -LEARNING FROM LAS VEGAS James Wines: -DE-ARCHITECTURE These are all (except for Venturi & Wines) written post-1980. If you need further data, please let me know. Shane ------------ >dear all, > >I am an undergraduate student of architecture. And I'm doing a study on >aesthetic values in our 'postmodern' condition, particulary on >architectural aesthetic and concepts of 'postmodern' space. > >I'm sure that not all of us would agree with 'postmodern' term. But as >an element of our contemporary-surrounding-continuum, space and >architecture of our time need to be reconceptualized. > >Would anyone in this list recommend >books/reviews/articles/sources/webpages/etc about these subjects ? > >I'm looking forward to hearing you. > >Thank You, >Undi Gunawan > >PS. Sorry for my limited English. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Feb 6 16:31:09 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA28837 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:31:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA07938; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:28:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA05787 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA05750 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:27:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from stingray.bwbr.com (stingray.bwbr.com [207.108.81.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA01455 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 16:27:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from dan.bwbr.com (dn5450.bwbr.com [207.108.81.151]) by stingray.bwbr.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA20659; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:21:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702062121.PAA20659@stingray.bwbr.com> From: "Dan Noyes" To: "undi gunawan" , Subject: Re: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 15:24:59 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Dan Noyes" Status: O X-Status: ..."the out of breath spectator was at once bedazzled by roofs, chimneys, streets, bridges, squares, spires, bell-towers. Everything struck him at once, the carved gable, the pointed roof, the turret suspended from the corner of the walls, the stone pyramid from the eleventh century, the slate obelisk from the fifteenth, the bare round tower of the castle-keep, the decorated square tower of the church, the big, the small, the massive, and the ethereal. The eye was held long at every level of this labyrinth, where there was nothing which did not have its own originality, its own reason, its own genius, its own beauty, nothing that did not belong to the art of architecture, from the smallest house, with its carved and painted front, its exposed timbers, its rounded doorway, its overhanging upper stories"... Victor Hugo not postmodern. "she takes a cup of coffee and eats fast food before or after the callage of dreaming. She takes light meals only- spaghetti at heaviest - - in this dwelling. Toyo Ito postmodern. but: the postmodern representation was no more than an omniscent neo- all of architecture is walls and guaze. . . within the spaces they call emptyI roam wandering in thought of that which turns this place inward and yet this in-between swells to let me alone dwell cracks are my windows imperfections my furniture rest sticking to my heals I am home as you can tell from this response the postmodern is a condition- a process- a way of doing I would argue that it is not an end product but then again I would usually argue that any ism is really an approach rather than a result good luck in your perponderances ---------- > From: undi gunawan > To: aesthetics@indiana.edu > Subject: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? > Date: Thursday, February 06, 1997 11:43 AM > > dear all, > > I am an undergraduate student of architecture. And I'm doing a study on > aesthetic values in our 'postmodern' condition, particulary on > architectural aesthetic and concepts of 'postmodern' space. > > I'm sure that not all of us would agree with 'postmodern' term. But as > an element of our contemporary-surrounding-continuum, space and > architecture of our time need to be reconceptualized. > > Would anyone in this list recommend > books/reviews/articles/sources/webpages/etc about these subjects ? > > I'm looking forward to hearing you. > > Thank You, > Undi Gunawan > > PS. Sorry for my limited English. > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Feb 6 14:18:46 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA25384 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA29707; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:14:32 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA06253 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:06:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA06246 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:06:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from admin.cyberenet.net (mail@admin.cyberenet.net [204.213.252.6]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id OAA11156 for ; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:06:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ux1.melsa.net.id [206.106.184.2] by admin.cyberenet.net with smtp (Exim 1.59 #1) id 0vsZ8l-0005K6-00; Thu, 6 Feb 1997 14:05:51 -0500 Received: from undi.melsa.net.id by ux1.melsa.net.id with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0vsYsw-000MJMC; Fri, 7 Feb 97 01:49 JVT Message-ID: <32FA183C.78EB@melsa.net.id> Date: Fri, 07 Feb 1997 00:43:24 +0700 From: undi gunawan X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: undi gunawan Status: O X-Status: dear all, I am an undergraduate student of architecture. And I'm doing a study on aesthetic values in our 'postmodern' condition, particulary on architectural aesthetic and concepts of 'postmodern' space. I'm sure that not all of us would agree with 'postmodern' term. But as an element of our contemporary-surrounding-continuum, space and architecture of our time need to be reconceptualized. Would anyone in this list recommend books/reviews/articles/sources/webpages/etc about these subjects ? I'm looking forward to hearing you. Thank You, Undi Gunawan PS. Sorry for my limited English. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Feb 7 06:37:37 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA11919 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:37:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA14013; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:36:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id GAA07913 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:33:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id GAA07906 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from goggins.bath.ac.uk (pp@goggins.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.13]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA06213 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 06:33:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from bath.ac.uk (actually host mary.bath.ac.uk) by goggins.bath.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:33:39 +0000 Received: from abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk by mary.bath.ac.uk id aa14772; 7 Feb 97 11:33 GMT Received: by abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <01BC14E9.F9E98EE0@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk>; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:28:01 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC14E9.F9E98EE0@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk> From: Andrew Ballantyne To: "'aesthetics@indiana.edu'" Subject: Aesthetics: Postmodern readers Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:27:59 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Andrew Ballantyne Status: O X-Status: Part of the problem with pinning postmodernism down is that it means = different things in different disciplines, and in architectecture it has = been particularly associated with buildings which have knowingly-kitsch = trimmings. If it's picture books you want, to give you an idea of what = these things look like, and a general orientation then go to Charles Jencks, The Language of Post-Modern Architecture (at least 6 = editions from 1976-1991, each one bigger than the one before) Diana Agrest, Architecture After Modernism (1996) -- this is up to date = and is a very reliable guide. For reading (without so many pictures) in a wider cultural arena go for=20 John Thakara, Design After Modernism (1988) Thomas Docherty, Postmodernism, a reader (1993) Charles Jencks, The Post-Modern Reader (1992) That should help ... then start working through Shane's list. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Feb 7 11:00:26 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA03397 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 11:00:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA28818; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA02423 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:57:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA02409 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:57:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from sardonyx.tufts.edu (root@sardonyx.tufts.edu [130.64.5.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA22926 for ; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:57:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by sardonyx.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA06405; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jharbeck@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA24804; Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:57:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 1997 10:57:07 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck To: Dan Noyes cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? In-Reply-To: <199702062121.PAA20659@stingray.bwbr.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O X-Status: I love that Hugo quotation. Whence exactly comes it? (Literature student? Not I.) I find it fascinating especially in that there is something in many ways exquisitely postmodern, or at least potentially so, in the aesthetic milieu described, while it is of course in no way intentionally so. Question: do we think that postmodernism is an attempt to recreate deliberately what has always been adventitious? And is there something essentially different about a stylistic pastiche if it has been deliberately created--that is, are the quotation marks in some way (beyond the newness of the material and the slight alterations of the form, and perhaps the fragmentary nature of the combined elements) embedded in the material, so that it has no hope ever of simply standing for itself? A mode of perception, yes, much rather than an actual material state... Somebody once, on this list I think, suggested what might come after the postmodern. What was it? (Not the end of history.) James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Feb 8 19:25:54 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA06174 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 19:25:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA11844; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 19:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id TAA28940 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 19:22:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id TAA28896 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 19:22:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.Hawaii.Edu (root@relay1.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.3.53]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id TAA20492 for ; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 19:22:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu ([128.171.44.6]) by relay1.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <587581(3)>; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:18:37 -1000 Received: from localhost by uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <17262(10)>; Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:21:50 -1000 Date: Sat, 8 Feb 1997 14:21:44 -1000 From: Anthony J Palmer X-Sender: apalmer@uhunix1 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Inquiry to Ralph Smith Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Anthony J Palmer Status: O X-Status: Ralph: I do not have your e-mail address so I need to use the aesthetics list to reach you. On the Philosophy of Music Education International Symposium III, we can use some assistance. Can you get back to me and I will e-mail you directly. thank you so much. Incidentally, does anyone know how to reach Deeanne Bogdan by e-mail? She is at the University of Toronto in teh Dept of History and Philosophy of Eduction. Thanks in advance for any word. anthony j. palmer, u. of Hawaii at Manoa. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Feb 10 06:14:29 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA06911 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:14:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA20772; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 06:03:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id FAA09705 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id FAA09682 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:57:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from goggins.bath.ac.uk (pp@goggins.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.13]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA17536 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 05:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from bath.ac.uk (actually host mary.bath.ac.uk) by goggins.bath.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:55:57 +0000 Received: from abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk by mary.bath.ac.uk id aa15321; 10 Feb 97 10:55 GMT Received: by abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <01BC1740.330F0760@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk>; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:50:16 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC1740.330F0760@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk> From: Andrew Ballantyne To: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: RE: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:50:14 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Andrew Ballantyne Status: O X-Status: There is nothing much "embedded in" the fabric of buildings if they are = taken away from a cultural context. The really postmodern move is to = see that buildings are always considered in one cultural context or = another (the cultural context of the observer) which is not inherent in = the building's form. There is no possibility of standing outside of all culture in order to = make observations. If you look at Classical architecture through Renaissance culture then = certain aspects of it seem important. If you look at it through = Romantic culture then it is quite a different thing, even when the same = forms are being considered. What it actually meant in ancient times is = not at all obvious. When Irish Catholics built neo-Greek churches in the nineteenth century, = they did so because they felt kinship with the (then) modern Greeks' = struggle for independence from the Turks. This meaning was real for a = part of the population and went unnoticed by others. It was in no way = implied in any earlier uses of Classical Greek Orders, as it would have = to be if meaning were inherent in the form. A culture may (on occasion) be inferred from a building, but can never = be inherent in it. ---------- From: James Harbeck[SMTP:jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu] Sent: 07 February 1997 10:57 To: Dan Noyes Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? I love that Hugo quotation. Whence exactly comes it? (Literature student? Not I.) I find it fascinating especially in that there is something in many ways exquisitely postmodern, or at least potentially = so, in the aesthetic milieu described, while it is of course in no way intentionally so. Question: do we think that postmodernism is an attempt to recreate deliberately what has always been adventitious? And is there something essentially different about a stylistic pastiche if it has = been deliberately created--that is, are the quotation marks in some way = (beyond the newness of the material and the slight alterations of the form, and perhaps the fragmentary nature of the combined elements) embedded in the material, so that it has no hope ever of simply standing for itself? A mode of perception, yes, much rather than an actual material state... Somebody once, on this list I think, suggested what might come after the postmodern. What was it? (Not the end of history.) James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asa __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Feb 10 11:06:38 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA11010 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA32020; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:04:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA10619 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:02:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA10585 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from sardonyx.tufts.edu (root@sardonyx.tufts.edu [130.64.5.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA16648 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:02:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by sardonyx.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA13149; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:01:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jharbeck@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA14274; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:01:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:01:55 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck To: Andrew Ballantyne cc: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: RE: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? In-Reply-To: <01BC1740.330F0760@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O X-Status: It may be taken as understood that all aesthetic perception is embedded in cultural understanding. I did not mean to imply any sort of essentialist position--in fact, I thought that the basic assumption that perception is always tutored was so standard that I didn't think it necessary to state it overtly. No, the question was more along the lines of (and I should have framed it this way in the first place): Is there any necessary formal difference between a style qua that style and its usage in a postmodern context? We know that most postmodern usages also make some sort of alteration on the style, however insignificant, so that a person who is an expert in the formal qualities of that style in its original cultural context would, on being presented a postmodern usage without indication of postmodern context, still be able to identify it as in some detectable way altered from the original style. But if I were to build a neighborhood of houses from all sorts of different styles and cultural idioms with the greatest faithfulness to detail possible, so that experts in the formal details of those idioms, on being presented photographs of the houses without indication of their location or age, would not be able to say that they were not authentic, would that still be postmodern simply by dint of its intention? Or do we require postmodern usages to be more disingenuous, using details in ways such that any sample large enough to produce a judgement of authenticity would have formal evidence of its inauthenticity (beyond the age of the material used)? Would I have to build the houses out of the "wrong" materials? Or is the neighborhood bricolage sufficient? Moreover, what if I were to build an ENTIRE neighborhood in the middle of, say, Phoenix in as authentically, say, Egyptian a style as possible? And, finally, what if I were to GO TO Egypt and build an Egyptian style neighborhood to be inhabited by Egyptians, the only postmodern thing about it being my own intention and the fact that I am not Egyptian--both details that would be utterly inaccessible to anyone simply making a strightforward inspection of the actual properties? In short, is postmodernism defined entirely by intention? Any other style can always be identified by specific uses of form, so that we can say whether something is in that style or even at least imitating that style. IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE "IMITATION" POSTMODERN STYLE? Or the postmodern entirely a meta-style? To my knowledge there is some disagreement on this question. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Feb 10 15:35:24 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA18374 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 15:35:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA02972; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:47:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA23176 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:45:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA23131 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:45:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from stingray.bwbr.com (stingray.bwbr.com [207.108.81.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA19027 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:45:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from dan.bwbr.com (dn5450.bwbr.com [207.108.81.151]) by stingray.bwbr.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05969; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:37:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702101637.KAA05969@stingray.bwbr.com> From: "Dan Noyes" To: "James Harbeck" , "Andrew Ballantyne" Cc: Subject: Re: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:38:31 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Dan Noyes" Status: O X-Status: If we are still addressing postmodern aesthetics within the context of architecture, it may be helpfull to specify which realm. -postmodern classicism -postmodern venacular -postmodern deconstruction -postmodern labeling -etc. if we talk about the aesthetic of the product we are losing sight of the depth and breath of that which produced the end product this is a pronounced shortsightedness in most of the academic essaying that I hear today if we talk about and analyze what led to the product rather than creating our own misconstrued trails after the created form we might create a more essential view ---------- > From: James Harbeck > To: Andrew Ballantyne > Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu > Subject: RE: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? > Date: Monday, February 10, 1997 10:01 AM > > It may be taken as understood that all aesthetic perception is > embedded in cultural understanding. I did not mean to imply any sort of > essentialist position--in fact, I thought that the basic assumption that > perception is always tutored was so standard that I didn't think it > necessary to state it overtly. No, the question was more along the lines > of (and I should have framed it this way in the first place): Is there any > necessary formal difference between a style qua that style and its usage > in a postmodern context? We know that most postmodern usages also make > some sort of alteration on the style, however insignificant, so that a > person who is an expert in the formal qualities of that style in its > original cultural context would, on being presented a postmodern usage > without indication of postmodern context, still be able to identify it as > in some detectable way altered from the original style. But if I were to > build a neighborhood of houses from all sorts of different styles and > cultural idioms with the greatest faithfulness to detail possible, so that > experts in the formal details of those idioms, on being presented > photographs of the houses without indication of their location or age, > would not be able to say that they were not authentic, would that still be > postmodern simply by dint of its intention? Or do we require postmodern > usages to be more disingenuous, using details in ways such that any sample > large enough to produce a judgement of authenticity would have formal > evidence of its inauthenticity (beyond the age of the material used)? > Would I have to build the houses out of the "wrong" materials? Or is the > neighborhood bricolage sufficient? Moreover, what if I were to build an > ENTIRE neighborhood in the middle of, say, Phoenix in as authentically, > say, Egyptian a style as possible? And, finally, what if I were to GO TO > Egypt and build an Egyptian style neighborhood to be inhabited by > Egyptians, the only postmodern thing about it being my own intention and > the fact that I am not Egyptian--both details that would be utterly > inaccessible to anyone simply making a strightforward inspection of the > actual properties? In short, is postmodernism defined entirely by > intention? Any other style can always be identified by specific uses of > form, so that we can say whether something is in that style or even at > least imitating that style. IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE "IMITATION" POSTMODERN > STYLE? Or the postmodern entirely a meta-style? > To my knowledge there is some disagreement on this question. > James Harbeck. > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Feb 10 11:46:51 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA12060 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA08468; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:46:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA22509 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:44:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA22465 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:44:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from stingray.bwbr.com (stingray.bwbr.com [207.108.81.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA16932 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 11:44:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from dan.bwbr.com (dn5450.bwbr.com [207.108.81.151]) by stingray.bwbr.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA05972; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:37:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702101637.KAA05972@stingray.bwbr.com> From: "Dan Noyes" To: "James Harbeck" , "Andrew Ballantyne" Cc: Subject: Re: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 10:41:14 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Dan Noyes" Status: O X-Status: If we are still addressing postmodern aesthetics within the context of architecture, it may be helpfull to specify which realm. -postmodern classicism -postmodern venacular -postmodern deconstruction -postmodern labeling -etc. if we talk about the aesthetic of the product we are losing sight of the depth and breath of that which produced the end product this is a pronounced shortsightedness in most of the academic essaying that I hear today if we talk about and analyze what led to the product rather than creating our own misconstrued trails after the created form we might create a more essential view ---------- > From: James Harbeck > To: Andrew Ballantyne > Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu > Subject: RE: Aesthetics: What is 'post'modern's aesthetics ? > Date: Monday, February 10, 1997 10:01 AM > > It may be taken as understood that all aesthetic perception is > embedded in cultural understanding. I did not mean to imply any sort of > essentialist position--in fact, I thought that the basic assumption that > perception is always tutored was so standard that I didn't think it > necessary to state it overtly. No, the question was more along the lines > of (and I should have framed it this way in the first place): Is there any > necessary formal difference between a style qua that style and its usage > in a postmodern context? We know that most postmodern usages also make > some sort of alteration on the style, however insignificant, so that a > person who is an expert in the formal qualities of that style in its > original cultural context would, on being presented a postmodern usage > without indication of postmodern context, still be able to identify it as > in some detectable way altered from the original style. But if I were to > build a neighborhood of houses from all sorts of different styles and > cultural idioms with the greatest faithfulness to detail possible, so that > experts in the formal details of those idioms, on being presented > photographs of the houses without indication of their location or age, > would not be able to say that they were not authentic, would that still be > postmodern simply by dint of its intention? Or do we require postmodern > usages to be more disingenuous, using details in ways such that any sample > large enough to produce a judgement of authenticity would have formal > evidence of its inauthenticity (beyond the age of the material used)? > Would I have to build the houses out of the "wrong" materials? Or is the > neighborhood bricolage sufficient? Moreover, what if I were to build an > ENTIRE neighborhood in the middle of, say, Phoenix in as authentically, > say, Egyptian a style as possible? And, finally, what if I were to GO TO > Egypt and build an Egyptian style neighborhood to be inhabited by > Egyptians, the only postmodern thing about it being my own intention and > the fact that I am not Egyptian--both details that would be utterly > inaccessible to anyone simply making a strightforward inspection of the > actual properties? In short, is postmodernism defined entirely by > intention? Any other style can always be identified by specific uses of > form, so that we can say whether something is in that style or even at > least imitating that style. IS IT POSSIBLE TO HAVE "IMITATION" POSTMODERN > STYLE? Or the postmodern entirely a meta-style? > To my knowledge there is some disagreement on this question. > James Harbeck. > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Feb 10 23:20:15 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA27667 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:20:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA13902; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:19:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id XAA11565 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:18:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id XAA11549 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:17:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from athens.emi.net (emi.net [204.181.45.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA25180 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:17:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.2.80.249] (csfl005.emi.net [208.2.80.249]) by athens.emi.net (8.7.5/8.6.10) with ESMTP id XAA31541 for ; Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:22:51 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 10 Feb 1997 23:20:51 -0500 To: Aesthetics From: Keith Snider Subject: Aesthetics: RE: POST-MODERNIST AESTHETICS Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Keith Snider Status: O X-Status: To all concerned, Again, I am troubled about the direction the debate concerning "post-modern aesthetics" has taken. And again, I feel a caveat is appropriate: problems of "style" and "aesthetics" are two very different sets of problems. First off, when we use the word "style" we are establishing arbitrary categories of knowledge - the arbitrary categories of knowledge POST-MODERNISM SEEKS TO UNDERMINE (i.e. Foucault, Derrida, de Mann). Therefore lets not confuse the question of "post modernist aesthetics" with that of style - the problems concerning aesthetic and style only meet in "blind alleys." To get our bearings straight, and to hopefully get to "post modernist aesthetics" let us look at how Kant defines "aesthetics." "This perplexity about a principle (whether it is subjective or objective) presents itself mainly IN THOSE JUDGEMENTS THAT WE CALL AESTHETICAL, which concern the beautiful and the sublime of nature or art. And, nevertheless, the critical investigation of a principle of judgment in these is the most important part of a critique of this faculty. For although they do not by themselves contribute to the knowledge of things, yet they belong to cognitive faculty alone and point to an immediate reference of this faculty to the feeling of pleasure or pain according to some principle a priori." (Kant, pg. 5) and therefore, aesthetics deals only with judgments whose concern is weather or not an object causes pleasure or pain within the subject - and how this judgment made is based upon a defined system of knowledge or principle a priori. Not getting to deep into the philosophical problems that Kant presents to us, his definition of aesthetics is useful because he limits it to a problem of subjective judgment. We are not concerned with style. It does not matter if one builds in International, Baroque, French, Prairie, or Classical - what concerns us as architectural subjects is how we make a judgments about what we find beautiful as opposed to what we find repulsive. In this sense, what concerns us as architectural subjects is how our knowledge of beauty is organized according to particular epistemological system. This is why Peter Eisenman states the debate architects are having concerning "Post Modernism" is a hollow debate because for the most part, the epistemological system that constructs our knowledge of the architectural object is still determined by the "Humanist" episteme; because architecture was never structured into the Modernist episteme (2 - Eisenman). In other words we as architects are still limited to the same system of knowledge that was formulated during the Renaissance; in that, the architectural object is still organized through the dialect created between the facade and plan; a system derived from the development of the perspective. Whereas the other types of knowledge (painting, science, literature, economics) developed during the nineteenth century into their modernist forms; but architecture was unable to make this leap. What does all of this mean? As for the arts at the end of the nineteenth century, this meant the looking subject was no longer "reading" the meaning the artist had constructed, because the interpretive act was no longer confined to the one who creates the object. The artist no longer sought to interpret the forms of nature and construct them in a way so as to formulate a meaning to be read (look at any Classical Painting). Instead meaning and the problem of interpreting the object was something that subject had to determine himself. In other words, a subjective ideology develops during the nineteenth century and criticism becomes the primary way of defining meaning in the arts - and hence Hugo's quote - with the development of the book spells the death of architecture. Architecture's historical role as one which defines meaning - and that which represents the Order of society has been overtaken by the written word. And as I say again, Hugo shrewdly defines the problem of modern architecture when he writes: "This will kill that, the book will kill the building." .... "It was the presentiment that in changing its form human thought was going to change its mode of expression, that the most important idea of each generation would no longer be written in the same material and in the same way, the book of stone, so solid and durable, would give way to the book of paper, even more solid and durable. In that connection the archdeacon's vague formula had a second meaning; it signified that one art would dethrone another. It meant: printing will kill architecture." (Hugo,192-193) Because Hugo knows architects are still thinking in terms of facade and plan. As Hugo states above, we architects are stuck in one "form of human thought." - for proof all he has to do is look over to the Beaux-Arts a few doors down to see the system of representation that was being taught (i.e., facade and plan). Whereas for Hugo, architecture is something whose power derives from a looking subject who is interacting with the object - and therefore the metaphor of Quasimodo. Quasimodo is not just the caretaker of Notre Dame de Paris, he is in a sense at one with the building; "he is the building's soul." When Quasimodo dies, architecture dies. The power of architecture is the lived experience - But how do we make judgements concerning this lived experience? Now, if we are to think about a "post-modernist" aesthetic - here are the questions that we as architects must examine. (Very loosely formulated) 1. How is It possible to "think" of the architectural object outside of the dialectic created between the facade and plan? 2. Do we abandon this dialectic as a model of knowledge? If so what replaces it? 3. Is our knowledge of the architectural object confined to this dialectic? 4. And if there is a new system of knowledge that we use to construct the architectural object, how will it inform us when we judge architectural beauty? 5. Would a "post-modernist aesthetic" judge architecture in the Kantian sense - as an object? Or does there have to be an object for us to judge the architectural experience? Can the experience of a non-object be an architectural experiece? [Such as the epistemological "structure" from which it is formed? (Eco) or the production of "atmospheres" (Gernot Bohme)? Or something else like "events"? (Tschumi)?] 6. Therefore, is it possible to think of architecture if we are not thinking about an object? 7. Is architecture limited to the construction of objects? 8. Is architecture even possible in "post-modernist" thought? Look forward to your response, Keith Snider ------------------------------ Footnotes. 1. Kant, I. "Critique of Judgement," trans. J.H. Bernard. (New York, NY: Hafner Press, 1951). 2. Eisenman, P. "Post-Functionalism," published in "Theorizing a New Agenda for Architecture: An Anthology of Architectural Theory, 1965-1995." ed. Kate Nesbitt. (New York, NY: Princeton Architectural Press, 1996), pg. 80-83. 3. Hugo, V. "Notre-Dame de Paris," trans. A. Krailsheimer. (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993). - S T R A T E G I E S A G A I N S T A R C H I T E C T U R E - 1940 N.E. 31st Court Lighthouse Point, Florida _________________________________ K. Snider "Architecture only survives where it negates the form that society expects of it. Where it negates itself by transgressing the limits history has set for it." - Bernard Tschumi, __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Feb 11 09:34:54 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA07090 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:34:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA20086; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:34:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id JAA01845 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id JAA01822 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout08.mail.aol.com (emout08.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.23]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA18908 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:30:59 -0500 (EST) From: LBusbea@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout08.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id JAA00798 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:29:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 09:29:42 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970211092940_-1542576298@emout08.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: RE: POST-MODERNIST AESTHETICS Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: LBusbea@aol.com Status: O X-Status: I fuly agree with K. Snider that the question as to which stylistic characteristics constitute PM, is putting the cairrage before the horse, so to speak. However, if we follow Tschumi's hardline deconstructionism too closely, we will find that negating the facade/plan form, is really as constricting as that historical paradigm. Any PM aesthetic, it seems to me, is defined by its dynamic relation to history. As far as I am concerned, the term Postmodern is premature, and this periodization (which is quite helpful at times) is often taken as a real metaphorical break (pace Lacan) in history, signalling a new epoch. This is, I think, unfortunate, and the ramifications of such a move are evident in a discourse such as the current one, in which so many conflicting (but yet compelling) views are held simultaneously. For if this new era is truly upon us, the old categories of style, intention, and even mimesis will find themselves outmoded if applied in the same ways as before. However, PM arch. is still wrestling with these terms in a genuine way - even if, at times it seems hopelessly ironic. Lawrence B. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Feb 11 14:28:00 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA14795 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:27:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA06042; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:26:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA15491 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:18:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA15478 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:18:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from nova.wright.edu (nova.wright.edu [130.108.128.43]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA29365 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from nova.wright.edu by nova.wright.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #2485) id <01IFAJQPLE9S90ZRKA@nova.wright.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:19:32 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 14:19:32 -0500 (EST) From: CHUCK TAYLOR Subject: Aesthetics: Feminist Aesth/Text Suggestions To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CHUCK TAYLOR Status: O X-Status: A colleague and I are scheduled to teach Feminist Aesthetics this coming Fall. We would appreciate suggestions of texts from people who have actually used some recently. Comments as to why the texts seemed to work well would be greatly appreciated. Chuck Taylor Department of Philosophy Wright State University Dayton, OH ctaylor@wright.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Feb 11 15:07:52 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA16088 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA06220; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:04:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA19239 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:00:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA19212 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:00:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from stingray.bwbr.com (stingray.bwbr.com [207.108.81.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA13801 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:00:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from dan.bwbr.com (dn5450.bwbr.com [207.108.81.151]) by stingray.bwbr.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA15996; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:55:07 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199702111955.NAA15996@stingray.bwbr.com> From: "Dan Noyes" To: "Keith Snider" , "Aesthetics" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: RE: POST-MODERNIST AESTHETICS Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 13:58:42 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Dan Noyes" Status: O X-Status: great Tschumi quote! I might be on the wrong e-mail list however, since I thought it might be relevant to contemplate the role of methodology as it leads us to an aesthetic I speak out of frustration since I thrive in the making of an aesthete, maybe that is left for the "artists" someone set me straight ---------- > From: Keith Snider > To: Aesthetics > Subject: Aesthetics: RE: POST-MODERNIST AESTHETICS > Date: Monday, February 10, 1997 10:20 PM > > To all concerned, > > Again, I am troubled about the direction the debate concerning "post-modern > aesthetics" has taken. And again, I feel a caveat is appropriate: problems > of "style" and "aesthetics" are two very different sets of problems. First > off, when we use the word "style" we are establishing arbitrary categories > of knowledge - the arbitrary categories of knowledge POST-MODERNISM SEEKS > TO UNDERMINE (i.e. Foucault, Derrida, de Mann). Therefore lets not confuse > the question of "post modernist aesthetics" with that of style - the > problems concerning aesthetic and style only meet in "blind alleys." To get > our bearings straight, and to hopefully get to "post modernist aesthetics" > let us look at how Kant defines "aesthetics." > > "This perplexity about a principle (whether it is subjective or objective) > presents itself mainly IN THOSE JUDGEMENTS THAT WE CALL AESTHETICAL, which > concern the beautiful and the sublime of nature or art. And, nevertheless, > the critical investigation of a principle of judgment in these is the most > important part of a critique of this faculty. For although they do not by > themselves contribute to the knowledge of things, yet they belong to > cognitive faculty alone and point to an immediate reference of this faculty > to the feeling of pleasure or pain according to some principle a priori." > (Kant, pg. 5) > > and therefore, aesthetics deals only with judgments whose concern is > weather or not an object causes pleasure or pain within the subject - and > how this judgment made is based upon a defined system of knowledge or > principle a priori. > > Not getting to deep into the philosophical problems that Kant presents to > us, his definition of aesthetics is useful because he limits it to a > problem of subjective judgment. We are not concerned with style. It does > not matter if one builds in International, Baroque, French, Prairie, or > Classical - what concerns us as architectural subjects is how we make a > judgments about what we find beautiful as opposed to what we find > repulsive. In this sense, what concerns us as architectural subjects is how > our knowledge of beauty is organized according to particular > epistemological system. This is why Peter Eisenman states the debate > architects are having concerning "Post Modernism" is a hollow debate > because for the most part, the epistemological system that constructs our > knowledge of the architectural object is still determined by the "Humanist" > episteme; because architecture was never structured into the Modernist > episteme (2 - Eisenman). In other words we as architects are still limited > to the same system of knowledge that was formulated during the Renaissance; > in that, the architectural object is still organized through the dialect > created between the facade and plan; a system derived from the development > of the perspective. Whereas the other types of knowledge (painting, > science, literature, economics) developed during the nineteenth century > into their modernist forms; but architecture was unable to make this leap. > What does all of this mean? As for the arts at the end of the nineteenth > century, this meant the looking subject was no longer "reading" the meaning > the artist had constructed, because the interpretive act was no longer > confined to the one who creates the object. The artist no longer sought to > interpret the forms of nature and construct them in a way so as to > formulate a meaning to be read (look at any Classical Painting). Instead > meaning and the problem of interpreting the object was something that > subject had to determine himself. In other words, a subjective ideology > develops during the nineteenth century and criticism becomes the primary > way of defining meaning in the arts - and hence Hugo's quote - with the > development of the book spells the death of architecture. Architecture's > historical role as one which defines meaning - and that which represents > the Order of society has been overtaken by the written word. And as I say > again, Hugo shrewdly defines the problem of modern architecture when he > writes: > > "This will kill that, the book will kill the building." .... "It was the > presentiment that in changing its form human thought was going to change > its mode of expression, that the most important idea of each generation > would no longer be written in the same material and in the same way, the > book of stone, so solid and durable, would give way to the book of paper, > even more solid and durable. In that connection the archdeacon's vague > formula had a second meaning; it signified that one art would dethrone > another. It meant: printing will kill architecture." (Hugo,192-193) > > > Because Hugo knows architects are still thinking in terms of facade and > plan. As Hugo states above, we architects are stuck in one "form of human > thought." - for proof all he has to do is look over to the Beaux-Arts a few > doors down to see the system of representation that was being taught > (i.e., facade and plan). Whereas for Hugo, architecture is something whose > power derives from a looking subject who is interacting with the object - > and therefore the metaphor of Quasimodo. Quasimodo is not just the > caretaker of Notre Dame de Paris, he is in a sense at one with the > building; "he is the building's soul." When Quasimodo dies, architecture > dies. The power of architecture is the lived experience - But how do we > make judgements concerning this lived experience? > > Now, if we are to think about a "post-modernist" aesthetic - here are the > questions that we as architects must examine. (Very loosely formulated) > > 1. How is It possible to "think" of the architectural object outside of the > dialectic created between the facade and plan? > > 2. Do we abandon this dialectic as a model of knowledge? If so what > replaces it? > > 3. Is our knowledge of the architectural object confined to this dialectic? > > 4. And if there is a new system of knowledge that we use to construct the > architectural object, how will it inform us when we judge architectural > beauty? > > 5. Would a "post-modernist aesthetic" judge architecture in the Kantian > sense - as an object? Or does there have to be an object for us to judge > the architectural experience? Can the experience of a non-object be an > architectural experiece? [Such as the epistemological "structure" from > which it is formed? (Eco) or the production of "atmospheres" (Gernot > Bohme)? Or something else like "events"? (Tschumi)?] > > 6. Therefore, is it possible to think of architecture if we are not > thinking about an object? > > 7. Is architecture limited to the construction of objects? > > 8. Is architecture even possible in "post-modernist" thought? > > Look forward to your response, > Keith Snider > > ------------------------------ > Footnotes. > 1. Kant, I. "Critique of Judgement," trans. J.H. Bernard. (New York, NY: > Hafner Press, 1951). > > 2. Eisenman, P. "Post-Functionalism," published in "Theorizing a New Agenda > for Architecture: An Anthology of Architectural Theory, 1965-1995." ed. > Kate Nesbitt. (New York, NY: Princeton Architectural Press, 1996), pg. > 80-83. > > 3. Hugo, V. "Notre-Dame de Paris," trans. A. Krailsheimer. (Oxford: Oxford > University Press, 1993). > > - S T R A T E G I E S A G A I N S T A R C H I T E C T U R E - > 1940 N.E. 31st Court > Lighthouse Point, Florida > _________________________________ > K. Snider > > "Architecture only survives where it negates the form that society expects > of it. Where it negates itself by transgressing the limits history has set > for it." > > - Bernard Tschumi, > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Feb 11 16:07:28 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA18438 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:07:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA23101; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:04:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA08191 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:00:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA08184 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:00:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from sardonyx.tufts.edu (root@sardonyx.tufts.edu [130.64.5.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAB27764 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (root@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by sardonyx.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA17536 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 16:00:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jharbeck@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA00909 for ; Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:44:49 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 11 Feb 1997 15:44:45 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: RE: POST-MODERNIST AESTHETICS Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O X-Status: I agree that style and aesthetics are different things. Notwithstanding that, I think we must agree that there is no shortage of architecture and other cultural produce which is labeled postmodern--that is to say, the actual artifacts and edifices are considered to have been executed in a postmodern style. Perhaps this IS looking at it entirely the wrong way around; this possibility was implied in my previous question--i.e., that postmodern is not really a style but only a way of perceving styles. The point is simply that we have these artifacts and edifices which are considered at least by some to be in a postmoderrn "style." How do we deal with that? If I read the current responses in this thread correctly, the trend is towards the conclusion that such designation is erroneous. And yet at the same time we can see how a dramatic revision in our perception of architectural etc. aesthetics could lead to a revision in our style of production (perhaps especially so if that revision is not completed to the degree suggested by Keith Snider). What then do we call these products? Or is the point simply that our calling them anything at all is evidence that we haven't gotten the point yet? James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Feb 12 09:10:46 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA10229 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:10:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA27392; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:10:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id JAA11988 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:08:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id JAA11965 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:08:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from goggins.bath.ac.uk (pp@goggins.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.13]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA20132 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:08:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from bath.ac.uk (actually host ss1.bath.ac.uk) by goggins.bath.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Wed, 12 Feb 1997 14:00:27 +0000 Received: from abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk by ss1.bath.ac.uk id aa17746; 12 Feb 97 14:00 GMT Received: by abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <01BC18EC.47E0E200@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk>; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:54:35 -0000 Message-ID: <01BC18EC.47E0E200@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk> From: Andrew Ballantyne To: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: Aesthetics: Call for news about architectural history Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 13:54:33 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Andrew Ballantyne Status: O X-Status: I am putting together the next Newsletter for the Society of = Architectural Historians of Great Britain, and can include notices of = conferences, lectures or visits which would be of interest to the = membership (i.e. things concerned with Architectural History, broadly = defined). The newsletter is typset and would be distributed in mid-June 1997, so = only events after that date are of interest, but if it you want to = publicize something via this channel then please send me details of it = by 20th February. Dr Andrew Ballantyne Department of Architecture and Civil Engineering University of Bath Bath BA2 7AY telephone 01225 323016 facsimile 01225 826691 e-mail a.n.ballantyne@bath.ac.uk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Feb 12 21:56:22 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA30726 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA22973; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA08717 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:54:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA08700 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:54:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from melvax.sonoma.edu (melvax.sonoma.edu [130.157.12.42]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA25341 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:54:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from qmlink.sonoma.edu by SONOMA.EDU (PMDF V5.0-7 #8366) id <01IFC7MPNEHC9KM04A@SONOMA.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:54:20 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 18:50:59 -0800 From: Joel Rudinow Subject: Aesthetics: Asilomar '97 To: aesthetics Message-id: X-Mailer: Mail*Link SMTP-QM 3.0.2 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Joel Rudinow Status: O X-Status: Subject: Time: 2:40 PM OFFICE MEMO Asilomar '97 Date: 2/12/97 _____________________________ ANNOUNCEMENT TENTATIVE PROGRAM ASA PACIFIC DIVISION CONFERENCE April 2-4, 1997 Asilomar Conference Center Pacific Grove, CA ________________________ THIS INFORMATION ALSO AVAILABE VIA THE ASA WEBSITE AT: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/events/pacific.html ________________________ Wednesday, April 2 3:00-3:30 Registration and Check-in 3:30-5:00 Aesthetics and the Politics of Culture Title: "Voice Appropriation: A Defense" Speaker: James Young, University of Victoria Comments: Gillian Parker, Sonoma State University Title: "Negative Beauty: On the Religious Rhetoric of Literary Criticism" Speaker: Roger Seamon, University of British Columbia Comments: John Heintz, University of Calgary Title: Aesthetics and Secularization: How Does Art Theory Get Politicized?" Speaker: Casey Haskins, SUNY, Comments: John Heintz, University of Calgary 6:00-7:30 Dinner 7:30-9:00 "Aesthetics and the Boundaries of Culture" Title: "Open-Textured Aesthetic Boundaries: Matters of Art, Race and Culture" Speaker: Rudolph Vanterpool, CSUniversity: Dominguez Hills Comments: Cynthia Rostankowski, San Jose State University Title: "Landscape-Lens-scape: Disconnection and Connection in Euro-American and Aboriginal Visual Art" Speaker: Carol Sheehan, University of Calgary Comments: Ed Castillo, Native American Studies, Sonoma State University 9:00-Midnight: Reception Thursday, April 3 9:00-10:30 "Aesthetics/Ethics" Title: "Just Joking: the Ethics and Aesthetics of Humor" Speaker: Berys Gaut, University of St. Andrews Comments: Robert Solomon, University of Texas Title: "Akrasia and Aesthetic Judgment" Speaker: Patricia Herzog, Brandeis Comments: Denis Dutton, University of Canterbury 10:30-10:40 Refreshments 10:40-12:10 "Music/Noise" Session Chair: Philip Alperson, University of Louisville Title: "Author Meets Critics: Ted Gracyk's Rhythm and Noise: An Aesthetics of Rock" Speakers: Kathleen M. Higgins, University of Texas Renee Lorraine, University of Tennessee Theodor Gracyk, Moorehead State University Title: "Signs of a Struggle: Aesthetic Aspects of Musical Noise" Speaker: Jennifer Judkins, UCLA Comments: Alex Neill, University of St. Andrews 12:10-1:15 Lunch 1:15-1:45 Business Meeting Thursday, April 3 1:45-5:45 "Poetry, Eros, American Philosophy and the End of 'Art'" Title: "Power, Form and Secrecy: Approaching Emerson's 'The Poet'" Speaker: Tim Gould, Metropolitan State College of Denver Comments: Tony Graybosch, CSU, Chico Title: "Poets as the Auxiliaries of Philosophers?: New Facets of Plato's Critical Engagement with theLiterary Tradition" Speaker: Susan Levin, Smith College Comments: Peter Hadreas, San Jose State University 3:30-3:45 Refreshments Title: "The Aesthetic of the Erotic" Speaker: Jane Duran, University of California: Santa Barbara Comments: Ellen Handler Spitz, Stanford University Title: "The Ends of Art and the End of 'Art'" Speaker: Stanley Bates, Middlebury College Comments: Stephan Burton, University of Chicago Title: "William James: A Philosophy of Art?" Speaker: Christine P. Watling, University of Alberta Comments: Ron Moore, University of Washington 6:00 Dinner Friday, April 4 9:00-10:30 "The Aesthetics of Nature" Title: "What the Hills Are Alive With: Appreciating the Sounds of Nature" Speaker: John Fisher, University of Colorado Comments: Don Crawford, University of California: Santa Barbara Title: Positive Aesthetics and Conservation Priorities Speaker: Stan Godlovitch, Lincoln University Comments: Stephanie Ross, University of Missouri at St. Louis 10:30-10:45 Refreshments 10:45-11:30 Title: "A Phenomenology of the Television Experience" Speaker: Allen Casebier, University of Miami, Comments: Roger Bell, Sonoma State University _______________________ FOR FURTHER INFORMATION, REGISTRATION MATERIALS, ETC. CONTACT: Joel Rudinow Philosophy Department Sonoma State University Rohnert Park, CA 94928 (707)664-2277 email: rudinow@sonoma.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Feb 12 21:40:29 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA30460 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:40:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA14250; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA07996 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:34:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA07989 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:34:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from marlboro.edu (akbar.marlboro.edu [204.4.192.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id VAA18463 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by marlboro.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA15142; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:34:14 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 21:34:13 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel JJ Lefebvre X-Sender: danle@akbar To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Symmetry Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Daniel JJ Lefebvre Status: O X-Status: Please pardon the triviality of this question, but does anyone know of any good book on the aesthetic of symmetry and/or an anthology of aesthetics organized by principle and not author? I would greatly appreciate any help. Thanks. -=dan=- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Feb 12 22:08:01 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA30340 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:08:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA05217; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:07:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA09160 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:06:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA09153 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:06:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from marlboro.edu (akbar.marlboro.edu [204.4.192.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id WAA17015 for ; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:06:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by marlboro.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA16071; Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:06:25 -0500 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 22:06:25 -0500 (EST) From: Daniel JJ Lefebvre X-Sender: danle@akbar To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Symmetry (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Daniel JJ Lefebvre Status: O X-Status: Please pardon the triviality of this question, but does anyone know of any good book on the aesthetic of symmetry and/or an anthology of aesthetics organized by principle and not author? I would greatly appreciate any help. Thanks. -=dan=- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Feb 13 08:46:33 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA10582 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA30106; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:44:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id IAA01861 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:42:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id IAA01843 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:42:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA26392 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:42:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (x1s5p14.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.248.73]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id IAA22292 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:42:08 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970213083520.00698020@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 08:36:55 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: Wilderness Conference, India (fwd) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O X-Status: this might interest list members who do environmental aesthetics... dom lopes >> SYMPOSIUM SESSION FOR THE >> 6th WORLD WILDERNESS CONGRESS >> Bangalore, India, Oct. 11-17, 1997 >> >> The Idea of the Wild in the Developing World >> >> The Fifth World Wilderness Congress in Norway in 1993 included a >> provocative panel on the philosophy behind the world 'wild' and its various >> inclusive and exclusive meanings. The results of that week-long session >> were published in the volume Wild Ideas, ed. David Rothenberg, (University >> of Minnesota Press, 1995). >> >> For the Sixth World Congress in Bangalore, India, we intend to expand the >> conversation to examine the meaning of the wild in the developing world. >> >> The notion of wilderness as a conservation goal has often been considered a >> classic result of imperialist practices, whereby a colonial power comes up >> with a goal for land use and inflicts it on the local population. The >> construction of wilderness areas in the developing world could involve as >> much relocation and human resettlement as a large dam project! The third >> world offers far more examples of human cultures integrated with the >> natural world than in the North, so the approach that separates humanity >> from nature, wilderness vs. civilization, may be less appropriate. >> >> But what does the word 'wild' mean in the world's many cultures? What >> ideas of nature ought to be preserved? How can local practices and >> policies be involved or put to use in global problems? >> >> These are some of the ideas we wish to address, from a philosophical >> perspective, but accessible to the general public. >> >> Selected papers will be published, in a form so as to reach the largest >> plausible reading public. >> >> Please send abstracts or proposed papers to either of the organizers by >> April 1st, completed papers by August 1st. >> >> >> David Rothenberg terranova@hudson.highlands.com >> Ramachandra Guha ram@ces.iisc.ernet.in __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Feb 13 10:36:36 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12716 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:36:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA08522; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:34:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA02985 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA02974 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:32:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu [199.17.81.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id KAA32741 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:32:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/09Oct95-1257PM) id AA18584; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:32:06 -0600 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:32:05 -0600 (CST) From: Theodore Gracyk To: Daniel JJ Lefebvre Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Symmetry In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Theodore Gracyk Status: O X-Status: On symmery, try R. Arnheim's _Art and Visual Perception_ Could you clarify what you mean by "organized by principle" -- do you mean with topical organization? On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Daniel JJ Lefebvre wrote: > Please pardon the triviality of this question, but does anyone know of any > good book on the aesthetic of symmetry and/or an anthology of aesthetics > organized by principle and not author? I would greatly appreciate any > help. Thanks. > > > -=dan=- > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Feb 13 10:43:45 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA12490 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA02366; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:41:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA03517 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:41:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA03508 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:41:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu [199.17.81.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id KAA12872 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 10:41:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/09Oct95-1257PM) id AA09310; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:41:41 -0600 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 09:41:40 -0600 (CST) From: Theodore Gracyk To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: congratulations (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Theodore Gracyk Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 12 Feb 1997 09:48:18 -0600 (CST) From: Theodore Gracyk To: susan feagin Subject: congratulations I have been reading Susan Feagin's new book with Cornell U. Press. I am finding it both enjoyable and enlightening, particularly its fine presentation of the difference between teleological and functional models of appreciation. I wonder if others would like to share their views on the following: Feagin implies that a good deal of literature is (1) not art at all and (2) art, but not very good art. She seems to say this on the grounds that the formulaic nature of some works and genres is incompatible with what art is. This caught my eye for several reasons, not least among them that until that point near the end of the book, it seemed that her account of the appreciative activity of reading literature was quite indifferent to the question of appreciating it AS ART. To what degree does a novel's status as art or non-art matter in reading the text? How does a warranted response to a novel demand reference to the concept of art; at best, it demands reference to the concept of novel. Given that some literature is not art, the work's status as art or non-art must be a distinct issue in evaluating the work. Regards, Ted Gracyk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Feb 13 12:08:37 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA15268 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:08:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA21663; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA08692 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:00:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA08681 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:00:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA30820 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (x3s3p5.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.248.84]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id MAA16764 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 12:00:39 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970213093609.0068b9c8@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 11:55:27 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: cfp International Congress of Aesthetics Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O X-Status: This document is available at= . Aesthetics as Philosophy XIVth International Congress of Aesthetics September 1-5, 1998, Ljublijana, Slovenia In recent years we have seen an increasing interest in aesthetics, bearing testimony to the fact that aesthetics is a vigorous, challenging and influential theoretic activity, of relevance to the arts, culture and even government administration. In the past aesthetics, on the basis of disciplinary divisions within the humanities, has existed as a separate field of knowledge.=20 Philosophical aesthetics has frequently been carried out as an abstract and totalizing discourse unable to do justice to the complexity and variety of art. It is our belief that in recent years different realms of knowledge existing under the name of =BBaesthetics=AB have changed in various ways. We would therefore wish to explore these differences and perhaps offer a glimpse of what awaits us, as aestheticians, in the future. Philosophy too, has experience dramatic changes, among the greatest of them perhaps being the emergent awareness that an increasingly international and simultaneously pluralist philosophy is not only possible, but is already taking place. The same is true of aesthetics. The time may have come, therefore, for aesthetics to explore and reconsider its links with philosophy. We hence propose as the theme of the XIVth International Congress of Aesthetics "Aesthetics as Philosophy." The Congress will comprise plenary sessions, symposia and special sections. In the plenary sessions invited speakers will present their views on issues of mutual importance for contemporary aesthetics and philosophy. Symposia with invited speakers will explore the key issues of contemporary aesthetics and art: Philosophy with Art, Aesthetics of Virtuality, and the Aestheticization of Everyday Life Ten special sections will consist of refereed contributed papers. These shall run simultaneously=20 throughout the congress. Papers can be presented in one of the following sections:=20 Aesthetics and Philosophy Aesthetics and History Aesthetic Experience Aesthetics, Critical Theory, Post-Structuralism Feminist Theory and Aesthetics Aesthetics and Ethics Applied Aesthetics Aesthetics and Philosophy of the Body and of the Sensuous Art, Culture and Aesthetics in the East, the West, the First, the Second and the Third World Aesthetics and Histories and Theories of Art, Literature, Music, Architecture, Design, Film, Dance XIVth International Congress of Aesthetics Secretariat ZRC SAZU, Gosposka 13 1000 Ljublijana Slovenia fax 386.61.1255.253 email __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Feb 13 15:09:58 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA11542 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA03311; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA05026 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:06:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA04992 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:06:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from belle.sva.edu (sva.edu [199.35.154.203]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id PAA10957 for ; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (tim@localhost) by belle.sva.edu (950413.SGI.8.6.12/950213.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id PAA14280; Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:08:18 -0500 Date: Thu, 13 Feb 1997 15:08:18 -0500 (EST) From: Tim Binkley To: Daniel JJ Lefebvre cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Symmetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Tim Binkley Status: O X-Status: Hi Daniel - Not exactly on the topic, but you may want to check out my book and software SYMMETRY STUDIO, which are out of print at the moment, but can be downloaded free from my website: www.artware.com - Tim Binkley On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Daniel JJ Lefebvre wrote: > Please pardon the triviality of this question, but does anyone know of any > good book on the aesthetic of symmetry and/or an anthology of aesthetics > organized by principle and not author? I would greatly appreciate any > help. Thanks. > > > -=dan=- > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Feb 14 10:58:16 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA08624 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:58:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA19052; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:55:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA24264 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA24223 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:47:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA16203; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (x1s5p4.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.248.63]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id KAA08169; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:47:46 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970214104213.0068a160@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 10:42:34 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu, John Kennedy From: Achille Varzi (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: call for participation Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Achille Varzi (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: A Lectures Series in Cognitive Science ***************************************** M E T A P H O R A N D A N A L O G Y ***************************************** Istituto Trentino di Cultura (ITC) Istituto per la Ricerca Scientifica e Tecnologica (IRST) Povo, Trento (Italy) 18-21 June 1997 ------------------------------- including a workshop on June 18 ------------------------------- LECTURERS: Gilles Fauconnier (University of California, San Diego) Douglas Hofstadter (Indiana University, Bloomington) Andrew Ortony (Northwestern University, Evanston) Mark Turner (University of Maryland, College Park) COORDINATING COMMITTEE: Douglas Hofstadter (Indiana University, Bloomington) Oliviero Stock (IRST, Povo, Trento) Achille Varzi (Columbia University, New York) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- CONTENTS ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- The lectures will encompass recent ideas about the nature of analogy- making as a general cognitive process rather than an exceptional mechanism brought to bear only in unusual circumstances. The ideas of conceptual and situational blending -- a theme of recent years -- will be one important focus, as will the role of analogy and metaphor in the creative process. The computational perspective will also be at the center of the presentations. Depending on the interests of the group of participants, other topics may also be brought into the discussion. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- PROGRAM AND ORGANIZATION ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- An introductory session on Wednesday morning, June 18, will be followed by an informal workshop open to all participants. The purpose of the workshop will be to give participants the opportunity to introduce themselves and present their work to the others. In the following three days (19-21), there will be two one-hour lectures in the morning and two in the afternoon (one by each lecturer). Each lecture will be followed by ample time for discussion. A panel discussion may be deemed appropriate, and some impromptu presentations may be organized. The atmosphere should be small and highly informal, encouraging much interpersonal exchange. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- GENERAL INFORMATION ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Participation will be limited to 30 people. There is no registration fee. - People wishing to participate should submit a short curriculum vitae and a statement of interest to one of the the addresses below. Please include e-mail address and/or fax number, if available. Applications should be received by April 15, 1997. Notification of acceptance will be provided by April 24. - The meeting will take place in the conference room of IRST, Istituto per la Ricerca Scientifica e Tecnologica, I-38050 Povo, Trento, Italy http://www.itc.irst.it - Povo is located near Trento, in the southeastern Alpine region, and is easily reachable by car or bus (approximately ten minutes from the main train station in Trento). Trento is located between Verona (100 km) and Innsbruck (160 km) and can be reached by car via autostrada A22 or by train. The closest airports are Verona (direct flights from/to London, Rome, Paris), Bologna, Innsbruck, and Munich, all of which are connected directly with Trento by train. There are also good train connections to Milano (250km) via Verona. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- APPLICATIONS AND INQUIRIES ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Applications and inquiries should be directed to any of the organizers: Douglas Hofstadter Center for Research in Concepts and Cognition Indiana University 510 North Fess Street Bloomington, IN 47408-3822, U.S.A. Fax: (+812) 855-6966 e-mail: dughof@cogsci.indiana.edu Oliviero Stock Istituto per la Ricerca Scientifica e Tecnologica (IRST), I-38050 Povo (TN), Italy Fax: (+39) (461) 314591 e-mail: stock@irst.itc.it Achille Varzi Department of Philosophy Columbia University 1150 Amsterdam Avenue Philosophy Hall 708, Mail Code 4971 New York, NY 10027, U.S.A. Fax: (+212) 932-3721 e-mail: varzi@columbia.edu ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ACCOMMODATION ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Participants must make their own hotel reservations as such matters cannot be coordinated by the host institute. A list of hotels is attached below. For tourist information please contact APT (Azienda Promozione Turismo), via Alfieri 4, 38100 Trento, tel. +309 461 983880. http://patio.cs.unitn.it/apt/ Prices in Italian lire; entries marked + include breakfast. All phone/fax numbers need area code 0461 from inside Italy; +39 461 from abroad. DOWNTOWN TRENTO Single Double **** ACCADEMIA 140.000 200.000 Vicolo Colico, 4/6 tel. 233600 fax 230174 *** BUONCONSIGLIO 138.000 190.000 Via Romagnosi, 14/16 tel. 980089 fax 980038 ** AMERICA 90.000 120.000 Via Torre Verde, 50 tel. 983010 fax 230603 ** AQUILA D'ORO 98.000 (+) 140.000 (+) Via Belenzani, 76 tel./fax 986282 *** EVEREST 80.000 110.000 Corso Alpini, 16 tel. 825300 fax 824527 *** MONACO 90.000 (+) 130.000 (+) Via Torre d'Augusto, 25 tel./fax 983060 ** VENEZIA 50.000 75.000 Via Belenzani, 70 tel. 234559 fax 234114 OUTSIDE TRENTO * GARNI' ESTER 47.000 (+) 70.000 (+) Loc. Sale' di Povo tel./fax 810380 Only hotel in Povo, 5 min. walk from IRST; very limited availability. *** VILLA MADRUZZO 86.000 134.000 Loc. Cognola di Trento tel. 986220 On the hill across from IRST, 5 minutes by car, 15 minutes on foot; difficult bus connection. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Feb 14 11:09:57 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA08966 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:09:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA20081; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:08:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA01507 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:07:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA01487 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA11732 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (x1s5p4.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.248.63]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id LAA23293 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:06:54 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970214110113.0069fb04@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 11:01:40 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: new on Aesthetics On-Line Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O X-Status: New on Aesthetics On-Line *calls for papers and conference announcements Workshop on Theatre and Consciousness 1998 International Congress of Aesthetics Literature/Film Association Schedule for the ASA Meeting in Asilomar *many new links on "Aesthetics Web Sites" and "Aesthetics Teaching Materials" Society for the Philosophical Study of the Contemporary Visual Arts site Centre for Research in Philosophy and Literature Cognitive Science and the Arts: An On-Line Bibliography Susan Koppelman's course on Disability and the Arts ... and more *"Aesthetics Ideas:" "The Philosopher in the Dance Department" by Julie van Camp And I'm always looking for new links and submissions or articles, as well as calls for papers and conference announcements. Send them in! __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Feb 14 13:18:00 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA12108 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:18:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA27010; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id NAA20450 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:12:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id NAA20420 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:12:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA22123 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (x1s4p5.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.248.44]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id NAA05740 for ; Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:12:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970214115910.00688cbc@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 14 Feb 1997 13:07:22 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: call for reviewers Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O X-Status: Hello all, I'm looking for two volunteers to review two books for the ASA Newsletter. They are: David Goldblatt and Lee Brown, Aesthetics: A Reader in Philosophy and the Arts (Prentice Hall, 1996) David Cooper, Companion to Aesthetics (Blackwell 1994). The reviews should be 1500 words in length and will be due near the end of the year. _________________________________________________________ dom lopes Indiana University, Kokomo IN 46904-9003 office (765) 455-9372; fax (765) 455-9528; home (317) 255-6623 PGP Key: send mail to pgp-key-request __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Feb 17 11:53:56 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA07125 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA02410; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:52:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA08903 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:44:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA08887 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from acnet.pratt.edu (acnet.pratt.edu [204.97.89.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA01567 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from 207.127.153.116 by acnet.pratt.edu (8.7.5/SMI-SVR4) id LAA00658; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:44:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <33088BEB.7189@acnet.pratt.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 11:48:55 -0500 From: Aric Mayer X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Santayana and Photography Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Aric Mayer Status: O X-Status: I am looking for a copy of George Santayana's "The Photograph and the Mental Image" (written between 1900 and 1907). If anyone can give me the title of a book that it is in or where I can find it, I would be most grateful. Aric Mayer amayer@pratt.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Feb 17 12:58:55 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA08790 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:58:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA15909; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:56:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA05266 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:49:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA05226 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:49:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA10129 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:49:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.253]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id MAA01152 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 12:49:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970217130201.006a2e58@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 13:02:32 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: Lydia Goehr's Bloch Lectures in Berkeley Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O X-Status: Lydia Goehr - The Ernest Bloch Lectures 1997 UC Berkeley - Music Department: March 10th: 8pm. "Music and Musicians in Exle: The Romantic Legacy of a Double Life" The following are at 4.30 p.m. [Fridays] April 4: Secrecy and Silence in the Music, Philosophy, and Politics of German Romanticism. April 11: Wagner's Exemplary Legacy April 25: Wagner's Quest for the Autonomous Musical Voice May 2: Conflicting Ideals of Performance Perfection in an Imperfect Practice. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Feb 17 17:04:48 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA16716 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:04:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA08536; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:02:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA20246 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:00:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA20239 for ; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:00:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from minnie.risd.edu (minnie.risd.edu [192.190.22.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id RAA16786; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:00:26 -0500 (EST) Received: by minnie.risd.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/22Feb96-1025AM) id AA08646; Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:04:33 -0500 Date: Mon, 17 Feb 1997 17:04:33 -0500 (EST) From: Donald Keefer To: dom lopes Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Eastern Meeting of ASA--program In-Reply-To: <199601121448.JAA04752@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Donald Keefer Status: O X-Status: EASTERN DIVISION MEETING OF THE ASA The following is an ascii (text-only) version of the Eastern Division Meetings coming up. In order to save money on mailing and trees, we have not mailed out information as widely as might have been in the past. If you live much beyond the radius of the northeastern states, our mailing may not have included you. Please accept our apologies. We hope that this internet distribution will serve as an invitation and an enticement to coming to what looks to be a very fine and provocative few days. Registration is $35 (50% discount for students) and the Friday night Banquet is $25 extra. Accomodations will be at the Auburn Ramada Inn: RAMADA INN 624 Southbridge St TEL (508) 832-3221 Auburn, MA 01501 FAX (508) 832-8366 Please make your Hotel Accomodations directly to the Ramada Inn, indicating that you are part of the American Society for Aesthetics Block (Ramada Inn is approximately eight minutes from Holy Cross). Reservations should be made by March 3, 1997. Room Rates for March 20-22 are: Single $58.90 Double $63.90 Please contact me, Don Keefer (dkeefer@risd.edu or 401 454-6263) directly, and I will send you immediately the necessary information over e-mail and snail-mail. PROGRAM American Society for Aesthetics Annual Eastern Division Meeting March 20-22, 1997 College of the Holy Cross Worcester, Massachusetts Thursday, March 20 Registration: 6:00-8:00 p.m. Hogan Campus Center, Hogan 433 College of the Holy Cross Friday, March 21 Registration: 8:15-8:45 am Hogan 433 coffee and donuts Ongoing Book Exhibition: 10:00-4:30 Hogan 433 8:45-9:00 Hogan 433 Welcome from Holy Cross College Dr. Mark Freeman, Assoc. Dean, Holy Cross Session I Concurrent Sessions 9:00-9:50 IA Hogan 403 "The Bribe of Beauty: Freud on Sexuality and Aesthetics" Sally Markowitz (Philosophy, Willamette C) Comments: Chris Perricone (Philosophy, Iona C) Chair: tba IB Hogan 424 "Aesthetic Critique" Robert Innis (Philosophy,UMass, Lowell) Read by Hermman Cloeren (Chair, Philosophy, Holy Cross C) Comments: Susan Feagin (Philosophy, U of Missouri, KC) Chair: Gary Hagberg (Philosophy, Bard C) Session II Concurrent Sessions 10:00-11:20 IIA Hogan 424 CONTINENTAL AESTHETICS "Derrida's Aesthetics of the Gift" John Carvalho (Villanova, Philosophy) "Adorno's Immanent Art Critique" Michael Kelly (Columbia U, Philosophy) Comments: David Fisher (Philosophy, North Central C) Chair: tba IIB Hogan 403 JAPANESE AESTHETICS "Mono no Aware and Taste: The Aesthetics of Motoori Norinaga in Light of his European Contemporaries" Mark F. Meli (Philosophy,SUNY, Buffalo) "The Art of Wrapping: Unwrapping" Yuriko Saito (Philosophy, RI School of Design) "On Japan's Second Skin: Enveloping" Barbara Sandrisser Chair: Sarah Worth (Philosophy, SUNY Buffalo) Session III Concurrent Sessions 11:30-12:30 IIIA Hogan 424 "Thinking of the future archaically: in the shape of a poplos." Sam Mallin (Philosophy, York U.) Chair: John Brown (Philosophy, U of Maryland, College Park) IIIB Hogan 403 "The Problem of Derivative Black Aesthetic Production" Milton Curry (Architecture, Cornell U) Comments: Bert Ashe (English, Holy Cross) Chair: Monique Roelofs (Philosophy, Bryant C) Lunch Hogan 438 (Buffet) lunch included with registration Session IV Concurrent Sessions 2:00-2:50 IVA Hogan 403 "The Aesthetics of the Architectual Work" Michael Mitias (Philosophy, Millsaps C.) Comments: Sarah Fowler (Philosophy, North Central C.) Chair: Carol Gould (Philosophy, Florida Atlantic U.) IVB Hogan 424 "Alain Locke, Essentialism, and the Notion of a Black Aesthetic" Jane Duran and Earl Stewart (Black Studies, UC, Santa Barbara) Comments: Lewis Gordon (Black Studies, Brown) Chair: Eugene McCarthy (Black Studies, Holy Cross) Session V Concurrent Sessions 3:00-3:50 VA Hogan 403 "Digital Imagery and the Resources of Art" Barbara Savedoff (Philosophy, Baruch C, Philosophy) Comments: Cheryl Foster (Philosophy, University of RI) Chair: tba VB Hogan 424 "Wagner, Politics, Art, Anti-Semitism" Howard Metzger (Music, U of North Texas) Comments: tba Chair: Patricia Herzog (Philosophy, Brandeis) Session VI Plenary Session 4:00-5:30 Diamond Library--Browsing Room Introduction James Hogan (Holy Cross, Librarian) "The Landscape of Memory: Towards a Social Aesthetics of Holocaust Memorials" James E. Young (English & Judaic Studies, UMass, Amherst) Lecture co-sponsored by: College of the Holy Cross: Dinand Library English Department Center for Interdisciplinary and Special Studies Philosophy Department First Year Program 5:30-6:30 Reception Browsing Room Host: Rev. Gerard Reedy, S.J., President, College of the Holy Cross wine-cheese-crudites 7:00 pm Banquet Hogan 433 Saturday, March 22 Registration: 8:30-9:00 am Hogan 433 coffee and donuts Ongoing Book Exhibition: 10:00-1:00 Hogan 433 Session VII Forum on Teaching Aesthetics 9:00-9:50 Hogan 403 "Teaching Aesthetics: an undergraduate perspective" Gary Brouhard (U of Michigan, Ann Arbor) "Soft Boundaries: Towards Interdisciplinary, Integrative Education in Aesthetics and the Arts" Claire Detels (Music, U of Arkansas) Chair: Predrag Cicovacki (Philosophy, Holy Cross) Session VIII Concurrent Sessions 10:00-10:50 VIIIA Hogan 424 "The Naturalist and the Gardener: Two Ways of Imitating in Art" Ira Newman (Philosophy, Mansfield U.) Comments: Jennifer McErlean (Philosophy, Siena C.) Chair: Marcia Allentuck (CUNY, Art History and English) VIIIB Hogan 424 "Living in Glass Houses: Domesticity, Interior Decoration, and Environmental Aesthetics" Kevin Melchionne Comments: Christopher Dustin (Philosophy, Holy Cross) Chair: Elizabeth Dobie (Philosophy, Alfred C.) IX Keynote Address 11:00-12:00 "Epistemological Pollution" Hilde Hein (Philosophy, Holy Cross) Lunch Break (on your own) Worcester Museum Auditorium 1:45 Welcome James A. Welu, Director Session XI Forum on Aesthetics of Visual Arts 2:00-3:20 "The Explanation of Analytic Cubism" William Croddy (Philosophy, West Chester SU) "Cezanne's Postmodern Color" David Brubaker Comments: Al Anderson (Art History, Babson C) Chair: Curtis Carter (Philosophy, Marquette U, Director, Haggerty Museum of Art) 3:30-4:00 Short Business Meeting Program Committee Don Keefer (RISD)/David Fisher (North Central) Program Coordinators John Brown (UMaryland) Elizabeth Dobie (Alfred) Carol Gould (Florida Atlantic) Local Arrangements Hilde Hein (Holy Cross) Acknowledgements Holy Cross Philosophy Department Steven Ainley, Dean of Holy Cross Mary Cerasuolo, Secretary, Philosophy Worcester Art Museum 6 _________________________________________________________ Don Keefer Dept. of History, Philosophy dkeefer@risd.edu and Social Sciences (o) 401 454-6263 Rhode Island School of Design (h) 401 351-7436 2 College St., Providence, RI 02903 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Feb 18 09:40:54 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA01240 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:40:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA02725; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id JAA10195 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id JAA10188 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA29047 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (x3s3p13.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.248.92]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id JAA07342 for ; Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:35:16 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970218092956.0068e028@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Tue, 18 Feb 1997 09:30:01 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: alight@selway.umt.edu (Andrew Light) (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: cfp Eastern SPG 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: alight@selway.umt.edu (Andrew Light) (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: CALL FOR PAPERS AND PROPOSALS FOR SESSIONS Society for Philosophy and Geography sessions at the 1997 Eastern Division, American Philosophical Association Meeting December 27-30, Marriott Hotel, Philadelphia, PA. Papers invited for two planned sessions: Session I: THE AESTHETICS OF EVERYDAY LIFE Session II: OPEN SESSION ON PHILOSOPHY AND GEOGRAPHY Deadline for submission (abstract or final paper): May 1, 1997. Accepted papers will be given special consideration for inclusion in volume four of _Philosophy and Geography_. Detailed Abstracts will be considered for inclusion in the session only. Final papers will be considered for the volume. ***Proposals for other sessions to be sponsored by the SPG at this meeting are also welcome, e.g. an author meets critics session on a recent work in an area of interest to the Society.*** Send all replies to: Andrew Light phone: 406/243-5314 Department of Philosophy fax: 406/243-5313 University of Montana alight@selway.umt.edu Missoula, MT 59812-1038 --- Andrew Light phone: 406/243-5314 Assistant Professor fax: 406/243-5313 Department of Philosophy alight@selway.umt.edu University of Montana Missoula, MT 59812-1038 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Feb 19 14:47:35 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA26718 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:47:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA02630; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:45:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA24565 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:34:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA24526 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:34:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA17621 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:34:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.253]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id OAA10297 for ; Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:34:20 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970219143542.006b1fa8@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 19 Feb 1997 14:48:11 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: film-philosophy-request@mailbase.ac.uk (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: New Film-Philosophy Web Site Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: film-philosophy-request@mailbase.ac.uk (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: Film-Philosophy: Electronic Salon . . . is pleased to announce its new web site: http://www.mailbase.ac.uk/lists/film-philosophy/files/contents.html containing six sections: Email Salon, with an introduction to the discussion list, and info about joining. Events & Things, detailing conferences and online organisations. Film Philosophers, linking to info on writers and filmmakers. Journals, gathering together interesting periodicals, both online and old fashioned. Bibliographies, concerning Deleuze, phenomenology and other areas. Online Writings, containing files and links to some interesting papers. Go take a butchers, and then post your comments and suggestions to film-philosophy-request@mailbase.ac.uk. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Feb 20 23:29:49 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA19710 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA10297; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:27:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id XAA05299 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:19:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id XAA05292 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.20]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA22553 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ts15-2.homenet.ohio-state.edu (ts15-2.homenet.ohio-state.edu [140.254.113.57]) by postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA24684 for ; Thu, 20 Feb 1997 23:18:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702210418.XAA24684@postbox.acs.ohio-state.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Feb 97 23:25:46 -0800 From: Melissa Ann McComas Organization: The Ohio State University X-Mailer: Mozilla 1.22 (Windows; I; 16bit) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: need info Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Melissa Ann McComas Status: O X-Status: Could anyone send any information on English Restoration Theatre? I am a student trying to find information on elitism in drama during the period of 1660-1730. Thanks, Melissa McComas __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Feb 22 12:06:28 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01607 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:06:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA10447; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:05:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA06892 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:59:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA06885 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.2.209]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id LAA21532 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:59:09 -0500 (EST) From: lharri03@sprynet.com Received: from 199.174.241.183 (hd58-183.compuserve.com [199.174.241.183]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id IAA04960 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 08:58:59 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 08:58:59 -0800 Message-Id: <199702221658.IAA04960@m9.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Aesthetics: file transfer experiment To: aesthetics@indiana.edu X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.14 X-Spry-Attachment: AESTHG~1.DOC Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lharri03@sprynet.com Status: O X-Status: Help, I've been trying to transfer a document but its been received encoded. I tried changing it to save as Ms-Dos doc to see if that's any better The document looks nicer than attaching it as text. Let me know (as soon as possible) if you are able to read it. It is a short document regarding Aesthetics for Children. Thanks. LH <---- Begin Attached File ----> begin 644 AESTHG~1.DOC MT,\1X*&Q&N$`````````````````````/@`#`/[_"0`&```````````````! M`````0``````````$````@````$```#^____``````````#_____________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M_______________________]____$@```/[____^____!0````8````'```` M"`````D````*````"P````P````-````#@````\````0````$0```/[____^ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M_____________________________________________U(`;P!O`'0`(`!% M`&X`=`!R`'D````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````6``4`__________\#````PMO-*.(*SA&BF@"J`$H:<@`````` M```````````$"ST7(+P!`P```,``````````30!A`'0`3P!3`%0````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M``X``0'_____!````/____\``````````````````````````$!RZ3P7(+P! MX&(#/1<@O`$```````````````!-`$T````````````````````````````` M````````````````````````````````````````````````````!@`"`?__ M_____________P`````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````.`````````$T`3@`P```````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````(``(!`@````$```#_ M____````````````````````````````````````````````````!````!,: M````````_O___P(```#^________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M____________________________________________________________ M______________________________].1````0`````````$```````````` M`````````````````````````````````````````````````````````0#^ M_P,*``#_____PMO-*.(*SA&BF@"J`$H:`]T"\!``````#0`@<%``!&````)A<`````_____P`` M```""-`"````````/A0```$`=`&?&```)A<`````2Q<``%0!```````````` M```````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` M```````````````````````````````````-"LP-"@(-"DE54%5)#0I2969L M96-T:6]N2!O9B!A M97-T:&5T:6-S(&%S('=E;&P@87,@86X@:6YT2!I;G1R;V1U8W1I;VX@=&\@2!B M96-A=7-E(&]F('1H96ER(&EM<&]R=&%N8V4N#0H-"B`@("`@26X@=&AE('1E M;B!D87D@'!EFEN9R!I2!IF4@86)O=70@87)T("!A;F0@8F5A=71Y(&%N9"!M M;W)E(&EM<&]R=&%N=&QY(&]U2!S96QD;VT@8F4@=&]L9"!T:&%T M('1H96ER(')E2!O=&AE7!I8V%L;'D@=V4@=V%N="!T;R!S:&%R92!O M=7(@2X@(%1H:7,@*&9O7,@2!U;F1EFEN9RP@96YG86=I;F<@(&EN M(&1I86QO9W5E+"!A;F0@8F5C;VUI;F<@87=A6]U(&UA>2!AF4@;W5R(')E2!D M;R!P:&EL;W-O<&AE2!T:&EN:R!A8F]U="!O M=7(@&5R8VES97,@;W5R('!O=V5R('1O M(&UA:V4@=F%L=64@:G5D9VUE;G1S+B`@*$ET(&ES('!O2!I2!T;R!I;G1R;V1U8V4@=F%L=64@=&AE;W)Y('1O('!U8FQI8R!S8VAO M;VP@8VAI;&1R96XA*2`@($ET(&ES(&%L'AX>'AX>'AX>'AX>``` M``````````````````````````````````8````5X`$2``$``-4$``!`%``` M*0`J```!``!;`0``:0D``$`4```K`"P`+0`0$`]4:6UE __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Feb 22 12:49:12 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA01983 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA03300; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:47:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA07636 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:45:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA07629 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:45:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from bebop.chass.utoronto.ca (root@bebop.chass.utoronto.ca [128.100.160.4]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id MAA13685 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:45:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from chass.utoronto.ca by bebop.chass.utoronto.ca via ESMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/940406.SGI) id MAA26566; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:45:04 -0500 Received: from localhost by chass.utoronto.ca via SMTP (951211.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH1042/930416.SGI) id MAA13962; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:45:02 -0500 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 12:45:02 -0500 (EST) From: Will Buschert To: lharri03@sprynet.com Subject: Re: Aesthetics: file transfer experiment In-Reply-To: <199702221658.IAA04960@m9.sprynet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Will Buschert Status: O X-Status: Laura (I Presume), Three Points: 1) Your uuencoded file AESTHG~1.DOC contains no end line (to let uudecode know where the included file ends). This will likely cause mailers such as Pegasus and Eudora to mishandle it. I recommend that you resend it as text in the body of an email message. 2) It is, at least in my opinion, bad netiquette to send such a short uuencdoed text to a mailing list in the first place. Is formatting really so important as to force everyone using a shell mail program to perform at least three additional steps in order to read what you have written? Maybe, if the text in question contained diagrams or binary attachments, but yours is just a few lines of text. 3) I readily endorse your project, but I think that it would be a mistake to think of it as *critical* per se. It is an open question as to whether Kant's universal subjectivity of aesthetic judgment is anything more than (bourgeois) socialization by another name (see, e.g. Eagleton, _The Ideology of the Aesthetic_). When I see your students later on, as young adults, I for one will not be satisified with a "aha, I've seen this before" response. The real critical work will begin when we try to take apart the universal subjectivity of the aesthetic, unlearning their aesthetic soicalization. -- Will IUPUI Reflections On Art Course Goals for Young Scholars grades 5-7 Research: Aesthetics for Children Laura Harris c. 1997 This summer in my Aesthetics for Children class, the children will be introduced to concepts important to the study of aesthetics as well as an introduction to philosophy itself. The ten day class session will begin with an easy introduction to some of the key words. Children will take some notes but not many. Some of these vocabulary words are listed below and will be added as the research and lesson plans progress. The following terms will be introduced the first day because of their importance. In the ten day session, children will begin to distinquish what is meant by subject (observer) object (art piece) reflection (thinking, contemplating) It will be explained that reflection is a mental act, the observer is doing something. This is extremely important. Aesthetics is really about the subject/observer not the object itself. It_s about our response, our reflection on the art work. This i s what we mean when we talk about the aesthetic experience. Children can understand this because they have to learn what verbs are in English class. So I ALWAYS explain that philosophizing is a VERB. It is something we do. I tell the kids that philosophy is one subject that they can never learn by just r eading about it. It is an activity. Aesthetic inquiry is no different. Aestheticians philosophize about art and beauty and more importantly our response. This idea may be new to the children. They've always learned about art by looking at things and making things. They may seldom be told that their response is equally important. So the classroom activities will direct the children to start thin king about their response to art. The ideas, discussions and vocabulary words are based on Kant_s Critique of Judgment and Marcia Eaton's Aesthetics and the Good Life as well as many other resources regarding Aesthetics. Some Essential Elements to an Aesthetic Response (Eaton) 1. The subject/observer reflects on something in or about the art piece (a property of the artwork.) 2. The response is a positive response. We value something about the piece. 3. Typically we want to share our response with friends or we want to invite others to "see it" too. There are certainly more ideas involved in the aesthetic experience but when working with children, I try to keep the new ideas to a minimum. Three concepts are plenty for now. The third item is especially important because it touches on one of Kant's criteria for an aesthetic judgment which is his idea of universal subjectivity. This (for Kant) distinquishes the aesthetic from individual taste which is NEVER to be confused. For children, I always shoot for the actual philsophical concepts and I make sure that I am leading the children on a track that will later on "ring a bell" and register a memory like, "Oh yeah, I remember talking about that before." You see, children need to begin to build a foundation of inquiry and creative/critical thinking and they can do that because they understand some of these basic ideas. Children can begin to understand the basic building blocks or thinking tools that formulate the larger abstract concepts which is thrown at them when they get to college with NO PRIOR preparation. This can be overwhelming and devasting to an eighteen year old student. My main goal is for children to experience this idea of philsophizing, engaging in dialogue, and becoming aware of their own thoughts. Children become so excited when we take a sincere interest in their thoughts. I've seen this happen with my 3-4th grade philosophy students. They love coming to class. One counselor even told me a child couldn't wait for lunch to be over so they could come to philosophy class. (Believe me, that was a great compliment) Now you may ask, "Why bother to analyze our responses and why do philosophers pick everything to death? Can't we just enjoy the art?" I can even hear you saying this out loud! Why think about our responses at all? Because it means that we value something. It exercises our power to make value judgments. (It is possible that Aesthetical inquiry is the mental prerequisite to ethical thinking. And isn't this a safe way to introduce value theory to public school children!) It is also important because it sharpens our observation and evaluation skills. When we make judgments, we are drawing conclusions and letting our thoughts make lots of connections. to be continued...... ______________________________________________________________________________ William Buschert buschert@chass.utoronto.ca Department of Philosophy http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~buschert University of Toronto 215 Huron Street Toronto, Ontario The poet and the dreamer are distinct, Canada Diverse, sheer opposite, antipodes. M5S 1A1 The one pours out a balm upon the world The other vexes it. -- John Keats ______________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Feb 22 14:26:58 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02797 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 14:26:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA06343; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 14:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA09198 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 14:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA09191 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 14:23:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.1.209]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id OAA03977 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 14:23:46 -0500 (EST) From: lharri03@sprynet.com Received: from 199.174.233.44 (hd41-044.compuserve.com [199.174.233.44]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id LAA23520 for ; Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:23:44 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Feb 1997 11:23:44 -0800 Message-Id: <199702221923.LAA23520@m9.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Aesthetics: netiquette To: aesthetics@indiana.edu X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.14 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lharri03@sprynet.com Status: O X-Status: I appologize for the breach of netiquette. Several people requested the information and it seemed easier this way. I too feel that netiquette is extremely important in an unpolite society. With this new technology of communication I'm confident that as long as everyone helps each other, all these bugs will be worked out. I realize that everyone is very busy. Thanks for your patience. LH __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Feb 24 01:56:08 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA28216 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 01:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA20002; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 01:55:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id BAA18066 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 01:50:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id BAA18053 for ; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 01:50:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from apollo.sfsu.edu (asilvers@apollo.sfsu.edu [130.212.10.167]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA30713; Mon, 24 Feb 1997 01:50:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (asilvers@localhost) by apollo.sfsu.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA11201; Sun, 23 Feb 1997 22:50:17 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 23 Feb 1997 22:50:16 -0800 (PST) From: Anita Silvers X-Sender: asilvers@apollo To: dom lopes cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetics Section, 20th World Congress of Philosophy In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970213093609.0068b9c8@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Anita Silvers Status: O X-Status: The Twentieth World Congress of Philosophy will be held in Boston, U.S.A., August 10 - 16, 1998. The theme of the 1998 Congress is "Paideia: Philosophy Educating Humanity". Each section of the Congress will include two invited sessions arranged by the chairs of the section. The remainder of the program for each section will consist of submitted papers. As one of the two chairs for the Aesthetics and Philosophy of Arts section (my colleague has yet to be appointed), I would appreciate receiving suggestions about topics for the invited sessions. Please e-mail me your recommendations. We would like to organize invited sessions that advance the work in our field, so your views on what constitutes "cutting-edge" work in aesthetics will be very welcome. I will post the paper submission instructions and deadlines as soon as I receive them. Please consider submitting a paper. This World Congress promises to be a very interesting and well-organized one. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Feb 25 09:52:38 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA25059 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:52:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA16606 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:52:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id HAA12723 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:52:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id HAA12716 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:52:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from alberti.fa.utl.pt (alberti.fa.utl.pt [193.136.97.3]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id HAA02035 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 07:50:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (smo@localhost) by alberti.fa.utl.pt (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id MAA18157; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:49:06 +0100 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 12:49:06 +0100 (GMT+0100) From: Susana Oliveira To: Daniel JJ Lefebvre cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Symmetry (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Susana Oliveira Status: O X-Status: Maybe you could also try to see Charpentes'"La Geometrie Secrete des Peintres",Erwin Panovsky writings such as "Idea" and "Perspective as Symbolic Form" (I don't know the english title)and in authors such as Ernest Gombrich and Hubert Damish ("Le Mirroir"). I hope this information is somehow useful to you, and I'm sorry i didn't send it earlier. Bye, Susana On Wed, 12 Feb 1997, Daniel JJ Lefebvre wrote: > > Please pardon the triviality of this question, but does anyone know of any > good book on the aesthetic of symmetry and/or an anthology of aesthetics > organized by principle and not author? I would greatly appreciate any > help. Thanks. > > > -=dan=- > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Feb 25 18:37:35 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA08196 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:37:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA30070 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 18:37:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA07836 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:33:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA07825 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:33:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mule1.mindspring.com (mule1.mindspring.com [204.180.128.167]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA31635 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:33:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from LOCALNAME (ip237.belair.md.pub-ip.psi.net [38.14.57.237]) by mule1.mindspring.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA54050 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:33:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 16:33:08 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970226043010.2b4f26a2@pop.pipeline.com> X-Sender: mindstorm@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: crispin sartwell Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Symmetry (fwd) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: crispin sartwell Status: O X-Status: also if i recall correctly there's a bunch of interesting stuff on symmetry in heinrich wolfflin's *principles of art history* and others of his writings. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Feb 25 22:16:08 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA13363 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 22:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA22460 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 22:16:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA15096 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:29:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA15089 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from wamba.cpd.uva.es (wamba.cpd.uva.es [157.88.18.31]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id UAA23962 for ; Tue, 25 Feb 1997 20:29:44 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199702260129.UAA23962@cayman.ucs.indiana.edu> Received: from dialin2.cpd.uva.es by wamba.cpd.uva.es with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA20052; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 01:27:12 +0100 From: "arrechea" To: Subject: Aesthetics: simetria Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 08:22:58 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "arrechea" Status: O X-Status: There is a important book over history of architectural thought in France that treat about conceptuall evolution of national clasicismo . W. Szambien *Symétrie, goût, caractére. Théorie et terminologie de l´architecture á l´áge classique 1550-1880* -Picard. 1986. Saludos Julio Arrechea Dpto. Architectural Theory Escuela Superior de Arquitectura. Valladolid __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Feb 26 13:56:52 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA01502 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:56:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA16444 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 13:56:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA11768 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:42:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA11737 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:42:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA21061 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:42:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.253]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id KAA11179 for ; Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:42:32 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970226104052.006b2fb4@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Feb 1997 10:40:58 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "Dr P.J. Phemister" (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: cfp Time in 18th Century Science and Art Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Dr P.J. Phemister" (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: ----- Forwarded from c18-l ------------ > Date: Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:13:05 +0100 > Reply-To: 18th Century Interdisciplinary Discussion > Sender: 18th Century Interdisciplinary Discussion > From: thierry belleguic > Subject: CALL FOR PAPERS. Annual conference of the Canadian Society > for XVIIIth Century Studies. > > Dear colleagues, > Would you be so kind as to circulate this information as widely as possible. > Cordially, > Thierry Belleguic > CANADIAN SOCIETY FOR XVIIIth CENTURY STUDIES THE UNIVERSITY OF WESTERN ONTARIO, (16-19 OCTOBER 1997) "REPRESENTATIONS OF TIME IN THE XVIIITH CENTURY" CALL FOR PAPERS You can: 1) simply send a paper proposal on any topic related to the conference theme; 2) indicate you wish to join a session already proposed by a colleague; 3) try to contact colleagues and propose a session of your choice. Possible orientations: 1) Epistemology of Time in the 18th Century How does science in the XVIIIth century approach the question of time? What instruments are at its disposal, what theories exist? To what extent and according to what modalities do epistemological theories in the XVIIIth century propose a reflection on time? What place is given to the notion of time in the "new cosmologies" in the new science of geology, and in the emerging reflexion on biological classification? 2) Representations of Time The goal is not to infer a mechanical relationship between epistemology and aesthetics, but rather to consider both of these in terms of a co-occurrence or of a reciprocal influence. In other words, how is time conceived of and represented within specific semiotic systems such as painting, sculpture, music, architecture and, of course, literature? What does it mean to think about and to represent time in painting and in sculpture? What is the significance of the poetics of the ruin, of Neo-classicism, in terms of an aesthetics of temporality? What topoi of time (its passage, suspension, beginning, end) are expressed in poety and literature? How does the novel conceptualize its actantial and narrative progress? To what extent are the diverse musical theories which confront each other in the XVIIIth century a symptom of diverging conceptions of time? 3) Conceptions of History Part one: the emergence of history as a social science. The history of ideas situates the emergence of history as a social science during the XVIIIth century. What conceptions of time and its passage appear in the wake of the new science of history? Part two: "fin de si=E8cle". To what extent is the "fin de si=E8cle" a privileged moment for reflecting on time? What political, philosophical, aesthetic, literary (etc) movements are born and what are the conclusions to be drawn about the understanding of time which informs them? Part three: history and the XVIIIth century. A reflection on time in the XVIIIth century also implies a study of its periodization. In this sense, the XVIIIth century in France, marked by the French Revolution, is very different from the XVIIIth century in England or Germany. This examination will lead to a consideration of the way in which the XIXth and XXth centuries represent the XVIIIth century (epistemological and ideological presuppositions, etc). An examination of our own presuppositions as "specialists" of the XVIIIth century will be most pertinent to this reflection, and a roundtable considering contemporary XVIIIth century studies would be most appropriate. 4) Varia Any other topic related to the problem of time and its representation in the XVIIIth century. Please note that the above suggestions are simply an invitation to consider the problem of time in its diversity: geographic (England, Spain, Italy France, etc); periodic (beginning, end of the century, and their relationship to temporality), etc. Comparative studies and syntheses are welcome. 5) Open sessions In accordance with the tradition of the society, papers not dealing directly with the theme of the colloquium will be welcomed and included in the program. THE PAPER PROPOSALS ARE TO BE SENT BEFORE APRIL, 30 TO: Thierry Belleguic, SCEDS/CSECS '97 Conference, University of Western Ontario, Department of =46rench, London, Ontario, N6A 3K7. Email address:csecs97@bosshog.arts.uwo.ca Tel.: 519-661-2163 =46ax.: 519-661-3470 Conference Web Site: http://www.uwo.ca/french/csecs97.html P.S. Some sessions have been proposed by members of the association. Should they be interested, we encourage members to get in touch with the people who have proposed sessions. Nevertheless, the paper proposals have to be sent to the conference organizer, indicating the session (for those who have managed to organize one) Sessions proposed so far (you can still organize a session by contacting interested colleagues): - "The Eighteenth Century on the Internet", proposed by John Rempel, Univ. of Manitoba, English, Winnipeg, Manitoba, R3T 2N2/B: 204-474-9678/H: 204-261-9952/fax: 204-275-1735/ e-mail: jrempel@cc.umanitoba.ca - "Time and Narratives of National History", proposed by Nergis Canefe, York University, Department of Social and Political Thought, Toronto/ 1083St Clarens Avenue, Toronto, M6H 3W8/tel-fax: 416-656-4554/E-mail: NGUNLUK@YORKU.CA - "Jane Austen in our Time" proposed by Barbara Seeber, University of Prince Edward Island, Dpt of English, Charlottetown, PEI, C1A 4P3/ tel. 902-566-0478/fax: 902-566-0363/e-mail: bseeber@upei.ca - "Time and History in the Eighteenth Century Garden", proposed by Lisa Zeitz, University of Western Ontario, Dpt of English, London, N6A 3K7/tel. 519-679-2111-5869/fax: 519-661-3776/e-mail: lzeitz@julian.uwo.ca I would hope that papers on gardens in both France and England might be accomodated in this session. While my own current work on the most famous English landscape garden of the Eighteenth century --Stowe-- lies behind this proposed session, I would also want to include papers on literary representations of gardens (in either poetry of prose). For example, how does the myth of Eden contribute to representations of an idealized past (or a world transcending time) and/or an idealized future? How are the inescapable passage of tiem, and the themes of change and growth treated in real and imaginary garden spaces? What about the way in which history is represented in "national" gardens? These are some of the issues that might be addressed in papers submitted to this sessions. - "Absolute Time versus Relative Time in the XVIIIth Century", proposed by Robert Walters, University of Western Ontario, Dpt of French, London, N6A 3K7. - "La repr=E9sentation du temps chez Rousseau", proposed by Antoine Sassine, Mount Royal College/e-mail: ASASSINE@MtRoyal.AB.CA - "The Consumption of Time and theProduction of Distance: Long Distance Travel, Long-Term Enterprises, and the Perception of Duration" by Kevin L. Cope, Department of English, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, 70803, U. S. A., telephone and answering machine 504-388-2864, =46AX 504-388-4129, e-mail 72310.3204@compuserve.com; and Brigitte Glaser, Englische Literaturwissenschaft, Katholische Universitaet Eichstaett, D-85072 Eichstaett, Germany, telephone 011-49-8421-931647, FAX 49-8421-931797, e-mail: sla026@eo-nwfs-1.ku-eichstaett.de This panel would allow participants to explore simultaneously a of frequently probed but seldom interrelated issues: the or "cognitive" encounter with time in a post-, reified-time environment; the experience of unavailable, long-term yet not permanent conditions activities such as sea voyages, exiles, exploratory journeys, and tourism on a grand scale or extended schedule; therepresentation of such time-extended events in literature and thearts; the relation between the consumption of time and consumption generally; incongruities of reading, travelling, andexperiential-cognitive time; feats of durability and other of the term-limits of individual humans; about ultra-long-term or preternaturally distantexploits such as space or time travel; and many other matters to that new range of Enlightenment experience, the long- term. - "Le temps et le voyage au XVIIIe si=E8cle/Time and Travel in the XVIIIth Century", proposed by Christine Roulston, UWO, French, London, N6A 3K7/ tel. 519-661-2163/fax: 519-661-3470/E-mail: croulsto@julian.uwo.ca - "Temps et utopie au XVIIIe si=E8cle/Time and Utopia in the XVIIIth Century", proposed by Helen Heller, Brescia College, Dpt of French, UWO, London/tel. 519-432-8353 (277)/fax: 519-679-6489 - "Musique et temporalit=E9 au XVIIIe si=E8cle/Music and Temporality in the XVIIIth Century", proposed by Lane Heller, UWO, French, London, N6A 3K7/ tel. 519-661-2163/fax: 519-661-3470 - "Le XVIIIe si=E8cle vu par la post=E9rit=E9/The Posterity of the Eighteent= h Century", proposed by Jean-Yves Dupraz, UWO, French, London, N6A 3K7/ tel. 519-661-2163/fax: 519-661-3470/ e-mail: artjyd@uwoadmin.uwo.ca Thierry Belleguic D=E9partement de fran=E7ais T=E9l=E9copieur: 519-661-3470 University of Western Ontario T=E9l: bureau: 519- 661-2111 (5721= ) London, Ontario secr=E9tariat: 519-661-2163 Canada N6A 3K7 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Feb 28 12:51:05 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA15349 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:51:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA27525 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA20955 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:09:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA20948 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (root@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA27330; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:09:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (x1s5p5.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.248.64]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id KAA05987; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:09:06 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970228100115.0068e590@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 10:03:51 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu, phil-lit@tamvm1.tamu.edu, musical-aesthetics@mailbase.ac.uk From: Anita Silvers (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: cfp World Congress of Philosophy Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Anita Silvers (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: ***Please Post****Please Forward*** A copy of the following announcement can be found at Aesthetics On-Line . As one of the chairs of the aesthetics and philosophy of arts section of the forthcoming 20th World Congress of Philosophy, I would like to invite you to submit a paper to the Congress. The process for submission is given below. Please send 3 copies, 3000 words, 20 line abstract, accompanied by an ASCII version on a high-density 3.5" computer disk, if possible. Papers may also be submitted electronically to paideia@bu.edu. September 1, 1997 is the deadline for the receipt of contributed papers, poster sessions, and proposals for round tables. Papers and other contributions received after this deadline but before January 1, 1998 may be accepted if space is still available. The address to send hard copy and disks is: World Congress of Philosophy American Organizing Committee Inc. 745 Commonwealth Ave. Boston MA USA 02215 The World Congress will be held in Boston August 10 - 16 1998. Many very interesting sessions are planned. thanks very much Anita Silvers Professor of Philosophy San Francisco State University __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Feb 28 15:27:03 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA21815 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA20260 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 15:27:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA29031 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA29024 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.lancs.ac.uk (mail2.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.8.13]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id MAA02602 for ; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 12:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from central-comms.lancs.ac.uk (actually host wins1.lancs.ac.uk) by mail2.lancs.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:37:32 +0000 Received: by central-comms.lancs.ac.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC259E.0F624450@central-comms.lancs.ac.uk>; Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:37:25 -0000 Message-ID: From: BRADY E To: "'SMTP:aesthetics@indiana.edu'" Subject: Aesthetics: Sibley conference programme Date: Fri, 28 Feb 1997 17:39:00 -0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 Encoding: 66 TEXT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: BRADY E Status: O X-Status: Programme details for the upcoming conference, 'Sibley and After' follow. (Website : http://www.lancs.ac.uk/users/philosophy/Sibley.htm ) 'Sibley and After': A Conference in Honour of Frank Sibley+s Aesthetics Thursday 3rd April-Sunday 6th April 1997, Charlotte Mason College, Ambleside, the Lake District, England John Benson (Lancaster University) +Sibley After Sibley+ Ted Cohen (University of Chicago) 'Frank Sibley and the Wonder of Aesthetic Language+ Terry Diffey (University of Sussex) +Art or Nature+ Cheryl Foster (University of Rhode Island) +I+ve Looked at Clouds from Both Sides Now: Can There Be Aesthetic Qualities in Nature?' Peter Kivy (Rutgers University) +Sibley+s Last Paper+ Peter Lamarque (University of Hull) +Properties +in+ and +attributed to+ Works of Art+ Jerrold Levinson (University of Maryland) +Aesthetic Description, Evaluative Force, and Differences of Sensibility+ Colin Lyas (Lancaster University) +The Manifold Logical Complexities of Adjectives+ Nick McAdoo (Open University) +Sibley and the Art of Persuasion+ Nick Zangwill (University of Glasgow) +Artistic Teleology and Identity+ Eddy Zemach (The Hebrew University of Jerusalem) +What is an Aesthetic Quality?+ Conference Charges Standard Rate (rate includes three nights+ accommodation, meals, tea and coffee, and registration fee) Study Bedroom Single: ?130.47 Study Bedroom Twin (per person): ?121.47 Non-residence Rate: ?21 (registration, coffee and tea) Please also note that four bursaries will be available for postgraduate students working in aesthetics (?62.50 each, funded by the Analysis Committee). Preference will be given to students whose research relates to Sibley+s work. If you are interested in a bursary, please contact the address below. Final registration deadline March 15. Contact: Dr. Emily Brady, Department of Philosophy, Furness College, Lancaster University, Lancaster LA1 4YG ENGLAND Tel: (0)1524 592495 e-mail: e.brady@lancaster.ac.uk fax:(0)1524 592503 http://www.lancs.ac.uk/users/philosophy/Sibley.htm Lancaster University Philosophy Department is grateful to the British Society of Aesthetics, The Mind Association, Lancaster University and the Analysis Committee for their support of this conference. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 3 17:38:30 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA13185 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:38:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA13708 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 17:38:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA05577 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:43:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA05517 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:43:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA11116 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:43:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.253]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/regexp($Revision: 1.3 $) with SMTP id OAA10711 for ; Mon, 3 Mar 1997 14:43:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970303142524.0069733c@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 03 Mar 1997 14:41:50 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: cfp Lewis Carroll Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O X-Status: University of Wales Cardiff THE LEWIS CARROLL PHENOMENON An Interdisciplinary Centenary Conference 1-5 April 1998 CALL FOR PAPERS Marking the centenary of the death of Charles Dodgson, the conference will take as its point of departure the writings of `Lewis Carroll'. Besides being a key figure in children's literature, Dodgson figures prominently in the cultural history of the Victorian period, and his writings are implicated in a growing number of debates current in critical theory, psychology and perception, the history of science, and pragmatics. Other possible topics might include: parody, pastiche and burlesque; mirrors, dreams and psychoanalysis; children's literature and the Victorian canon of `approved' reading; Sylvie and Bruno; Victorian sexualities and the eroticism of innocence; nonsense and postmodernism; constructing `Oxford': governing Topsy-turvydom: nonsense and Empire; Victorian theologies; orthodoxy versus heterodoxy. This list is not definitive; proposals for additional specialist panels will be especially welcomed. Participants Include: Gillian Beer, Morton Cohen, David Crystal, Richard Gregory, Peter Hunt, Fred Inglis, James Kincaid, Robin Lakoff, Jean-Jacques Lecercle, Roderick McGillis, Kimberley Reynolds, Judy Simons Abstracts for papers (maximum 25 minutes) to be received by 15th September, 1997 (decisions made by 31st October). Snail-mail: Karen Sands, "The Lewis Carroll Phenomenon", School of English Studies, Communication and Philosophy, University of Wales Cardiff, PO Box 94, CARDIFF CF1 3XB UK Fax to The Lewis Carroll Phenomenon: +44 1222 874502 E-mail: carroll-conference@cardiff.ac.uk Further details available at http://www.cf.ac.uk/uwcc/secap/carfest/carfest.html A number of bursaries are available for postgraduate students and those recently awarded PhDs but not yet in full-time employment Please alert interested colleagues in other disciplines to this conference __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 4 05:56:27 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA30883 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 05:56:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA23810 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 05:56:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id EAA12393 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 04:17:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id EAA12386 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 04:17:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from moe.serv.phil.ruu.nl (moe.serv.phil.ruu.nl [131.211.140.12]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA09938 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 04:17:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from hardy.phil.ruu.nl (hardy.phil.ruu.nl [131.211.140.150]) by moe.serv.phil.ruu.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5/KKm1.6) with ESMTP id KAA29267 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:16:12 +0100 (MET) Received: from [131.211.140.231] (rob.mac.staf.phil.ruu.nl [131.211.140.231]) by hardy.phil.ruu.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5/KKs1.6) with ESMTP id KAA21545 for ; Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:16:11 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: rob@mail.staf.phil.ruu.nl Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 4 Mar 1997 10:16:07 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Rob van Gerwen Subject: Aesthetics: Wollheim Web-page Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Rob van Gerwen Status: O X-Status: The web-page providing up-to-date information concerning the Utrecht Wollheim conference of 1st through 3rd May 1997 is now updated to contain the program and the forms required for registration and hotel reservation: http://www.phil.ruu.nl/events/Wollheim.html Bookmark this address to keep posted. Rob van Gerwen, Organisation _____________________________________________________________________________ Rob van Gerwen, Ph.D. Phone: + 31 30 2532087 Dept. of Philosophy Fax: + 31 30 2532816 Utrecht University Rob.vanGerwen@phil.ruu.nl P.O.Box 80.126 http://www.phil.ruu.nl/home/rob/rob.html 3508 TC Utrecht Utrecht Wollheim Conference, May 1-3, 1997: The Netherlands http://www.phil.ruu.nl/events/Wollheim.html _____________________________________________________________________________ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 5 17:07:46 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA21186 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:07:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA28543 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 17:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA06437 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:38:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA06401 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:38:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from gaudi.gc.cuny.edu (gaudi.gc.cuny.edu [146.96.64.20]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA32223 for ; Wed, 5 Mar 1997 14:38:31 -0500 (EST) From: tdemarco@email.gc.cuny.edu Received: from broadway.gc.cuny.edu (broadway.gc.cuny.edu) by GAUDI.GC.CUNY.EDU (PMDF V5.0-6 #18284) id <01IG5ATS0S4W00QFN8@GAUDI.GC.CUNY.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 05 Mar 1997 14:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (tdemarco@localhost) by broadway.gc.cuny.edu (8.8.5/ankDU-96) with SMTP id OAA03456 for ; Wed, 05 Mar 1997 14:38:27 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 05 Mar 1997 14:38:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: Marx W. Wartofsky X-Sender: tdemarco@broadway.gc.cuny.edu To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tdemarco@email.gc.cuny.edu Status: O X-Status: I am very sorry to inform this Aesthetics List that Professor Marx W. Wartofsky died yesterday, March 4, 1997 of cardiac arrest. Professor Wartofsky was Distinguished Professor of Philosophy at the Graduate School, City University of New York, and Chair and Professor of Philosophy at Baruch College, City University of New York, and Editor of the Philosophical Forum journal. Wartofsky's writings covered all areas of philosophy: metaphysics, epistemology, social and political philosophy, ethics, and especially aesthetics and philosophy of science. A Festschrift was published in his honor in 1995. He was a kind person, extremely generous, good-spirited, humorous, and his knowledge was encyclopedic. He was a colleague, teacher, mentor, and friend to many. We shall miss him greatly. As of today, a memorial service is planned for Friday, March 7, 1997 at the Riverside Memorial Funeral Chapel on Amsterdam Avenue and 76th Street in New York City, at 12 noon. Tobyn DeMarco City University of New York tdemarco@email.gc.cuny.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 6 16:44:52 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA05751 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:44:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA17850 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 16:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id NAA17223 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:55:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id NAA17214 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:55:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.captivate.com (NS.CAPTIVATE.COM [199.125.198.17]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA21300 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:55:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from active8.captivate.com ([199.125.198.105]) by mail.captivate.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA199 for ; Thu, 6 Mar 1997 13:56:36 -0500 Message-ID: <331F1448.CDB@gr8.com> Date: Thu, 06 Mar 1997 14:00:24 -0500 From: jason@gr8.com (Jason Baranowski) Organization: graffito/active8 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Press Release Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jason@gr8.com (Jason Baranowski) Status: O X-Status: To view this press release through your browser, go to: http://www.gr8.com/nga/ FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE NGA MAKES AN IMPRESSION AMONG TOP MUSEUM WEB SITES The National Gallery of Art and Graffito/Active8 team up to build a model Web site Baltimore, MD March 6, 1997: One of the most recent arrivals to the World Wide Web is the National Gallery of Art, Washington, D.C. NGA's site was unleashed to the public February 14, 1997. It's been well worth the wait for NGA to go public with the site, as it is one of the most extensive museum web sites currently available on-line. Much of the site's success is credited to the team NGA pulled together for the project which included Graffito/Active8, a marketing communications firm in Baltimore. The site's design revolves around three segments of visitors: the general public, researchers, and educators. NGA's goal was to pull together vast amounts of information regarding its collection, resources, exhibitions, historic information and programs. Their design philosophy emphasized that the site must "feel like" an NGA production; be "exceptional" in relation to Internet offerings of other cultural institutions; and be "active." One of the challenges was to allow easy access from any given point to any other point in the site with a minimum number of clicks. "Our role in the overall site design included establishing a design direction, consultation on layouts, information architecture, graphical user interface and organizational flow," said Graffito/Active8's president Craig Ziegler. "We have a reputation of being on the 'cutting edge' of design and technology, and that's reinforced through this site." A significant feature of the site is the ability to access the Gallery's extensive collection of over 100,000 works. The site provides a graphical interface to the powerful databases of information that the Gallery uses to support internal requests for information regarding the collection. Now, any work can be found in a matter of seconds through user oriented searches. Visitors can also enjoy on-line Gallery tours, access to educational resources, on-line purchases through the Gallery Shop, monthly updates on programs and events, and basics for planning a trip to the museum. All of these aspects are fused together in a way that's easy for the viewer to navigate and pinpoint information. The site features narrated audio tours, historical sound bytes and tours that enhance user experiences and leverage many of the museum's assets. In order to ensure that content is easily updated and expandable Graffito/Active8 compiled an on-line specifications guide for NGA's in-house design and production team. As a result, NGA's web site can create dynamic personal user experiences, just as the Gallery itself. NGA's new site is a definite role model for others in the future. Visit the site at http://www.nga.gov National Gallery of Art The National Gallery of Art belongs to the people of the United States of America and houses one of the finest collections in the world illustrating Western achievements in painting, sculpture and the graphic arts from the Middle Ages to the present. In the galleries, visitors will find the most comprehensive survey of Italian painting and sculpture in the Western Hemisphere, including the only painting by Leonardo da Vinci outside Europe. The collections are rich in French, Dutch, German, Flemish, British, American, Spanish, and twentieth-century art, with superb examples by Raphael, Rembrandt, and the impressionists. In addition to presenting special exhibitions of art from around the world each year, the Gallery offers educational programs and events such as gallery talks, guided school group tours, music and film programs, family activities, and the Museum's Micro Gallery. Contact: Robin Dowden National Gallery of Art http://www.nga.gov r-dowden@nga.gov Graffito/Active8 Graffito/Active8 is an award winning marketing communications firm located in Baltimore. The company is committed to developing high-end, corporate /organization program "messages" through various communications and technologies. Recent work also includes design and development on projects for AT&T, American Institute of Graphic Arts, USF&G, Premiere Technologies, dbIntellect (a division of EDS), Aexpert On-Line, Object Design Incorporated, Gerald Ford Museum, Bermuda Underwater Exploration Institute, American Association for the Advancement of Science, Virginia Science Museum, Pepsi Center and Encore Communications. Contact: Craig Ziegler, President Graffito/Active8 http://www.gr8.com craig@gr8.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 7 10:30:06 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA17370 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA24878 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 10:30:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id IAA04049 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:00:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id IAA04042 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailer.fsu.edu (mailer.fsu.edu [128.186.6.122]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA26999 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:00:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (pmatthew@localhost) by mailer.fsu.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA08114 for ; Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:00:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 7 Mar 1997 08:00:50 -0500 (EST) From: "Patricia M. Matthews" X-Sender: pmatthew@mailer To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Canadian Journal of Aesthetics In-Reply-To: <331F1448.CDB@gr8.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Patricia M. Matthews" Status: O X-Status: Does anyone have subscription information for the Canadian Journal of Aesthetics? Thanks, Pat Matthews __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 8 16:56:41 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA04022 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA30486 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:56:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA26509 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:15:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA26484 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:15:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from Nimbus.CAM.ORG (Nimbus.CAM.ORG [198.168.100.4]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA17674 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:15:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [205.151.119.109] (DynamicPPP-109.HIP.CAM.ORG [205.151.119.109]) by Nimbus.CAM.ORG (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA14144 for ; Sat, 8 Mar 1997 15:15:33 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: vyhvyh@POP.HIP.CAM.ORG (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 8 Mar 1997 16:33:23 -0400 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: vyhvyh@cam.org (Victor Yelverton Haines) Subject: Aesthetics: Re: AE Canadian Journal of Aesthetics Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: vyhvyh@cam.org (Victor Yelverton Haines) Status: O X-Status: AE The Journal of the Canadian Socity for Aesthetics/Societe canadienne d'esthetique is published electronically at the following website: http://tornade.ere.Umontreal.ca/~guedon/AE/ae.html One issue was published in 1996. Two or more issues are planned for 1997. I will note here the publication of the next issue. We are working on a style sheet for submission in electronic format, which I will post on this list serve. Victor Yelverton Haines >Does anyone have subscription information for the Canadian Journal of >Aesthetics? > >Thanks, > >Pat Matthews > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 10 11:13:16 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA24289 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA13292 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 11:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id JAA26966 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:08:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id JAA26940 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:08:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from europa.salford.ac.uk (europa.salford.ac.uk [146.87.3.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA01017 for ; Mon, 10 Mar 1997 09:08:33 -0500 (EST) From: M.Ormerod@Surveying.Salford.AC.UK Message-Id: <199703101408.JAA01017@cayman.ucs.indiana.edu> Received: from telford-056.salford.ac.uk by europa.salford.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:07:35 +0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is Organization: University of Salford To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 14:07:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: (Fwd) Re: (Fwd) Aesthetics: Canadian Journal of Aesthetics Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: M.Ormerod@Surveying.Salford.AC.UK Status: O X-Status: Apologies for any cross listings ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- To: M.Ormerod@surveying.salford.ac.uk From: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Subject: Re: (Fwd) Aesthetics: Canadian Journal of Aesthetics Date: Mon, 10 Mar 1997 08:44:51 -0500 > >Does anyone have subscription information for the Canadian Journal of >Aesthetics? The first issue is available electronically on the web. The address is: http://tornade.ere.Umontreal.ca/~guedon/AE/ae.html Cheers Linda DISCLAIMER - nothing in this e-mail is intentionally meant to offend and I do not exist I am just a figment of your imagination __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 13 20:32:58 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA27741 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA04473 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:32:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id SAA25983 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:56:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id SAA25961 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id SAA12051 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:56:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.150.128.124] ([142.150.128.124]) by bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <160065(5)>; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:56:35 -0500 X-Sender: linda.irvine@mailbox92.utcc.utoronto.ca (Unverified) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Subject: Aesthetics: 'Disinterestedness' Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:56:34 -0500 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Status: O X-Status: Hi Stolnitz defines aesthetic perception as "the disinterested and sympathetic attention to and contemplation of any object of awareness whatever, for its own sake alone". Not surprisingly, much debate has surrounded the idea of 'disinterested attention'. I believe that when disinterestedness is interpreted too narrowly by theorists, it provides the basis for a restrictive doctrine in which an object or living entity's intrinsic and formal properties are valued exclusively, divorced from original prposes, functions and contexts. When interpreted more broadly, however, disinterestedness implies simply that there is no purpose governing the experience other than the purpose of having the experience. In so doing, an indifferent, non-egoistic and non-moral attitude is adopted so that will and desire are held in abeyance. As such, we become totally aware and attentive to an entity's whole being, nature and character for its own sake alone. Accordingly, 'disinterested' aesthetic perception is characterized by a 'pointed mindfulness' which is alert and vigorous rather than distant and detached. It is the opposite of looking at things from the outside, but a way of seeing things as they are. I believe that we are desperately in need of an aesthetic theory which can provide the basis for recognizing the intrinsic value of all living beings; lived experience as a way of knowing and of being in the world, and; the right of existence of all entities for their own sake alone. My own work is focused towards this end. I'd be interested to hear from others who are exploring similar issues. Regards, Linda __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 13 21:52:27 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA29589 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA23915 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 21:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA11141 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:37:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA11125 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:37:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id UAA09073 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 20:37:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Thu, 13 Mar 97 17:37 PST Message-id: <2783641@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 13 Mar 97 17:37:14 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: 'Disinterestedness' To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O X-Status: linda's description of aesthetic perception is surely too broad in at least one respect: it doesn't follow from the fact that one's attention to a perceived object is disinterested that we become "totally aware and attentive to an entity's whole being, nature and character..." One may just be interested (disinterestedly) in how the thing looks. What Linda describes sounds more like what might be called moral perception (of one kind at least). bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 13 14:26:22 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA17740 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:26:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA06365 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 14:26:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA20576 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:13:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA20560 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:13:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from mserv.rug.ac.be (mserv.rug.ac.be [157.193.40.37]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id MAA32143 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 12:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from allserv.rug.ac.be by mserv.rug.ac.be with SMTP id AA22120 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:12:12 +0100 Received: from dlup1p03.rug.ac.be by allserv.rug.ac.be (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id SAA12350; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:11:22 +0100 Message-Id: <3328BEAC.380E@allserv.rug.ac.be> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 18:57:48 -0800 From: Wilfried Van Damme Organization: University of Ghent X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: new publication X-Url: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/net/aesthetics-list.html Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Wilfried Van Damme Status: O X-Status: New publication: Beauty in Context: Towards an Anthropological Approach to Aesthetics. Leiden, New York, Koln: Brill, 1996. (Philosophy of History and Culture, 17). __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 14 00:20:12 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA32474 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:20:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA20215 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:20:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA02275 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:57:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA02268 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:57:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from sardonyx.tufts.edu (root@sardonyx.tufts.edu [130.64.5.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA24785 for ; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:56:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by sardonyx.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id WAA00395; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:56:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jharbeck@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA08856; Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:56:34 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 13 Mar 1997 22:56:34 -0500 (EST) From: James Harbeck To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: 'Disinterestedness' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O X-Status: I find it interesting that there was no questioning of "for its own sake alone" or of "seeing things as they are," given how often current conceptions of identity view it as dialectical (in the question of interpersonal relation) or even virtually entirely a creation of the perceiver. Certainly it is a difficult proposition to suggest that one can ever appreciate an other person or object truly for its own sake, given that our understanding of what its own sake may be is our own construction, however closely it may match other constructions of the same. But on the other hand I find it very refreshing to see a focus on this angle, on the attempt to allow others to be as fully as possible on their own terms; and if we consider that the terms an object or person has for an external percipient, though individual to that percipient and not entirely accessible to the original object or person (inasmuch as it is conscious etc.), may be considered to pertain to, belong to, even be a definable part of, that object or person, we see that the free(er)-roaming associations that the aesthetically perceptive act tends to involve (i.e. a specifically enfranchised attendance of emotionally valued properties as a central element of the system-code, to use semiotic terms) will be an enlargement of the being of that person or object, especially as they affect the dialectical construction of its being in which the percipient participates. (Apologies for the convoluted sentence structure.) Perhaps the even more interesting thing here is how much this aesthetic act begins to look like love. "If you love somebody, set them free..." We know oh so many sayings etc. which define love as a willingness to let the other person be and do what is best for him or her. To the extent that aesthetic perception takes objects on their own terms, it would seem to be largely the same thing. Of course, the question remains as to whether this is really what aesthetic perception is. Is it so unselfish? Or, on the other hand, need it be purely unselfish, can it simply be LESS selfish, LESS constrictive of the perceived other than our usual perceptions are? Naturally, there are other issues. Love between persons usually contains an erotic element, which means the possibility of fulfillment of physical desires: this is the projected future we tend to have in such relationships, and perhaps the possibility of this reward makes us more inclined to treat the other with what has been defined as love, above, just as the potential for affirmations from our friends who are not erotic objects for us likewise perhaps conditions our willingness to love them. Nonetheless, I'd hate to think that there is no element of genuine empathy involved. At any rate, the erotic expectation is of course absent from aesthetic appreciation of art objects; from them, rather, we expect and receive consequence-free experience of emotion, which is a kind of learning and thus a natural inclination of the human brain. (Yes, that IS a rather simplistic way of putting it. But I suppose brevity is best.) But perhaps at base there is again the question of this love, this allowing them to be as fully what they are as possible, in exchange for which incidentally we gain an expansion in our minds of our conception of what they and therefore the universe may be, which enlarges us too. So by letting go we enlarge the both of us. And yet there is still this question of definition: the enlargement tends to take place in definite directions, and there is the idea that a given thing or person has an identity which is rather less than "everything". So a certain limitation is necessary in the first place before the further expansion may take place. Good golly, this begins to sound a bit like a positive-attitude spin on the later Sartre. I'll stop there. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 14 05:30:06 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA04847 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 05:30:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA21048 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 05:30:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA21341 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 03:46:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA21334 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 03:46:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.3/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA09249 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 03:46:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante15.u.washington.edu (dante15.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.41]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id AAA04686; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:43:06 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante15.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id AAA66418; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:46:30 -0800 Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 00:46:30 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: 'Disinterestedness' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Linda, It seems what you're addressing is a semantic problem, i.e. how people understand the word "disinterested." You seem to be calling for a "disinterest" in the surrounding world, or in surrounding distractions in contemplating the art object. The Stolnitz quote seems to be saying quite the opposite--that we retain a disinterested stance in order to better see how the art object is a part of the larger world. I agree with you that we are in desparate need of an aesthetic theory that can recognize the intrinsic value of things, but this is is best described as "interested" and not "dis-interested." Without turning this into a discussion of lexical usage, I would like to know more about your concept of a "lived" experience--does that mean sensing life with the body, externally and internally, etc? Thanks... _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle On Thu, 13 Mar 1997 linda.irvine@utoronto.ca wrote: > Hi > > Stolnitz defines aesthetic perception as "the disinterested and sympathetic > attention to and contemplation of any object of awareness whatever, for its > own sake alone". Not surprisingly, much debate has surrounded the idea of > 'disinterested attention'. I believe that when disinterestedness is > interpreted too narrowly by theorists, it provides the basis for a > restrictive doctrine in which an object or living entity's intrinsic and > formal properties are valued exclusively, divorced from original prposes, > functions and contexts. > > When interpreted more broadly, however, disinterestedness implies simply > that there is no purpose governing the experience other than the purpose of > having the experience. In so doing, an indifferent, non-egoistic and > non-moral attitude is adopted so that will and desire are held in abeyance. > As such, we become totally aware and attentive to an entity's whole being, > nature and character for its own sake alone. Accordingly, 'disinterested' > aesthetic perception is characterized by a 'pointed mindfulness' which is > alert and vigorous rather than distant and detached. It is the opposite of > looking at things from the outside, but a way of seeing things as they are. > > > I believe that we are desperately in need of an aesthetic theory which can > provide the basis for recognizing the intrinsic value of all living beings; > lived experience as a way of knowing and of being in the world, and; the > right of existence of all entities for their own sake alone. My own work is > focused towards this end. I'd be interested to hear from others who are > exploring similar issues. > > Regards, > Linda > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 14 09:26:46 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA06613 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:26:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA01128 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 09:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id HAA24746 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:51:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id HAA24734 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:51:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA03035 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:51:08 -0500 (EST) From: JDuBose494@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA24695 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:49:53 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 07:49:53 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970314074953_448007949@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu cc: JDuBose494@aol.com Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetics Guild Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: JDuBose494@aol.com Status: O X-Status: To All, This is an idea that has been forming within me ever since I started painting, writing short stories, poems and songs (1978, I'm 31 now). I have just sent off a request for a grant from the GOV for finances to start an Aesthetics Guild. My feeling is to get together artist from all fields and create a working field for all artist in the area in which the group is started to grow. I feel the arts are apart from each other and do not know their beginings; Aesthetics. I would like it if you could give me some input to the idea. I am still working out the kinks so if you would a like a full descripstion I can give you the requset that I am sending to the military (I am From NY stationed in NC {Ft. Bragg}.) Lately I've realized that this is the old school that needs some real looking into the self. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 14 13:57:54 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA00067 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:57:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA06397 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 13:57:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA17211 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:26:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA17204 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:26:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.derby.ac.uk (unix2.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA18749 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 11:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [193.60.146.194] (bm-mac194.derby.ac.uk [193.60.146.194]) by unix2.derby.ac.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA17913 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 16:24:37 GMT Message-Id: <199703141624.QAA17913@unix2.derby.ac.uk> Subject: Aesthetics: 'Disinterest' and dialectics Date: Fri, 14 Mar 97 16:26:31 -0000 x-sender: aart579@unix1.derby.ac.uk x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Giles Peaker To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Giles Peaker Status: O X-Status: James Harbeck wrote: > I find it interesting that there was no questioning of "for its >own sake alone" or of "seeing things as they are," given how often current >conceptions of identity view it as dialectical (in the question of >interpersonal relation) or even virtually entirely a creation of the >perceiver. Certainly it is a difficult proposition to suggest that one can >ever appreciate an other person or object truly for its own sake, given >that our understanding of what its own sake may be is our own >construction, however closely it may match other constructions of the >same. But on the other hand I find it very refreshing to see a focus on >this angle, on the attempt to allow others to be as fully as possible on >their own terms; [...] >But >perhaps at base there is again the question of this love, this allowing >them to be as fully what they are as possible, in exchange for which >incidentally we gain an expansion in our minds of our conception of what >they and therefore the universe may be, which enlarges us too. So by >letting go we enlarge the both of us. And yet there is still this question >of definition: the enlargement tends to take place in definite directions, >and there is the idea that a given thing or person has an identity which >is rather less than "everything". So a certain limitation is necessary in >the first place before the further expansion may take place. The discussion on disinterest set me musing, please forgive a mail form a recent interloper. If it is the recognition of the other as both being 'in' and 'for' itself that could be described as disinterested, then it is perhaps not just love but self consciousness itself that is involved (which is also an answer to the question of the 'creation of the perceiver'). Hegel's dialectic of self consciousness posits this as the fundamental moment of difference (the other is autonomous with regard to the self) and identity (this is how the self can perceive its own autonomy). But, ignoring the struggles that follow (Lordship and Bondsman), such a vision of the 'in and for itself' sounds very close to Kantian Beauty (purposive purposelessness). The 'for itself' is significant here. Whilst Kant insists this is a perception, not a knowable property of the object (with reference to Linda's mail), could one semi- mischievously suggest that one's 'disinterested' reaction to an artwork involves taking the artwork as an autonomous subject? Giles Giles Peaker Historical and Theoretical Studies, School of Art and Design University of Derby. Britannia Mill, Mackworth Road. Derby DE22 3BL (U.K.) (01332) 622222 ext. 4063 G.Peaker@derby.ac.uk Editorial collective: Detours and Delays. An Occasional Journal of Aesthetics and Politics. http://art.derby.ac.uk/~detours/detours.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 14 19:15:51 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA23226 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:15:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA13793 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 19:15:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA08975 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:59:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA08943 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:59:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mule0.mindspring.com (mule0.mindspring.com [204.180.128.166]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA24385 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:59:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from ip78.isdn2-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net (ip78.isdn2-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.38.78]) by mule0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id RAA36396 for ; Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:59:14 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mule0.mindspring.com: ip78.isdn2-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.38.78] didn't use HELO protocol Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970314225916.0067dfac@pop.pipeline.com> X-Sender: minsky@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 14 Mar 1997 17:59:16 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Minsky Subject: Re: Aesthetics: 'Disinterestedness' Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Minsky Status: O X-Status: James Harbeck observes: >Love between persons usually contains an erotic element, which means the possibility of fulfillment of physical desires< I'm all for bringing Love into any discussion, but here Agape might be more relevant than Eros (though much of Art goes that way as well). Perhaps one might delve further into the physiologic responses suggested by this thread, and consider the stimulation of Endorphins in the aesthetic experience (and other endocrine stimulation as well). Richard http://minsky.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 15 14:21:08 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA02282 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:21:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA01676 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 14:21:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA12431 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:58:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA12420 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA01848 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu ([134.68.242.29]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/regexp($Revision: 1.3 $) with SMTP id MAA06236 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:57:53 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970315123345.006c14a0@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 12:52:34 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: uncover@csi.carl.org (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: UnCover Reveal - International review of the aesthetics and socio Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: uncover@csi.carl.org (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: JT International review of the aesthetics and socio DA JUN 01 1996 v 27 n 1 PG 3 AU Hughes, Jenny TI Idealist Thought and Music Theory in Nineteenth-Century Germany: K. C. F. Krause, Dissonance, and >>Coming-To-Be<<. SI 0351-5796(19960601)27:1L.3:ITMT;1- >> Profile #: 1085015 UnCover #: 251,077,113,106 JT International review of the aesthetics and socio DA JUN 01 1996 v 27 n 1 PG 13 AU Micznik, Vera TI Textual and Contextual Analysis: Mahler's Fifth Symphony and Scientific Thought. SI 0351-5796(19960601)27:1L.13:TCAF;1- >> Profile #: 1085015 UnCover #: 251,077,113,112 JT International review of the aesthetics and socio DA JUN 01 1996 v 27 n 1 PG 31 AU Juzl, Milos TI Music and the Totalitarian Regime in Czechoslovakia. SI 0351-5796(19960601)27:1L.31:MTRC;1- >> Profile #: 1085015 UnCover #: 251,077,113,117 JT International review of the aesthetics and socio DA JUN 01 1996 v 27 n 1 PG 53 AU Inglis, Ian TI Ideology, Trajectory & Stardom: Elvis Presley & The Beatles. SI 0351-5796(19960601)27:1L.53:ITSE;1- >> Profile #: 1085015 UnCover #: 251,077,113,142 JT International review of the aesthetics and socio DA JUN 01 1996 v 27 n 1 PG 79 AU Carlton, Richard A. TI Man As a Musical Animal. SI 0351-5796(19960601)27:1L.79:MMA;1- >> Profile #: 1085015 UnCover #: 251,077,113,147 JT International review of the aesthetics and socio DA JUN 01 1996 v 27 n 1 PG 87 AU Broeckx, Jan L. TI Music and Language. On the Pretended Inadequacy of Music As a Language of Feelings. SI 0351-5796(19960601)27:1L.87:MLPI;1- >> Profile #: 1085015 UnCover #: 251,077,113,154 -- The REVEAL Table of Contents service is supplied to you by the UnCover Company. If you desire further information or assistance, please phone us at 800.787.7979 (outside the US at 303.758.3030), or electronic mail to: uncover@carl.org. Thank you for using REVEAL. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 15 21:48:02 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04269 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:48:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA18670 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 21:48:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA18284 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 20:24:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA18276 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 20:24:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id UAA13178 for ; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 20:24:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.150.128.204] ([142.150.128.123]) by bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <159784(8)>; Sat, 15 Mar 1997 20:24:21 -0500 X-Sender: linda.irvine@mailbox92.utcc.utoronto.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) From: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Subject: Aesthetics: Response to 'Disinterestedness' Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Sat, 15 Mar 1997 20:24:08 -0500 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Status: O X-Status: Bill Peck wrote: >linda's description of aesthetic perception is surely too broad in at least one >respect: it doesn't follow from the fact that one's attention to a perceived >object is disinterested that we become "totally aware and attentive to an >entity's whole being, nature and character..." One may just be interested >(disinterestedly) in how the thing looks. What Linda describes sounds more >like what might be called moral perception (of one kind at least). > Linda's response: I believe that by being simply interested in "just how (a) thing looks" is problematic and reflective of a dualistic Western empiricist aesthetic tradition of which we must free ourselves. In re-reading the writings of Jerome Stolnitz (1969) I have found in his work a desire to understand and explain how we can appreciate an object (or living entity) for "its own sake alone" and in a manner which breaks free of reductionistic and formalistic traditions. For me, it is refreshing that Stolnitz's definition of disinterested, contemplative and sympathetic aesthetic attention has a decidedly Eastern (Zen Buddhist) tone to it, and for this reason, I believe that he gets very close (as a Westerner) to explaining how we can apprehend an object (or living entity) aesthetically -- in its own right -- in order to relish its individual qualities. I would argue that this is not 'moral perception', as Bill Peck contends, but 'aesthetic perception', plain and simple. Regards, Linda __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 16 06:14:22 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA10536 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 06:14:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA13995 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 06:14:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id EAA16366 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 04:59:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id EAA16335 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 04:59:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id EAA01980 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 04:58:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Sun, 16 Mar 97 01:58 PST Message-id: <2797705@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 16 Mar 97 01:58:31 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Aesthetics: 'Disinteresteness' and 'things in themselves' To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: The choice of the word 'disinterested' to characterize a certain way of regarding things that have aesthetic qualities is unfortunate. To say that one disinterested is to say that one is impartial, neutral, or (as in law), bound to behave as if one were. A marriage counselor would, one hopes, be disinterested in this sense, as would a football referee. (I grant that the use of 'disinterested' for 'uninterested' is widespread, but this particular illiteracy shouldn't concern us.) It's likely that what's behind this sort of talk is Clive Bell's notion of significant form, various theories of detachment, 'aesthetic distance,' etc. It's also clear that it's one more tired example of the ineluctable modality of the visible. That one could sit through the St. Matthew Passion and not respond to it emotionally, thereby enabling one to 'hear it for its own sake,' is incomprehensible to me. That one could 'view' Robert Lowell's 'Mr. Edwards And The Spider,' and see it only as a set of formal relationships--or, worse yet, as a series of marks on a page, divided by a printer's use of spaces--thus ignoring its sound and sense--is simply incoherent, for whatever this would be, it wouldn't be reading. Stolnitz says, somewhat redundantly, that aesthetic perception is "the disinterested and sympathetic attention to and contemplation of any object of awareness whatever, for its own sake alone," If I were to pay attention to a loaf of bread 'for its own sake,' then, no matter how hungry I was, I would not be contemplating eating it. (I have no idea, really, what I would be doing; people who talk this way seldom provide instructions.) Similarly, if I were to 'pay attention to,' or 'contemplate,' another human being in this way, I could not be regarding her as a friend, lover, source of wisdom, someone who might give me directions to the post office, etc. I could not be interested in her mind or her morals or her talents or her sense of humor or her her eyes or her toes or her ancestors or her offspring. This 'person,' now stripped of all sources of potential interest, simply appears, as do most such figments of the philosophical imagination, devoid of qualities or context. There is nothing above, below, behind, before, beyond, or to either side of her. She has no place in any narrative. She appears as might a Russellian sense-datum--an object of immediate awareness, that I must somehow observe or pay attention to for its own sake, because it is what it is. Any inferences I might draw from the sense-datum (or from this fictional 'person') would be irrelevant to understanding either it or her 'for their own sakes.' Yet, somehow, this bleak regard is supposed to yield "an indifferent, non-egoistic and non-moral attitude [such that] will and desire are held in abeyance," [as a result of which] "we become totally aware and attentive to an entity's whole being, nature and character for its own sake alone." Now whatever one is to make of this it does not seem quite right to characterize it as a way of viewing a person (or a parakeet) that will enable us to "recogniz[e] the intrinsic value of all living beings." My wife is funny and honest. My dog is furry and friendly. When I met my wife I was attracted (simple soul that I am) by certain traits and qualities that she had. I did not stand aloof and regard her 'disinterestedly,' without concern for these traits and qualities. I thought that I was meeting a human being who saw me as another human being with certain traits and qualities and quirks of my own. I did not believe that I was meeting an object of aesthetic contemplation. ('Sorry, I can't laugh at your jokes, cry on your shoulder, or take your hand in mine--I'm trying to see you for yourself alone. In fact, it would be best if you didn't speak or move, so that I might regard you without distraction.') Where should one try to focus one's gaze when one so regards another human being? Three inches in front of the tip of her nose? Just above her head, so that it will seem that one is looking into her eyes, when in fact one is staring into the middle distance? Are these questions crass? Take a watch that is cunningly made, an intricate little machine, its ergon wound up in its mainspring, its telos ticking. Admire its intricacy, its workmanship, its delicately carved case. Has one in so doing gone beyond one's brief? Certainly if one admires its *accuracy* one will be regarding it as a merely utilitarian thing. Can one admire a watch without understanding that it is a device for keeping time? Yes, in a certain sense, perhaps. But can one admire it *as a watch* without taking this into account? I wouldn't have thought so. What about dogs and people? I don't want a furry, friendly dog, I say to the breeder. I just want a dog that exemplifies its essential whatness without bounding to greet me or chasing a ball, or sleeping on the end of the bed. All of these things are external to the dog. I want to appreciate the dog, to see the dog, *for its own sake*. I have begun to sound like a mad Platonist. But that was to be expected. If it were really true that we could 'aesthetically perceive' and 'contemplate' our fellow human beings without regard to their relation to us, their thoughts, beliefs, virtues, and vices, strengths and frailties, we would indeed be treating them as mere objects. We would not be seeing more deeply into them or seeing them as they 'really were.' Either we would not be seeing them at all, or we would be seeing them as mere objects. I cannot imagine viewing my wife, my children, my friends and colleagues in this remarkable and dehumanizing way. Some may see heaven in a wildflower; others may see it in the shimmer of the barrel of an AK-47. I would really prefer to know what I was looking at before I arrogantly pronounced that I knew it for itself. All good wishes, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 00:20:20 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA16521 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:20:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA09441 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:20:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA02080 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:41:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA02072 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:41:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [206.190.65.4]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA12969 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:41:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (nc169-46.thegrid.net [207.114.169.46]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA18600 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:41:34 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2837907@isis.Reed.EDU> References: Conversation <2837907@isis.Reed.EDU> with last message <2837907@isis.Reed.EDU> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "The Verhaeghs" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Date: Wed, 20 Mar 85 20:29:23 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "The Verhaeghs" Status: O X-Status: As Bill Peck points out, Kant provides a means of distinguishing betw= een the judgments typical of a judge, a scientist, etc., and judgments = of taste. The latter are namely understood by Kant as being made withou= t interest in the real existence of the object perceived, and hence witho= ut interest in the relation of the object to one's goals and ends. In fact, as I understand him, for Kant it is not really the object its= elf which gives the subject pleasure; it is the mental representation = which the subject forms of the object. That Kant understand this pleasure= to be "disintersted"--and therefore "communicable"-- in the case of judg= ment of beauty follows from his theory of the subject. To put this theory perhaps somewhat crudely: Kant holds that every sub= ject has the same basic cognitive structure (i.e., that "proven" in the = First Critique as necessary for a subject to have knowledge). Therefore,= argues Kant, if contemplation of a mental representation causes pleasure= due soley to the way it stimulates a subject's cognitive faculties (i.e,= rather than due to stimulation of the subject's desires, interest in the= good, etc.), every other subject will be able to take the same pleasure = in this contemplation. This is not, of course, meant to entail that every subject will in fac= t take this pleasure. But Kant does hold that to judge something beatifu= l is to make a judgment which applies universally--one is "judging" that = everyone ought to find the judged object beatiful as well. A crucial problem with Kant's account would clearly seem to be his the= ory of the subject, which I think is formed without proper cognizance of = the differences in cognitive faculties actually existing between individuals (of diferent genders, cul= tures, etc.). This lack of recognition of differences in cognitive facul= ties translates, I would argue, into a lack of cognizance of the differe= nces which exist in what will prove aesthetically stimulating for various= individuals. One cannot simply be unversally "disinterested": one can = only attempt to use one's "sensus communs" to attempt to overcome the bli= ndnesses tied-up in one's specific situation, and thereby take-up a more = communal perspective. = Marcus Verhaegh P.S. I apologize if this posting was too long. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 02:56:02 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA11006 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:56:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA21323 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:56:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id BAA10409 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:24:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id BAA10402 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [206.190.65.4]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA19375 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:23:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (nc169-46.thegrid.net [207.114.169.46]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA07302; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:23:24 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Roger Seamon" Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "The Verhaeghs" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Date: Wed, 20 Mar 85 23:11:54 PST Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "The Verhaeghs" Status: O X-Status: Kant does not argue that "the reality of an object means that in assess= ing statements about it my interests come into play." His argument is that = [certain of] one's interests do not come into play when "the reality of the object" = is not of concern: one is not interested in possessing the object, in = using the object, in the danger the object might pose, etc.. (Given that this conflicts with the fact that we often do have a desir= e to own beatiful objects, one might wonder if either this desire is a = sign of less-than-tasteful aesthetic response or if Kant doesn't know wha= t he is talking about. But one might construct an account in keeping wit= h Kant along the lines of: the desire to own is secondary to the aesthet= ic experience, being a desire to prolong or have easily available the par= ticular kind of experience in question. But then again, wouldn't this = be to "use" the object for aesthetic pleasure?) So it doesn't necessarily pose difficulties for Kant's account to poin= t out that a scientist too is disinterested. What Kant would seem to hav= e found so, um, interesting about aesthetic judgments is not so much that= they involve disinterestedness, but that they involve a disinterestednes= s not founded in cool cognitive truth or un-yielding moral law, but in = the sense-drenched experience of particulars. ---------- > In regard to science and law, pace Kant, isn't a scientist supposed to > judge without regard to any goals or interests other than truth? I don= 't > see why Kant says that the reality of an object means that in assessing > statements about it my interests come into play. Similarly, with a jud= ge, > I don;t see that he is in any different position. I want to broaden = the > idea of disinteredness [speaking of not being disinterested] in order = to > take the heat off the aesthetic as if involves some peculiarly remote = and > disembodied response, something that we don't encounter routinely, and > expect on a daily basis. It may be that the subject matter of art, lik= e > the subject matter of social sciences, makes disinteredness more > difficultt and problematic than the sort of thing one finds in the natu= ral > sciences, but that is anothermatter. > > Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 > Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 > University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 > Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 16 10:25:10 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA11342 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:25:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA09536 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:25:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id JAA18583 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id JAA18576 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:07:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from mserv.rug.ac.be (mserv.rug.ac.be [157.193.40.37]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id JAA20455 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 09:07:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from allserv.rug.ac.be by mserv.rug.ac.be with SMTP id AA13830 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:07:06 +0100 Received: from dlup1p15.rug.ac.be by allserv.rug.ac.be (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA05095; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:05:50 +0100 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 15:05:50 +0100 Message-Id: <199703161405.PAA05095@allserv.rug.ac.be> X-Sender: wvndamme@allserv.rug.ac.be (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Wilfried Van Damme Subject: Aesthetics: addition to 'new publication' Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Wilfried Van Damme Status: O X-Status: Dear reader, A few days ago I drew your attention to a new publication, without mentioning the name of the author (!): Wilfried van Damme, Beauty in Context: Towards an Anthropological Approach to Aesthetics, Leiden, New York, Koln: Brill, 1996 (Philosophy of History and Culture, 17). 400 pp., 16 ill., ISBN 90 04 10608 1 Best wishes, Wilfried __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 16 12:12:22 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA11932 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:12:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA23737 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 12:12:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA20161 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:53:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA20154 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:53:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA26042 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 10:53:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA28972 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:53:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 07:53:37 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: Is anyone familiar with the paintings of Jean Koeller, and would be willing to vet "a Heideggerian Meditation" on them? Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 16 17:41:38 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA15011 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:41:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA01462 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 17:41:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA25436 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:02:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA25429 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from mserv.rug.ac.be (mserv.rug.ac.be [157.193.40.37]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id QAA22617 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 16:02:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from allserv.rug.ac.be by mserv.rug.ac.be with SMTP id AA24163 (5.67b/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 16 Mar 1997 22:01:11 +0100 Received: from dlup1p04.rug.ac.be by allserv.rug.ac.be (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA12692; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 21:59:51 +0100 Date: Sun, 16 Mar 1997 21:59:51 +0100 Message-Id: <199703162059.VAA12692@allserv.rug.ac.be> X-Sender: wvndamme@allserv.rug.ac.be (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Wilfried Van Damme Subject: Aesthetics: More info on "Beauty in Context" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Wilfried Van Damme Status: O X-Status: Tina Watling kindly suggested that I give you some more information on the contents of "Beauty in Context", Brill, 1996. Here is what the blurb says: "This is the first study to survey the field of the anthropology of aesthetics, which during the last few decades has emerged on the cross-raods between anthropology and non-Western art scholarship. While critically examining the available literature, thereby addressing such basic issues as the existence of aesthetic universals, the author elaborates on a central thesis which concerns the relationship between aesthetic preference and sociocultural ideals. Drawing on empirical data from several African cultures, he demonstrates that varying notions of beauty are inspired by varying sociocultural ideals, thus shedding light on the phenomenon of cultural relativism in aesthetic preference. Emphasizing unity within diversity, the systematic anthropological approach offered in this volume invites the reader to reconsider aesthetic preference from an empirical, cross-cultural, and contextual perspective." >From the Contents: I Introduction: Anthropology and Aesthetics Outline of an Anthropological Approach Aesthetics and the Impediments to its Study in Anthropology A Survey of Empirical Studies in Non-Western Aesthetics II The Concept of Aesthetics in Cross-Cultural Perspective Aesthetics Defined in the Anthropological Literature The Aesthetic Realm Towards a Multisensorial Approach III Universalism in Aesthetics The Universalistic Position in Aesthetics Experimental Psychology and Transcultural Agreement in Aesthetic Preference Pluriculturally Applied Aesthetic Criteria Possible Sources of Pluriculturally Applied Aesthetic Criteria IV Relativism in Aesthetics The Relativistic Position in Aesthetics Robbins on Beauty and Built Environment Newcomer on Beauty and Wealth V Aesthetic Preference and Empirical Research: Epistemology Aesthetic Preference and Verbalizability Formalism and Contextualism Aesthetic Perception and Cognition VI Aesthetic Preference and Empirical Research: Methodology The Study of Art Criticism The Study of the Artist The Study of the Aesthetic Vocabulary The Study of Objects VII Beauty in Context (Part One): Aesthetic Preference and Sociocultural Ideals among the Baule and the Fang The Baule: Beauty and the Ideal Human Being The Fang: Beauty and Vitality VIII Beauty in Context (Part Two): Aesthetic Preference and Sociocultural Ideals among the Igbo and the Asante The Igbo: Beauty and Achievement The Asante: Beauty and Sociocultural Change Epilogue __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 16 21:35:42 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA16276 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 21:35:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA32599 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 21:35:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA29062 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:21:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA29047 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:21:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from post.tau.ac.il (post.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.11]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA12260 for ; Sun, 16 Mar 1997 20:21:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from 9.tau.ac.il (ppp8-1.tau.ac.il [132.66.250.81]) by post.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id EAA20785 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 04:22:19 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <332C9C51.4116@post.tau.ac.il> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 03:20:17 +0200 From: igal dotan X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: recourse Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: igal dotan Status: O X-Status: Dear fellows, I'm working on my thesis (aesthtic values and evaluation) and wondering if there are already attepts to explain the artistic object as a complex system (complexity theory). I would be pleased to say more about this, but for the meantime, Im looking for some input. Just as a hint, I may say that Goodman's theory of denotation ('When is Art?'; 'Languages of Art') And Davidson's analysis of Metaphor - both are suggested to be a starting point. So, if any of you have read or heard of such an odd idea, or even think of posible elaborations, pleas notify me. THANKS, IGAL DOTAN (TEL-AVIV UN: ISRAEL) __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 17 14:42:53 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA27228 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:42:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA28158 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:42:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA11781 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:13:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA11774 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id MAA21596 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 12:13:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 17 Mar 97 11:13:00 -0600 Received: from x94-245-180.ejack.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 17 Mar 97 11:12:59 -0600 From: "Romain Gril" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: One word on "disinterestedness" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.5 Message-Id: <332d7b9c297d851@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 11:13:01 -0600 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Romain Gril" Status: O X-Status: Bonjour, I am only a humble student in philosophy. I apologize to those who will object to the possible simplicity of my remark. I also apologize for its length. James Harbeck wrote: "At any rate, the erotic expectation is of course absent from aesthetic appreciation of art objects; from them, rather, we expect and receive consequence-free experience of emotion, which is a kind of learning and thus a natural inclination of the human brain." I must say I am not big on the "disinterestedness" issue. First, it seems to me that we are having a problem defining the term, and that we end up talking about different things altogether. That aesthetic experience involves learning is a theory that has had supporters since Aristotle; however, I think it is a little straightforward to put it this way. In any case, talking about emotions or about a cognitive experience seems to challenge "disinterestedness." Now, what, I believe, is meant by whatever terms we choose to use is that the aesthetic basically occurs in contemplation. This makes it a form of pleasure that has to do with the objective features of the object under examination. However, as Kant showed it in a nicer way than I could, if there is pleasure, then it is because the subject experiences a satisfaction, a gratification of some sort. Pleasure is by definition very subjective. My idea is that we will always have a problem defining the modes and requirements of the aesthetic until we manage to explain why something in an object can give me a form that particular form of pleasure that has to do with contemplation. I like to think that the aesthetic deals with the formal features of things (although I am not very exclusive as to what kind of things I include under "formal"). I suggest that we examine the opposition between object and subject. My question is, Why should human beings take pleasure in the mere contemplation of the formal characteristics of the objects of their experience? Darwin would probably tell us that it is because being able to attend to the forms of things presents an advantage in this world. That a form of pleasure accompanies that attention is then an incentive to proper attention. The ability to enjoy contemplating the formal features of objects could just be built in us, as a fruitful motivation to pay attention to things, and thus acquire more understanding of them, through an improved perception. There is a cognitive aspect, but the idea is that the subject also becomes able to define itself in opposition to the rest of the world, able to assess and value the gap between the ego and things. I do think that whatever pleasure the human experiences has to do with a 'selfish' of improvement. My point, then, is that the pleasure taken (the aesthetic) corresponds to the satisfaction of the subject constructing and developing itself in contrast to the 'objective' realm of things. That is why I don't really see how I can use the term "disinterestedness." My aesthetic pleasure is always mine. Just the fact that I seek that pleasure makes it interested in some sense. Moreover, I see the aesthetic pleasure as always relative to the subject that experiences it. The idea I submit to your judgment is that, since the aesthetic pleasure resides in that evaluation of the object by a subject, then it cannot but be relative to the worldview of that subject. I adopt a very holistic perspective, and am not afraid of including within the "formal aspect" of the world anything that has to do with relations: colors, shapes, etc., but also social and moral values; in short anything that has to do with the world-as-perceived. Am I making sense? I'll be very pleased if you indicate to me where I can read about this question of the relation between the formal aspect of things and the pleasure we derive from it. Romain Gril __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 17 16:25:26 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA28755 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA06302 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:25:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id NAA14259 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id NAA14252 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:53:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id NAA19630 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 13:53:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 17 Mar 97 12:53:20 -0600 Received: from x94-245-180.ejack.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 17 Mar 97 12:53:19 -0600 From: "Romain Gril" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: One word on disinterestedness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.5 Message-Id: <332d9320297d961@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 12:53:21 -0600 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Romain Gril" Status: O X-Status: Bonjour, I am only a humble student in philosophy. I apologize to those who will object to the possible simplicity of my remark. I also apologize for its length. James Harbeck wrote: "At any rate, the erotic expectation is of course absent from aesthetic appreciation of art objects; from them, rather, we expect and receive consequence-free experience of emotion, which is a kind of learning and thus a natural inclination of the human brain." I must say I am not big on the "disinterestedness" issue. First, it seems to me that we are having a problem defining the term, and that we end up talking about different things altogether. That aesthetic experience involves learning is a theory that has had supporters since Aristotle; however, I think it is a little straightforward to put it this way. In any case, talking about emotions or about a cognitive experience seems to challenge "disinterestedness." Now, what, I believe, is meant by whatever terms we choose to use is that the aesthetic basically occurs in contemplation. This makes it a form of pleasure that has to do with the objective features of the object under examination. However, as Kant showed it in a nicer way than I could, if there is pleasure, then it is because the subject experiences a satisfaction, a gratification of some sort. Pleasure is by definition very subjective. My idea is that we will always have a problem defining the modes and requirements of the aesthetic until we manage to explain why something in an object can give me a form that particular form of pleasure that has to do with contemplation. I like to think that the aesthetic deals with the formal features of things (although I am not very exclusive as to what kind of things I include under "formal"). I suggest that we examine the opposition between object and subject. My question is, Why should human beings take pleasure in the mere contemplation of the formal characteristics of the objects of their experience? Darwin would probably tell us that it is because being able to attend to the forms of things presents an advantage in this world. That a form of pleasure accompanies that attention is then an incentive to proper attention. The ability to enjoy contemplating the formal features of objects could just be built in us, as a fruitful motivation to pay attention to things, and thus acquire more understanding of them, through an improved perception. There is a cognitive aspect, but the idea is that the subject also becomes able to define itself in opposition to the rest of the world, able to assess and value the gap between the ego and things. I may find something beautiful because there is a sense in which that thing 'makes sense' of or within the world as I know it. I do think that whatever pleasure the human experiences has to do with a 'selfish' form of personal progress or development. My point, then, is that the pleasure taken (the aesthetic) corresponds to the satisfaction of the subject constructing and developing itself in contrast to the 'objective' realm of things. That is why I don't really see how I can use the term "disinterestedness." My aesthetic pleasure is always mine. Just the fact that I seek that pleasure makes it interested in some sense. Moreover, I see the aesthetic pleasure as always relative to the subject that experiences it. The idea I submit to your judgment is that, since the aesthetic pleasure resides in that evaluation of the object by a subject, then it cannot but be relative to the worldview of that subject. I adopt a very holistic perspective, and am not afraid of including within the "formal aspect" of the world anything that has to do with relations: colors, shapes, etc., but also social and moral values; in short anything that has to do with the world-as-perceived, anythings that, when contemplated, appears to 'make sense'. Do we not sometimes speak of "a beautiful story," "a beautiful idea," or even "a beautiful equation"? Am I making sense? I'll be very pleased if you indicate to me where I can read about this question of the relation between the formal aspect of things and the pleasure we derive from it. Romain Gril __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 17 16:49:48 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA29140 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:49:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA21169 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:49:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA15023 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA15012 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id OAA06842 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 14:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Mon, 17 Mar 97 11:24 PST Message-id: <2805299@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 17 Mar 97 11:23:47 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Aesthetics: Re: Response to 'Disinterestedness' To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca, William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O X-Status: linda and i disagree on whether aesthetic perception should be defined as based in interest in the object of perception for its own sake, = as a whole, including potentialities (etc). I asked whther just liking the looks of something wasn't enough for aesthetic perception, and added that what linda is describing might be called "moral perception". Linda thinks i'm being an empiricist western dualist, vs the holism of the east. Retort: the reason i thought of "moral perception" was that generally the sort of things we're supposed especially to take an interest in for their own sakes is other people, = seeing them as ends and not means; and specifically i was thinking of iris murdoch, who did a lot of her work on the borderline between ethics and aesthetics. but then there's the point that esthetically perceptive people need not be especially good morally. and /but isn't just liking the looks of something, for its own sake = lookwise, esthetic perception? bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 17 18:55:38 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA30264 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:55:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA08708 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:55:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA17609 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:19:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA17602 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA28930 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 16:19:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from serialA15.innotts.co.uk (serialA15.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.22]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA01629; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:18:50 GMT Date: Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:18:50 GMT Message-Id: <199703172118.VAA01629@carlton.innotts.co.uk> X-Sender: woodfra@mailhost.innotts.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Woodfield Subject: Aesthetics: larrissy/heppner Cc: C HEPPNER Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Woodfield Status: O X-Status: In the British Journal of Aesthetics, vol 36(3), July 1996 Edward Larrissy wrote a review of Christopher Heppner's book 'Reading Blake's Design'. Christopher Heppner wanted the opportunity to respond to the review. The journal declined to publish a response, suggesting instead that I (RW) could do something through the BSA Newsletter. It occurred to me that as many readers of Aesthetics Online are readers of the BJA (and the JAAC), it would be a good idea to publish the res[ponse electronically as well as (later in the year) in hard copy. Here it is: Reading and Misreading Blake In a review of my book (Christopher Heppner, Reading Blake's Designs, Cambridge University Press, 1995) in the British Journal of Aesthetics for= July 1996, Edward Larrissy commended four chapters out of the nine, for which I thank him; if this were baseball I would be hitting over 0.400, and could go home very happy. But baseball is not my game, and some of the things Larrissy said about other chapters made me decidedly unhappy. I have both complaints of unfair treatment (the usual whine of those criticised in a= review, I know) and strong disagreements to register. The most serious of my complaints is that Larrissy at several points misrepresents what I wrote, at one point fabricating a quotation which he foists upon me and proceeds to attack. Larrissy writes as follows: "When Professor Heppner asks us to believe that there are `no elements taken from Blake's poetic mythology' in his illustrations of the Bible, this is really= a tendentious way (as his book shows) of asking us to accept that the mythology is irrelevant to interpretation." I did not write the words here attributed to me, and they do not represent my view. Larrissy associates= this alleged opinion with the view, also attributed to me, though not this time= in a quotation, that "equivocal details in a painting should count for more than what we know of Blake's thoughts from `literary' sources." Larrissy, by contrast, implies that since we know very well what Blake thought from his writings (do we?), we have no need to look at his pictures closely--we= already know what they mean. Blake's texts offer sure guidance through the "ambiguity of Blake's [visual] imagery." One can safely overwrite those troublesome "equivocal details" with the clear features of Blake's myth, and produce an interpreted picture. Voil=85. Q.E.D. I shall outline a little further just what I do think and did write in order to disentangle my views from Larrissy's version of them, and to= explore the implications of what one can gather of his view. I begin with a= quotation from Larrissy himself on another occasion that raises the issue of the availability and usefulness of Blake's mythology for the purpose of= explicating his designs: there never is any final version of the myth of the Fall which informs [Blake's] major works. At one moment Urizen is to blame, at another Vala, at another Orc / Luvah. Nevertheless the myth is trying to seem archetypal: it gestures towards a universal applicability and an `original' structure which is everywhere shown to be impossible. There's just enough structure, or unity, in Blake's mythologies for someone to write A Blake Dictionary; but the alternations in meaning of key terms in different context, the digressions and inconsequentiality, put readers into a position where they are endlessly trying to read in terms of a definite structure and are endlessly involved in a process of deferred sense-making. (Edward Larrissy, William Blake, Oxford, 1985 [1975], p.145) Lrrissy's account is sound enough; but is this a structure that should usurp a close look at the designs themselves? To interpret the "equivocal" by mans of the "endlessly" shifting sounds like the counsel of despair, and I= for one would rather work with those details, while admitting, as I do on= several occasions, that there will sometimes remain a penumbra of undecidability around the ensuing interpretations. One might ask parenthetically why the author of the words just quoted chooses to taunt me for using the "fashionable" word "undecidability," but I shall keep for later the issue of= the tone and of the review. Larrissy complains that I reject help from "Blake's own words." That= is not the case; I look closely at many of his words--Larrissy seems to forget that Blake wrote multitudes of words that are not encoded into his myth. = The corollary of this accusation is that I then seek help from Le Bossu's widely disseminated theory of epic invention; not a good exchange, it is implied. Larrissy accepts that Le Bossu is "certainly a suggestive text for the whole= of Blake's oeuvre," but asserts that I slip from Le Bossu's affirmation of the "artist's freedom to invent around and over the text" (cited from my p.104)= to "the claim that Blake is working sympathetically with many of the texts we had been crude enough to imagine he was subverting." I see no "slippage" between the relationship implicit in "inventing around and over," and sympathy; does sympathy flow only between identical entities? "Opposition= is true friendship" would give us a radical model of such a relationship, but there is no need to stretch that far. My working model for the relationship between Blake and his source texts is best described in my quoting of his own line about the Gray illustrations, "Around the Springs of Gray my wild root weaves" (my p. 147);= I was alluding to this phrase in describing Le Bossu's permission to the= writer "to invent around and over the text." I do claim that Blake is sympathetic= to many of the texts he illustrates, and I do find something crude in some of= the attempts made to show that he is continually in radical disagreement with them. The following is the closest I can come to a one sentence summary of my view on this issue: "the visionary artist maps out a structure of his own upon an existing poetic or narrative structure, inventing a design that uses the existing text as the embodying vehicle for a new vision which will have some relationship to the existing text, but one that will have to be= determined in each case" (my p. 89); not perfect, but it will do for the moment. Those words imply that there is a relationship between Blake's mythology and the finished design, but also that it is mediated rather than direct, and that= we have to work through and understand that process of mediation--which is exactly what Blake refers to by the term "invention." Larrissy takes up my chapter on Blake's illustrations to Young's Night Thoughts for relatively extended comment, laying three charges against me. First charge: I have ignored "the influence of Locke on Young." Guilty; my topic was Blake's illustrations, not the sources of Young's epistemology. I= go through the work of three influential critics who take something like Larrissy's line in arguing that Blake is "subverting" his poet, and show in some detail that all three sometimes--not necessarily always--make errors in assuming radical disagreement where there is in fact little or none to be found upon closer examination. Larrissy's views would be more persuasive if he had shown that some of my rereadings were inadmissible; it is quite possible that I too have made mistakes, or overlooked some detail in a= design that argues against a reading. However, even one of the critics who thinks more or less as Larrissy thinks concludes a little lamely that "at least eighteen [out of 537!] of the Night Thoughts illustrations depart= significantly from the ideas and attitudes of their text"; that represents a mere 3.35%, a percentage which I reduce further by showing that in one such alleged case the critic has simply ignored Young's text in making his interpretation (my pp. 153-54). An illustrator who departs from the ethos of his text in= around 3% or less of his illustrations is not in radical disagreement with it,= though local differences remain possible; my chapter ends with a rereading of one illustration in which I argue that Blake does not "cancel" Young's= inadequate morality so much as "surpass" it, producing "variation and extension" rather than "opposition or inversion" (my p. 170). Larrissy wants to live in a= simple black and white world: approval or subversion. I prefer to explore the possibility of nuance, subtle critique, difference, variation. In the= absence=20 of any serious counter-argument from Larrissy I stand by the chapter as written. The second charge is that I have ignored "the iconography of the illustrations in its connections both with Blake's other designs and with= the classical iconographical traditions which can be shown to have influenced= him." Not guilty, I think, though the statement is so broad that I frankly do not know what is pointed at. It was not my intent in the chapter to give a complete reading of all the designs--that would take several volumes. My= aim was much more limited: I wanted to show that the assumption that Blake continually subverts Young is not well founded. In Larrissy, in the absence of worked out readings of these illustrations, the opinion seems prejudice= in the strict sense, a "crude" imagining. Whatever exactly "classical iconographical traditions" means, an unbiased perusal of my notes will not I hope support an accusation of mere ignorance. I do show the dubious interpretations that can result from the assumption that the tracing of a figure to some "classical iconographical tradition" can, of itself, decide= the meaning of a portion of a design (e.g. my handling of some figures taken partly from Michelangelo, pp. 28-38). The third charge is that I ignore "the status of the Night Thoughts illustrations as running parallel with the symbolism of Vala." Guilty= again; many would agree that immersion in Young's poem had an influence on the growth of Vala, though one might naively suppose that argued for Blake's sympathy with Young's poem. To approach the Night Thoughts illustrations from the hypothesis that they can be explained by the poem to which they may have indirectly contributed is to work in reverse, and at a hopeless distance from the actual designs. The charges taken together amount to no more than an expression of indignation that I have dared to question a commonly held assumption. There is not one word of comment on the rereadings with which I support my view, not one morsel of detailed contrary evidence; I am left feeling uneasily= that Larrissy wishes above all to avoid looking at and thinking about the designs themselves. In discussing my chapter on the colour prints, the same unwillingness to confront my real arguments persists, aided again by misrepresentation. Larrissy talks about only one of the prints, quoting Mellor's view of The= Good and Evil Angels because I "allude" to it, and then adding "Heppner does not care for this kind of interpretation," implying (he notes the absence of the French Revolution from my index) that I do not "care for" politically= motivated readings. I do more than "allude" to Mellor's reading; I give a brief= account of it (the reading is itself brief), and comment that "Though counter to the title, this provides an intelligible interpretation of the print" (my p.= 138). The qualification is prompted by the fact that Mellor's interpretation makes both angels into oppressive and distorted energies--the dark and blind one represents "creative Energy [that] has been devoured by reason and perverted into an instrument of oppression" (Mellor)--in spite of the fact= that Blake's own title calls him the "Good" angel, an explicit contrary to the= "Evil" angel. Nevertheless I accept Mellor's interpretation as helpful, implicitly indeed as the best we have, and continue it as follows: "One could extend= this interpretation to include a social or political perspective, and read the= Evil Angel as an image of chained, blinded, and potentially revolutionary labor (Energy), angry and destructive in its thwarted desires, and the Good Angel as the bourgeois (Reason) who has captured the `goods' (the child) of= society, and now lives in the sunlight of prosperity and social approval." Would any reader of Larrissy's review who had not read the book suspect that I had written such words? It is true that I remain disturbed by the problematical relationship set up between such an interpretation and Blake's (it is= Blake's) title; this time my fault appears to be that I pay too much attention to= Blake's own words and to the myth of contraries which they seem to reflect. Some people are hard to please. Larrissy writes not a single word about my reading of the colour print still known as Hecate. The omission is striking, since this is one of the= two most extended--and original, for better or for worse--readings offered in= the book as defence and articulation of my approach. In the course of that reading I look at some of the damage done in the past by critics who agree with Larrissy that what we need in order to read Blake's designs is an application of his mythology; for a whole century this print was explained= as showing the triple goddess Hecate understood as an image of Blake's myth of the Female Will--vivid testimony to the blindness that can follow upon a= belief in the interpretive power of Blake's myth when applied to his art. Larrissy does not mention this design, nor does he give the reader a single word of response to the continuous argument that runs through the chapter, which questions the tradition that insists on imposing a single mythical pattern= upon all twelve of the extant prints, or its modern variant that sees them= organised in pairs. In fact, much of the book is simply not addressed at all in this= review. While discussing the colour prints, for example, Larrissy states that my handling of The Sea of Time and Space demonstrates a "pedantry which cannot see the wood for the trees"; that is his only comment on one of the two longest chapters in the book, and as he notes the concluding one. The chapter is certainly original, again for better or for worse. I find his comment quite extraordinary in its implications; which wood, one must ask,= and can one describe any wood without clearly seeing the trees? Blake insists= on "Minute Particulars" as the keys to comprehension, and I identify a good= many such particulars. If Larrissy has a "pure anticipated cognition" of what= that complex painting is about, he must let us have it, and teach us how to interpret a design without understanding its detailed imagery. As things stand, I remain stubbornly persuaded that I have demonstrated the radical flaws of previous interpretations of The Sea of Time and Space, many of which, as in the case of Hecate, have been motivated by an insistence much like Larrissy's that the application of Blake's myth will identify the= figures and produce understanding. I also remain persuaded that I have given a solid reading of much of the design, while admitting--in the book as here-- that some portions remain less than wholly clear. I hope that future= criticism will fill in and solidify those portions, but it will not do so by following Larrissy's impressionist recipe. Which brings me back to the Bible where Larrissy's review began. He writes that "there is a sense in which Blake's mythology is hardly his own, being more like a series of quotations from Shakespeare, Dante, the Bible= and primary mythologies." Quite so; but Larrissy seems not to notice that this largely dissolves the barriers between that mythology and the world of myth and literature in general; I agree with this comment on Blake's myth, and make use of that whole world as it seems relevant to interpretation. Larrissy's fabricated quotation alleges that I state categorically that= there are "no elements taken from Blake's poetic mythology in his illustrations of= the Bible"; apart from the fact that I did not write those words, how on= Larrissy's own account could one identify in a design precisely what comes from Blake's mythology and what from "the Bible and primary mythologies"? My chapter on Blake's bible illustrations is divided into three sections--I make no= attempt to talk about them all, for that, like an account of the illustrations to= Young, would demand at least a book to itself. Larrissy has no comment on the= first and third sections; I shall confront his alleged quotation, which I take to= be a response to the second section. This looks at a group of paintings that have been described as showing Blake's image of the Seven Eyes of God, and here I quote Lindberg as having written of Blake's Illustrations to The Book of Job that "there is nothing= in the plates that requires the seven eyes of God for an explanation" (my p. 186). That would appear to be the ground upon which Larrissy has invented his own "quotation"; it is a very differently aimed and much more limited statement, and of course is not mine, though I use it to support my own argument. I point out that even within the small sphere of the Job engravings the Seven Eyes of God have been identified in "two different visual structures" (my p. 187). The problem here is that the practitioners= of Larrissy-style interpretation via simple identifications of figures with=20 elements from Blake's myth usually feel that interpretation can stop as soon as those identifications are made; as a result, differences are washed over, and the pictorial dynamics and composition left unaccounted for. I go on to show that in some other designs in which the presence of Blake's Seven Eyes has been asserted, there are not in fact seven figures at all but six or nine or even more; in other words, the attempt to "explain" Blake's Bible paintings by immediate recourse to his own mythology (developed in this case as in so many from the Bible itself, as Larrissy acknowledges) has again resulted in= an inability to perceive what is there, let alone satisfactorily explain it. = This is a recurring theme in the book; in the same section I give examples of= figures who have been successively "identified with most of the major groups of male figures available in Blake's poetry" (my p. 190); Larrissy's recommended technique might arouse more confidence if the results showed more consistency. If the same figures can be identified, in sequence, as the= Four Zoas, as the Strong, the Ugly, and the Beautiful, and finally as the Seven Eyes of God, perhaps it is time to look again at those awkward, difficult= but potentially invaluable "equivocal details." The same situation is true of Hecate, where Enitharmon has been identified as both the central figure and as the young girl on our left, her victim (my p. 125). And again of The Sea of Time and Space, in which figures have been identified with names from Blake's mythology in an extraordinary variety of ways, only some of which= are detailed in my text and notes. To deny that a particular fragment of Blake's myth is present in a= small group of designs is very different indeed from a blanket assertion that= there are "no elements taken from Blake's poetic mythology" in any of his illustrations to the Bible, and in fact my chapter on those illustrations repeatedly explores the links between Blake's designs, his own words and the received text of the Bible. Larrissy complains that I am "chary" of seeking "guidance" from Blake's own texts, but has no comment on my treatment of Blake's account of The Ancient Britons, for instance, in which I take= Blake's words seriously, and fully recognise that his mythology sometimes plays a major role in the invention of a design, though such recognition in no way solves all interpretive problems (my pp. 82-86). The deepest issue between us lies in our understanding of what it means to "interpret" a design by Blake. Larrissy seems to believe that one grabs an available piece of Blake's myth, and voil=85, the design is= interpreted. Forget those awkward "equivocal details," those "trees" that blot out the "wood." I believe that interpretation must account for all the significant detail visible in a design; even if some of those details are ambiguous,= they are often not beyond the reach of intelligent or even imaginative= conjecture, and a good guess or perception in one area may open the way to greater certainty in another; eventually one may have an interpretation that fits= all the visible information and with luck also makes intelligible and Blakean sense--even if it does not appear to illustrate his mythology directly. Larrissy is flippant about my reference to the hermeneutical circle, but it describes accurately enough the path I had to follow in the attempt to make sense of, for instance, The Sea of Time and Space. I found Le Bossu's model an aid to thinking, a rough scheme that allowed me to attempt to respect the "Minute Particulars" of a design while also constructing a model of the= intent that organises these particulars into an intelligible whole. But that= intent=20 can only be reached by working through the mediating stages. If I am right= in identifying the central figure in Hecate as Medea, an understanding of her situation must control any understanding of the intentionality depicted in= the print. Perhaps we can interpret Medea as demonstrating in her actions what Blake means by the Female Will, or something like that; indeed, my comment that "Jealousy, vengeance, and parental oppression kill the future loves and graces of humanity" (p.130) goes some way towards making such a connection. But such commentary must be rooted in an understanding of what a design shows. The attempt to make a connection to Blake's myth should probably be the last stage of an interpretation, not the first; if the sequence is= reversed, there is a danger that the myth becomes merely a kind of universal translation machine--feed in anything, and it will come out as a portion of= the myth. It is not difficult to apply it in this way, but is the result a= useful=20 or valuable product? Interpretation must respect what is shown, and must consider the question of what constitutes a visual sign. The frown lines on the brow of the central figure in Hecate are an instance of a detail that is clearly significant; they are indisputably present, and an interpretation of the= print must include a credible account of their meaning, reached by applying the codes that Blake would have been following--Le Brun and his revisers and elaborators, including Benjamin Ralph with his The School of Raphael. Those frown lines, recognised as a sign and decoded, have to be read into a narrative situation in which they become intelligible. There is a related issue. There are shapes like scales represented on the bucket carried by the young girl at the right of the same picture; what= is the significance of that detail--should we read them, as previous critics= did, as meaning "scaly, as in armour or a serpent's skin," which in turn means,= in "Blakean" language, evil or Satanic? Or should we read them as naturalistic representations of the palm tree bark from which the bucket is made? Does the symbolic function in Blake's designs totally usurp the representational nature of their imagery? These are some of the kinds of question that we must learn to ask, and I would like to think that I have made some progress on the road towards asking some of them; in a few cases, I think I have offered reasonably good answers. We should also bear in mind the possibility that Blake is thinking new thoughts in his designs, or subjecting to a revisionist critique views expressed elsewhere in writing; a design is not necessarily a repetition in another medium of something already fully articulated in language. Not all= of Blake's poems can easily be reduced to his mythology--the narratives of the Pickering MS are cases in point--and we should expect at least the same degree of independence from his designs. In A Vision of The Last Judgment, Blake annotates a good many figures who appear nowhere else in his work, such as Eliakim and Araunah; Blake is inventing as he designs, not simply quoting from himself. If one wishes to think of these figures as becoming part of his myth, then that myth--or, as Larrissy writes "mythologies"--is= not only the continually shifting structure Larrissy describes, but is also radically open to new invention, visual as well as verbal. We are lucky in the case of A Vision of The Last Judgment to have Blake's own commentary as guide; with The Sea of Time and Space we are on our own. I am tempted to write of the "myth" of Blake's myth, and suggest that it is the "myth" that showily= offers itself for use as an interpretive tool, and not the ever changing and expanding mythology itself; when the "myth" is thus used, the result is all= too often simplification and distortion rather than illumination. Larrissy= seems to understand the nature of Blake's myth while he writes about the poetry, but to forget what he knows when he comes to thinking about the visual art. There are other issues that criticism might take on board in thinking about Blake's pictures. The full implications of Baxandall's fine chapter= on Piero della Francesca in Patterns of Intention await further incorporation= (I do not necessarily agree with his conclusion, but he has found a wonderful way to pose some fundamental questions), as do the implications of James Elkins' insistence in Critical Inquiry and elsewhere upon the irreducibly pictorial nature of pictures; one might for instance say considerably more about the colour tone of Pity and Hecate, and attempt more fully to integrate= attention to Blake's characteristic ways of handling colour and forms with a reading= of his more explicit sign systems. Norman Bryson's distinction between= discourse and figure is another articulation that retains the power to stimulate= thought, though at one point I raise some questions about its original formulation. = My book says a few things about the ways in which Blake's pictures behave like texts; it might have said more about the ways in which they do not. Another day, another book . . . . But not a return to what Larrissy proposes. Readers will, I hope, judge the book for themselves (Cambridge tell me it will be out in paperback this autumn), and not rely on Larrissy's= account. The book is deliberately polemical in confronting the views that Larrissy seems to espouse. There are places where commentary could doubtless establish further connections to Blake's mythology, but my focus was on the need to understand the mediating narratives in which Blake embodied his inventions, though in Chapter 4, the root and beginning of the troubles Larrissy has had, I did make a very conscious effort to include a= recognition of such connections. And doubtless some readings work better than others; I can point to a few myself that I could wish more sparkling or better= focused. Other critics will no doubt challenge my overall thesis, or this or that= point, and will offer different and perhaps better readings of designs which I interpret. They will, I hope, give me food for thought. Larrissy's review, with its airily insulting language ("fuss," "prevarication," "fumbling," "tendentious," "paltry example") that is however quite unsupported by any detailed argument leaves me feeling as if I had been beaten over the head with a soft foam bat; I am unbruised, but a little surprised. At moments he sounds almost as if he sees a conspiracy: "This is not the only book on Blake's art to evince a narrowness that still pervades art criticism . . .= ." I fear that the narrowness belongs to those who insist, against a great deal= of evidence, that Blake spent his whole life as artist illustrating his own mythology. Blake had a mythographical imagination before (ontologically and chronologically) he had a specific mythology, itself as Larrissy recognises elsewhere a moving target. While awaiting better--not necessarily more complimentary--reviews, there are a few problems and errors that I have discovered for myself. A= few concern the illustrations. In a draft of an essay I once confidently wrote= "as the photo makes clear," only to be reminded by an editor with long= experience that photos have a habit of not making clear. How right he was I have now discovered for myself. The new detail photos I commissioned for The Sea of Time and Space are generally of high quality, but they disappoint in a few specifics. The Hebrew lettering around the hem of Isaiah's garment is reasonably clear, though naturally not nearly as clear as in the painting itself. But for some reason hidden in the response of the film used to= shades of red, the distinction between the orange red of his mantle and the darker scarlet of his robe does not register as strongly as I had hoped, and= neither do the fine cross-hatchings on the bucket of the foremost water-carrier in= the upper cave. Both details are just visible for one who has faith, but I can assure readers that the painting is as I have described it, and invite them= to go to Arlington Court to see for themselves, while wishing that the painting could be sold by the National Trust to the Tate Gallery, where it would be much more accessible. I have some apologies to make. First I offer sincere apologies to= John E. Grant for my comment that he should have "spent more time and thought . . . on the relationship between the text of the story being illustrated and Blake's design, and on the details of that design in relation to the= traditions of pictorial meaning as Blake knew and understood them" (p. 170). That is not only stupidly ungracious, it is demonstrably wrong; noone has brought more knowledge of the "traditions of pictorial meaning" to bear upon Blake than Grant, and while I reserve the right to continue to disagree with him= on some matters, I hereby pay tribute to his long contribution to the study of Blake's designs, and to the knowledge and intelligence he brings to that= work. Some sore distraction must have prompted those words of mine. There is also a misleading sentence on p. 204 about Paul and the evangelists that sounds= as if I believed that Paul was writing after the gospels had been written. I knew better, but forgot or became confused. I have so far caught two small errors; the reference on p. 240 to Isaiah's "own phrase (12: 1)" should read (21: 1). And n. 46 on p. 293 demonstrates once more that the ease of= revision offered by a computer brings with it risk: I apologise to Janet Warner for appearing to attribute to her the words "I think she is . . ." which come= from Spence, Polymetis, 219. I acknowledge that my book is far from perfect; to help me with my ongoing work, I hope that Larrissy will let me know exactly what is wrong with my reading of Hecate, and show me who is doing what to whom, and why; and that he will describe the wood that he sees above, through, or beyond those individual trees that blinded me in looking at The Sea of Time and Space. I and those unnamed others can use all the help we can get in our attempts to understand Blake's work. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 17 18:56:47 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA30274 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:56:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA11211 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 18:56:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA19739 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:35:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA19732 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:35:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from exploratorium.edu (isaac.exploratorium.edu [192.174.2.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id RAA03881 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from [192.174.2.106] (Hahn.exploratorium.edu) by exploratorium.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1/sro) id AA19180; Mon, 17 Mar 97 14:35:20 PST Date: Mon, 17 Mar 97 14:35:17 PST X-Sender: melissaa@isaac Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: From: melissaa@exploratorium.edu (Melissa Alexander) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: recourse Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: melissaa@exploratorium.edu (Melissa Alexander) Status: O X-Status: >Check out the article from Complexity Magazine entitled Turbulent >Landscapes: Artistry in the Perception of Nature-=A91996 John Wiley and Son= s >Vol, 2 no.2 ccc 1076-2787/96/02003-07. The article is a conversation >between Mathematician Jim Crutchfield and artist Ned Kahn about a series >of artworks that address complex adaptive systems. I believe the article >can be retrieved from Crutchfield's website as well through the Santa Fe >Institutes website. The article is primarly about Ned's work. Should you >be interested in other artworks that addressed complex systems check out >http:www.exploratorium.edu/complexity > Melissa Alexander Project Manager Arts Programs Exploratorium 3601 Lyon Street San Francisco, CA 94123 415/561-0324 415/563-9153 fax melissa@exploratorium.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 17 17:15:52 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA17040 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA31261 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 17:15:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA16142 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:20:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA16135 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:20:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from wamba.cpd.uva.es (wamba.cpd.uva.es [157.88.18.31]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id PAA29929 for ; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 15:20:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703172020.PAA29929@roatan.ucs.indiana.edu> Received: from ppp147.telebase.es by wamba.cpd.uva.es with SMTP (1.38.193.5/16.2) id AA02995; Mon, 17 Mar 1997 21:19:25 +0100 From: "arrechea" To: "estetica" Subject: Aesthetics: complexity Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 04:06:43 +0100 X-Msmail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "arrechea" Status: O X-Status: the language "ambiguous" and the complexity of artistic objet is magnifically analyzed in varied texts about hemeneutic and reception theory. I think en Ingarden, Iser, Jauss, Warning . *Rezephonsasthetik, Theorie und Praxis*, About hermeneutic and aesthetic experience Jauss *Asthetische Erfahrung und literatische Hermeneutik* Suerte Julio Arrechea Escuela Superior de Arquitectura Valladolid (Spain) __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 18 23:13:19 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA14179 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 23:13:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA03678 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 23:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA09639 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:52:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA09629 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:52:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout09.mail.aol.com (emout09.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.24]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA12327 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:52:02 -0500 (EST) From: LBusbea@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout09.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA15134 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:50:45 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:50:45 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970318214706_-1170162466@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: LBusbea@aol.com Status: O X-Status: I just wanted to point out that much of what Romain articulated on this topic is extremely important. Much of it, of course, is prefigured in Derrida's reading of Kantian aesthetics ("Parergon"). Here, Derrida shows the fundamental impossibility of pure disinterestedness as Kant formulates it. As Romaine points out, disinterestedness and pleasure are anti-thetical yet simultaneously necassary to one another. I think that as a category in the development of aesthetics and epistemology, disinterestedness is fascinating (in the same way as "pure" reason). However, any contemporary re-formulation will have to deal, not only with this long, and complex tradition, but also its recent deconstruction. As for using this disinterest as a vehicle to "appreciate things for their own sake," I would have to defer to Hallmark Co.. Sincerely, Lawrence B. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 18 23:14:27 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA14223 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 23:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA29054 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 23:14:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA09710 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:54:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA09662 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:53:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout28.mail.aol.com (emout28.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.133]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA27308 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:53:38 -0500 (EST) From: LBusbea@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout28.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA11435 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:52:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 Mar 1997 21:52:21 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970318214706_-1170162466@emout09.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: LBusbea@aol.com Status: O X-Status: I just wanted to point out that much of what Romain articulated on this topic is extremely important. Much of it, of course, is prefigured in Derrida's reading of Kantian aesthetics ("Parergon"). Here, Derrida shows the fundamental impossibility of pure disinterestedness as Kant formulates it. As Romaine points out, disinterestedness and pleasure are anti-thetical yet simultaneously necassary to one another. I think that as a category in the development of aesthetics and epistemology, disinterestedness is fascinating (in the same way as "pure" reason). However, any contemporary re-formulation will have to deal, not only with this long, and complex tradition, but also its recent deconstruction. As for using this disinterest as a vehicle to "appreciate things for their own sake," I would have to defer to Hallmark Co.. Sincerely, Lawrence B. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 16:11:10 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA12079 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA11290 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA02131 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:15:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA02106 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:15:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from eniac.rhon.itam.mx (eniac.rhon.itam.mx [148.205.2.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA21801 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:15:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (jcmansur@localhost) by eniac.rhon.itam.mx (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA15253; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:16:53 -0600 (CST) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 13:16:53 -0600 (CST) From: Juan Carlos Mansur Garda To: LBusbea@aol.com cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: <970318214706_-1170162466@emout09.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Juan Carlos Mansur Garda Status: O X-Status: > I just wanted to point out that much of what Romain articulated on this topic > is extremely important. Much of it, of course, is prefigured in Derrida's > reading of Kantian aesthetics ("Parergon"). Here, Derrida shows the > fundamental impossibility of pure disinterestedness as Kant formulates it. > As Romaine points out, disinterestedness and pleasure are anti-thetical yet > simultaneously necassary to one another. I havent read Derridas work about Kant, but I think that the point of desinterestedness in Kant does not mean that you do not have to feel any pleasure, A pure desinterestedness noes not exist, every human act has an interes, the aesthetic interes is a special one becouse, as Kant remarks, you do not care about the existence of the object or if it is good for yourself, etc. You enter in a new dimension or in a diferent interes, that is the aesthetic interes wich consist in a desinterestedness to judge with your categories of truth or good. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 18:05:50 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA13438 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA03377 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:05:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA17653 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:55:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA17646 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:55:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA20187 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:55:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante14.u.washington.edu (dante14.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.40]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id MAA12354; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:50:12 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante14.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id MAA28238; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:55:21 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 12:55:20 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Juan Carlos Mansur Garda cc: LBusbea@aol.com, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: To rudely jump in: > I havent read Derridas work about Kant, but I think that the point > of desinterestedness in Kant does not mean that you do not have to feel > any pleasure, A pure desinterestedness noes not exist, every human act has > an interes, the aesthetic interes is a special one becouse, as Kant > remarks, you do not care about the existence of the object or if it is > good for yourself, etc. You enter in a new dimension or in a diferent > interes, that is the aesthetic interes wich consist in a desinterestedness > to judge with your categories of truth or good. > Reading Kant, one gets the sense that a pure disinterestedness *does* exist, and it lies in the "supersensible" faculty which is defined as a sense substrate beyond the so-called muddle of the physical and material senses. Kant would claim we can rise above this world into the sublime to a point of disinterestedness which would seem to be a point devoid of physical or emotional involvement: interest still exists at the intellectual or cognitive level, yes, but a physical or emotional disinterestedness is what Kant it after. He's reminescent of St. Augustine and even Plotinus in this regard. Jody Tate U. of Washington, Seattle __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 18:47:25 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA13959 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:47:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA25848 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:47:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA19443 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA19436 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from Post-Office.UH.EDU (Post-Office.UH.EDU [129.7.1.20]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA19024 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:04:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.7.19.221] (Mac-5085.AH-Building.UH.EDU) by Post-Office.UH.EDU (PMDF V5.1-8 #18580) with SMTP id <01IGQBAJF7PI0001ER@Post-Office.UH.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:38:39 CST Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 15:47:35 -0600 From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Status: O X-Status: I'm not a Kant scholar, but think that I want to disagree: >Reading Kant, one gets the sense that a pure disinterestedness *does* >exist, and it lies in the "supersensible" faculty which is >defined as a sense substrate beyond the so-called muddle of the physical >and material senses. Kant would claim we can rise above this world into >the sublime to a point of disinterestedness which would seem to be a point >devoid of physical or emotional involvement: interest still exists at the >intellectual or cognitive level, yes, but a physical or emotional >disinterestedness is what Kant it after. He's reminescent of St. Augustine >and even Plotinus in this regard. > >Jody Tate >U. of Washington, Seattle The key thing that the supersensible arouses in the experience of the sublime is RESPECT which I believe really is a kind of emotion. It is what MOTIVATES us to be moral, and we do have feelings of our inability to live up to the moral law, awe at its grandeur, etc. His account of the sublime involves rather complex reference to emotions, since he says it involves both pleasure and pain. The pain is easy to account for, that comes from the fear or terror, but the pleasure is harder to pinpoint, since that is associated with this admittedly cognitive and strange, allegedly pure feeling or emotion of respect for the moral law. What I want to emphasize is that the very fact that Kant says it is PLEASURE is worth noting. (Derrida spends some time poking fun at the emotion of respect, as I recall.) I find Kant is also coming very close to talking about how this allegedly pure, mostly cognitive, experience involves feelings at the end of the 2nd Critique, when he mentions our reactions to the "starry heavens above and the moral law within." Cynthia Freeland Associate Professor of Philosophy and Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research College of Humanities, Fine Arts, and Communication The University of Houston Houston, TX 77204-3784 (713) 743-2993 CFreeland@UH.edu http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 19:09:54 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA13857 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:09:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA18925 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:09:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA20395 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA20388 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:40:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA09237 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:40:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from hub.ubc.ca.hub.ubc.ca (port24.annex8.net.ubc.ca [137.82.220.24]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA18548 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:40:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970320224022.00667e2c@pop.unixg.ubc.ca> X-Sender: rseamon@pop.unixg.ubc.ca X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:40:22 -0800 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Roger Seamon Subject: Aesthetics: disinteredness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: Is there any difference bewtween disinteredness in a judge, a scientist, and an art perceiver? We want in each case for the person not to bring to bear irrelevant criteria in making judgments. We routinely expect this of judges [even though we know it often is not present, hard to discern when not, etc.] and we expect it of people assessing artworks as well. Now whether bringing in moral criteria, for example, is really part of art judgment is another matter, but I cannot see someone claiming that one ought not be be disinterested, for that would seem to disqualify the person from judging. And if we are merely asked to declare our interest, since we cannot but have one that "biasses" us, then I think we are being asked to do what we cannot do, since the people who ask us believe it is usually unconscious. Roger Seamon Home (604) 683-5662 Department of English Work (604) 822-8619 University of British Columbia Fax (604) 822-4520 Vancouver, B. C. V6T 1Z1 Canada __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 19:19:57 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA07662 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:19:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA02056 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA20496 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:44:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA20489 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:44:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from geocities.com (mail5.geocities.com [204.7.246.135]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA09104 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 17:44:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cheeklab41.smsu.edu (cheeklab41.smsu.edu [146.7.233.57]) by geocities.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA00876 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 14:43:10 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <3331BE6D.2B95@nic.smsu.edu> Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 16:47:09 -0600 From: Scott Gordon X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: music aesthetics Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Scott Gordon Status: O X-Status: Hello, I am doing a research paper on music aesthetics. I hope to specifically address the views of certain philosophers and their relationships with composers of that period. I plan to show how many different views exist on what aesthetic music is and if music is indeed a part of aesthetics. My ideas are still fairly broad as I have just begun my research, but any pertinent information would be appreciated. Thank you, Sheri McCord __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 21:35:48 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14368 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:35:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA27293 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:35:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA27970 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:23:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA27959 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:23:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id UAA03207 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:23:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Thu, 20 Mar 97 17:23 PST Message-id: <2837907@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 20 Mar 97 17:23:17 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland), aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: RO X-Status: cynthia's message is well taken. but n.b. that it really only applies (like the earlier message to which cynthia responded) to the sublime and not the beautiful . But the judgment of beauty is equally disinterested, says kant. as for roger's reasonable point, k has in mind what's supposed to be a difference between aesthetic judgments, and moral and practical judgments generally, since the latter judge the best thing to do, and for kant tht requires reference to our ends and interests. But aesthetic judgment is not practical. i think this is an interesting string we have going, and i hope others will join in, because i'm printing it out for my aesthetics students. bill peck red c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 23:06:43 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA15886 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:06:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA02682 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:06:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA00636 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA00627 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:53:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from m9.sprynet.com (m9.sprynet.com [165.121.2.209]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id VAA30281 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:53:57 -0500 (EST) From: lharri03@sprynet.com Received: from 206.175.191.211 (hd81-211.compuserve.com [206.175.191.211]) by m9.sprynet.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id SAA21302 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:53:50 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 18:53:50 -0800 Message-Id: <199703210253.SAA21302@m9.sprynet.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness To: aesthetics@indiana.edu X-Mailer: SPRY Mail Version: 04.00.06.14 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: lharri03@sprynet.com Status: O X-Status: I'm enjoying this discussion since it pertains to a paper I just finished. I discuss the idea inherent in "aesthetic attitude" which includes disinterestedness. I also like Bullough's essay because it allows for gradations of "distance" rather than attempting to define a pure aesthetic response. The opening of the paper mentions how this particular topic has drifted to the background of our aesthetic dialogue. I'm glad that there are some aestheticians who are still interested in this important topic. LH >i think this is an interesting string we have going, and i hope others will >join in, because i'm printing it out for my aesthetics students. > >bill peck >red c >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 21:05:49 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA14623 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA18555 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:05:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id TAA26282 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id TAA26269 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:22:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA14530 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u038.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.38]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id TAA18171; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:22:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 20 Mar 97 19:15:34 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 20 Mar 97 19:15:32 -0500 From: "Gerald Harnett" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:15:29 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: Plotinus, Augustine, Disinterest CC: postman@aldinepress.com Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <36FECA570DE@aldinepress.com> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gerald Harnett" Status: O X-Status: I'd like to ask what is meant by the following to remarks about Augustine and Plotinus, and for some textual references, if possible. > disinterestedness is what Kant it after. He's reminescent of St. Augustine > and even Plotinus in this regard. > My thanks. ________________________________________________________________ Gerald Harnett, Ed. The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions are tax-deductible. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 23:59:54 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA16410 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:59:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA13096 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:59:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA01938 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:34:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA01930 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:34:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA25588 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:34:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante28.u.washington.edu (dante28.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.102]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id TAA04796; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:28:32 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante28.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id TAA36064; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:34:44 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:34:44 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Gerald Harnett cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Plotinus, Augustine, Disinterest In-Reply-To: <36FECA570DE@aldinepress.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Glad you asked. Plotinus: "It [aesthetic experience] has nothing to do with the blood or the menstrual cycle..." --On the Intellectual Beauty in the Enneads. Augustine: Section 4 of Book One of On Christian Doctrine tells the story of the cart. Riding in the cart, feeling the rhythm of the wheels on the road cannot be as enjoyable as the arrival. Sorry I'm paraphrasing, but the "corporal and temporal" are useful in so far as they lead us to the divine. And, to clarify in light of these examples, Kant has said: "the satisfaction belonging to them [the beautiful and the sublime] does not depend upon a sensation..." The thread I see running through these aesthetic "theories" is that they are purely intellectual, and not concerned with the body's interest in the experience of perceiving the art object. Kant, Plotinus and Augustine are "disinterested" in the body. _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Gerald Harnett wrote: > I'd like to ask what is meant by the following to remarks about > Augustine and Plotinus, and for some textual references, if possible. > > > disinterestedness is what Kant it after. He's reminescent of St. > Augustine > > and even Plotinus in this regard. > > > > My thanks. > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Gerald Harnett, Ed. > The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 > Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com > The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions > are tax-deductible. > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 00:21:35 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA14183 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:21:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA04722 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:21:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA02241 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:47:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA02234 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:47:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA17745 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:47:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante28.u.washington.edu (dante28.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.102]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id TAA04816; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:44:31 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante28.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id TAA35728; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:47:50 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:47:50 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Cynthia Freeland cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Cynthia, I would argue yes with you, that it is an emotion, but how do we define emotion? It's latin roots suggest physicality, a real, palpable movement or sensation rather. Kant's emotions reside solely in the cognitive, as opposed to the body, the physical body. As I've quoted in another posting, Kant claims that both the beautiful and the sublime (this is in the Second Book of the Critique of Judgment, section 23) "please in themselves ... Consequently the satisfaction belonging to them does not depend on sensation..." The real-time, physical act of the subject has nothing to do with the aesthetic for Kant. We must suppress reaction, the zero at the bone, as Dickinson says, to reach the sublime. We must suppress emotion at the bodily level so it can remain cognitive and pure. But why is the body not pure? Jody Tate U. of Washington, Seattle On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Cynthia Freeland wrote: > I'm not a Kant scholar, but think that I want to disagree: > > >Reading Kant, one gets the sense that a pure disinterestedness *does* > >exist, and it lies in the "supersensible" faculty which is > >defined as a sense substrate beyond the so-called muddle of the physical > >and material senses. Kant would claim we can rise above this world into > >the sublime to a point of disinterestedness which would seem to be a point > >devoid of physical or emotional involvement: interest still exists at the > >intellectual or cognitive level, yes, but a physical or emotional > >disinterestedness is what Kant it after. He's reminescent of St. Augustine > >and even Plotinus in this regard. > > > >Jody Tate > >U. of Washington, Seattle > > The key thing that the supersensible arouses in the experience of the > sublime is RESPECT which I believe really is a kind of emotion. It is what > MOTIVATES us to be moral, and we do have feelings of our inability to live > up to the moral law, awe at its grandeur, etc. His account of the sublime > involves rather complex reference to emotions, since he says it involves > both pleasure and pain. The pain is easy to account for, that comes from > the fear or terror, but the pleasure is harder to pinpoint, since that is > associated with this admittedly cognitive and strange, allegedly pure > feeling or emotion of respect for the moral law. What I want to emphasize > is that the very fact that Kant says it is PLEASURE is worth noting. > (Derrida spends some time poking fun at the emotion of respect, as I > recall.) I find Kant is also coming very close to talking about how this > allegedly pure, mostly cognitive, experience involves feelings at the end > of the 2nd Critique, when he mentions our reactions to the "starry heavens > above and the moral law within." > > Cynthia Freeland > Associate Professor of Philosophy and > Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research > College of Humanities, Fine Arts, and Communication > The University of Houston > Houston, TX 77204-3784 > > (713) 743-2993 > > CFreeland@UH.edu > http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/ > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 00:29:24 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA16540 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:29:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA02779 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:29:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA02511 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:56:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA02504 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA06587 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:56:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante28.u.washington.edu (dante28.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.102]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id TAA06494; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:50:56 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante28.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id TAA27382; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:56:04 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:56:04 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: William Peck cc: Cynthia Freeland , aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: <2837907@isis.Reed.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: William, Kant is creating an aesthetic theory that can counter claims that "aesthetic judgment is not practical" as you say. Kant is very practical in the way he lays out his aesthetic: it is very business like in its formulation of rules, especially the big rule that "no sensible form can contain the sublime properly." Augustine feared the "peril of pleasure" that sung, instead of spoken, psalms instilled in him. The rhythm, the appeal to the body was too much for Augustine, and it seems like too much for Kant as well. So, I would argue that Kant is practical, very practical in the way he systematically reduces sensation to the lowest position on the aesthetic ladder, as it were. _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle On 20 Mar 1997, William Peck wrote: > cynthia's message is well taken. but n.b. that it really only applies (like > the earlier message to which cynthia responded) to the sublime and not the > beautiful . But the judgment of beauty is equally disinterested, says kant. > as for roger's reasonable point, k has in mind what's supposed to be a > difference between aesthetic judgments, and moral and practical judgments > generally, since the latter judge the best thing to do, and for kant tht > requires reference to our ends and interests. But aesthetic judgment is not > practical. > i think this is an interesting string we have going, and i hope others will > join in, because i'm printing it out for my aesthetics students. > > bill peck > red c > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 00:35:57 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA16603 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA01854 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:35:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id XAA02717 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:04:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id XAA02707 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:04:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA09171 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:04:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante28.u.washington.edu (dante28.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.102]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id TAA05704; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 19:58:38 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante28.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id UAA58798; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:04:19 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 20:04:19 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: The Verhaeghs cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Marcus, In response to your statement about cognitive variables among cultures and genders, etc. What would you say to the physiological, organic constants that give rise to those disparate cognitive faculties? I would not argue that they are proof for universals, but we all taste, feel, touch, know warm and cold, and so on, to a certain extent. Kant is espousing a universal "disinterest" in regards to our universal ability to be interested, that is, in touch with the material contours of this world. _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 02:04:01 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17082 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:04:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA04676 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:04:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id AAA09040 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:31:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id AAA09026 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:31:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA00506 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:31:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA15701; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:31:05 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:31:04 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: The Verhaeghs cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: In regard to science and law, pace Kant, isn't a scientist supposed to judge without regard to any goals or interests other than truth? I don't see why Kant says that the reality of an object means that in assessing statements about it my interests come into play. Similarly, with a judge, I don;t see that he is in any different position. I want to broaden the idea of disinteredness [speaking of not being disinterested] in order to take the heat off the aesthetic as if involves some peculiarly remote and disembodied response, something that we don't encounter routinely, and expect on a daily basis. It may be that the subject matter of art, like the subject matter of social sciences, makes disinteredness more difficultt and problematic than the sort of thing one finds in the natural sciences, but that is anothermatter. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 02:00:25 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17066 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:00:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA29867 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:00:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id AAA09093 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:33:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id AAA09086 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:33:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA25134 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:33:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA16473; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:33:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 21:33:43 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: "J. Tate" cc: Cynthia Freeland , aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: One can take pleasure in makign a scientific discovery or understanding a theorem, but that doesn't mean those activities aren't purely cognitive. Being moved by art may be simpy a sign that its well done, not the point of the doing. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, J. Tate wrote: > > Cynthia, > > I would argue yes with you, that it is an emotion, but how do we define > emotion? It's latin roots suggest physicality, a real, palpable movement > or sensation rather. Kant's emotions reside solely in the cognitive, as > opposed to the body, the physical body. As I've quoted in another > posting, Kant claims that both the beautiful and the sublime (this is in > the Second Book of the Critique of Judgment, section 23) "please in > themselves ... Consequently the satisfaction belonging to them does not > depend on sensation..." The real-time, physical act of the subject has > nothing to do with the aesthetic for Kant. We must suppress reaction, the > zero at the bone, as Dickinson says, to reach the sublime. We must > suppress emotion at the bodily level so it can remain cognitive and pure. > But why is the body not pure? > > Jody Tate > U. of Washington, Seattle > > > > On Thu, 20 Mar 1997, Cynthia Freeland wrote: > > > I'm not a Kant scholar, but think that I want to disagree: > > > > >Reading Kant, one gets the sense that a pure disinterestedness *does* > > >exist, and it lies in the "supersensible" faculty which is > > >defined as a sense substrate beyond the so-called muddle of the physical > > >and material senses. Kant would claim we can rise above this world into > > >the sublime to a point of disinterestedness which would seem to be a point > > >devoid of physical or emotional involvement: interest still exists at the > > >intellectual or cognitive level, yes, but a physical or emotional > > >disinterestedness is what Kant it after. He's reminescent of St. Augustine > > >and even Plotinus in this regard. > > > > > >Jody Tate > > >U. of Washington, Seattle > > > > The key thing that the supersensible arouses in the experience of the > > sublime is RESPECT which I believe really is a kind of emotion. It is what > > MOTIVATES us to be moral, and we do have feelings of our inability to live > > up to the moral law, awe at its grandeur, etc. His account of the sublime > > involves rather complex reference to emotions, since he says it involves > > both pleasure and pain. The pain is easy to account for, that comes from > > the fear or terror, but the pleasure is harder to pinpoint, since that is > > associated with this admittedly cognitive and strange, allegedly pure > > feeling or emotion of respect for the moral law. What I want to emphasize > > is that the very fact that Kant says it is PLEASURE is worth noting. > > (Derrida spends some time poking fun at the emotion of respect, as I > > recall.) I find Kant is also coming very close to talking about how this > > allegedly pure, mostly cognitive, experience involves feelings at the end > > of the 2nd Critique, when he mentions our reactions to the "starry heavens > > above and the moral law within." > > > > Cynthia Freeland > > Associate Professor of Philosophy and > > Associate Dean for Graduate Studies and Research > > College of Humanities, Fine Arts, and Communication > > The University of Houston > > Houston, TX 77204-3784 > > > > (713) 743-2993 > > > > CFreeland@UH.edu > > http://www.uh.edu/~cfreelan/ > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 23:43:34 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA16222 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:43:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA07709 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:43:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA01157 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:13:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA01150 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:13:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from mule0.mindspring.com (mule0.mindspring.com [204.180.128.166]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA21593 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:13:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from ip18.isdn1-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net (ip18.isdn1-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.37.18]) by mule0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA213274 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:13:36 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mule0.mindspring.com: ip18.isdn1-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.37.18] didn't use HELO protocol Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970321031318.006779e8@pop.pipeline.com> X-Sender: minsky@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:13:18 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Minsky Subject: Aesthetics: Dis-interestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Minsky Status: O X-Status: Everyone's talking about Kant. How about Heisenberg? Richard http://minsky.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 20 23:43:52 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA16206 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA31497 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA01357 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA01350 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:21:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout01.mail.aol.com (emout01.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.92]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA26059 for ; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:21:24 -0500 (EST) From: LBusbea@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout01.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA00184 for Aesthetics@indiana.edu; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:20:09 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:20:09 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970320222004_-935442386@emout01.mail.aol.com> To: Aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: LBusbea@aol.com Status: O X-Status: Thanks to C. Freeland for pointing out the essential component that we have all been overlooking: Kant's Moral imperative (which I have seen given more and less radical readings). Furthermore, on the relation of pleasure to disinterestedness, it should be pointed out that Kant distinguishes between the pleasure of taste (judgement) which arises from the forms of the aesthetic object insofar as they are "purposeful without having purpose." This is radically different than the pleasure of the parergon, which Kant frames as seductive, contingent, and "practical" pleasure. The implication that these two pleasures are complicit is what Derrida suggests (vis a vis "poking fun" at respect, as someone put it), thereby negating the purity of reason, disinterestedness, etc.. Lawrence B. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 02:50:37 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA17197 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:50:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA05521 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:50:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id BAA10473 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:27:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id BAA10466 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:27:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA17139 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante10.u.washington.edu (dante10.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.36]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id WAA04570; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:21:30 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante10.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id WAA21062; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:27:42 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 22:27:42 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: AP Postmaster cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Plotinus, Augustine, Disinterest In-Reply-To: <36455D42AE@aldinepress.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Gerald, I concede to your argument. I'm not able to read in the original Greek, etc in order to make a more substantial argument than what I've suggested from translated quotes. But I have to ask--since you know the original texts, where do Plotinus or Augustine promote an idea that is antithetical to our notion of "disinterestedness"? If it is alien to Augustine and Plotinus, where do they say that it is alien? What about their aesthetic approaches lead you to think that they aren't interested in "disinterest"? Certainly the word is not there, but the idea is lurking there quite ominously... _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, AP Postmaster wrote: > Replies to the posting of certain citations from Plotinus and > Augustine follow below. > > > Plotinus: "It [aesthetic experience] has nothing to do with the blood or > > the menstrual cycle..." --On the Intellectual Beauty in the Enneads. > > > > Augustine: Section 4 of Book One of On Christian Doctrine tells the story > > of the cart. Riding in the cart, feeling the rhythm of the wheels on the > > road cannot be as enjoyable as the arrival. Sorry I'm paraphrasing, but > > the "corporal and temporal" are useful in so far as they lead us to the > > divine. > > REPLY: These citations do not speak of "disinterestedness." To > support the claim that Pl. and Augustine believe that the experience > of beauty is disinterested, it's necessary to cite not texts in > which things are spoken of that the reader believes are > disinterested, but texts in which things are named by a Greek term > translatable by our term "disinterested." Otherwise we have no way of > knowing whether the things that the reader believes to be > disinsterested are believed by the author to be disinterested and are > mentioned by him in that respect. If Plotinus or Augustine thought > that anything is disinterested, and if this notion had any importance > in their views of beauty, presumably they'd have spoken the word at > least once. If anyone can produce a citation in which either does, > I'd be happy to see it. Otherwise I'll continue to believe that the > notion of disinterestedness was alien to ancient and medieval > discussion of poetry, fine art and the beautiful. > > Incidentally, I also very much doubt that the Greek that appeared > within the parentheses above had anything to do with *aisthesis.* > > Best, > > ________________________________________________________________ > Gerald Harnett, Ed. > The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 > Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com > The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions > are tax-deductible. > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 03:46:29 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA17461 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 03:46:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA21586 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 03:46:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id CAA11559 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:26:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id CAA11552 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA23835 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 02:26:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante07.u.washington.edu (dante07.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.9]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id XAA04390; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:19:56 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante07.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id XAA07550; Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:26:08 -0800 Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:26:08 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: "Musumeci, Salvatore D." cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970321052005.00676c54@pbac.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Salvatore, An earlier posting addressed the connection I'm making, but I'd be happy to clarify it. I suppose I am liable to be imprecated for not reading and quoting from the original languages these texts are written in, but a person has only so much time. Plotinus has the very odd quote regarding beauty in -The Enneads- in the selection "On the Intellectual Beauty" that reads: "It has nothing to do with the blood or the menstrual process..." Plotinus is demarcating the limits of the beautiful, but interestingly, the body is where beauty seems to stop. The title of the selection delimits beauty as intellectual, not physical, and the physical is rendered in the most grotesque terms Plotinus can imagine, which are, unfortunately for the modern reader, female terms. Kant never overtly imprecates the body this way, yet his intention seems rather similar to Plotinus: "The taste is always barbaric which needs a mixture of charms and emotions in order that there may be satisfaction..." Emotion is not an acceptable basis for taste (similar to Wimsatt and Beardsley's "Affective Fallacy"--similar, not identical!), but neither is charm. What is meant by charm is debatable, but I take it to mean rapture, fully "interested" involvement that opposes "disinterest." The fully interested would have to include physiological response--is that agreed? Like Horace, who talks of the audience's weeping, crying, etc (in some cases falling asleep!) as appropriate responses. Horace describes palpable physical responses to emotive states, and does not question their appropriateness. Kant, like Plotinus, questions the role of the body in aesthetic judgement. He claims that "The beautiful and the sublime agree in this that both please in themselves... Consequently the satisfaction belonging to them does not depend on a sensation..." The sensation, the physiological sensation has no place in aesthetic judgement: the body has no role in the aesthetic. Laughing, crying or falling asleep to art is not aesthetic for Kant, and certainly not for Plotinus. This is how I see a connection between the two. I'm not suggesting that Kant had Plotinus at his elbow as he was considering how to plot out his aesthetic theory, but the idea of the disinterested body has definite precedents. We can debate whether Kant is describing a purely cognitive disinterest until the cows come home. But it seems fairly certain that the body has no investment in the aesthetic experience for Kant, that the body is what needs to be disinterested, not the mind. _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Musumeci, Salvatore D. wrote: > Can you further explain your view concerning Plotinus and Kant? > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 01:48:50 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16815 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:48:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA18411 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:48:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id AAA08711 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:19:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id AAA08698 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:19:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA09374 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:19:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u030.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.30]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id AAA29155; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:19:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 21 Mar 97 00:12:07 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 21 Mar 97 00:11:52 -0500 From: "AP Postmaster" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:11:49 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Plotinus, Augustine, Disinterest CC: postman@aldinepress.com Priority: normal References: <36FECA570DE@aldinepress.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <36455D42AE@aldinepress.com> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "AP Postmaster" Status: O X-Status: Replies to the posting of certain citations from Plotinus and Augustine follow below. > Plotinus: "It [aesthetic experience] has nothing to do with the blood or > the menstrual cycle..." --On the Intellectual Beauty in the Enneads. > > Augustine: Section 4 of Book One of On Christian Doctrine tells the story > of the cart. Riding in the cart, feeling the rhythm of the wheels on the > road cannot be as enjoyable as the arrival. Sorry I'm paraphrasing, but > the "corporal and temporal" are useful in so far as they lead us to the > divine. REPLY: These citations do not speak of "disinterestedness." To support the claim that Pl. and Augustine believe that the experience of beauty is disinterested, it's necessary to cite not texts in which things are spoken of that the reader believes are disinterested, but texts in which things are named by a Greek term translatable by our term "disinterested." Otherwise we have no way of knowing whether the things that the reader believes to be disinsterested are believed by the author to be disinterested and are mentioned by him in that respect. If Plotinus or Augustine thought that anything is disinterested, and if this notion had any importance in their views of beauty, presumably they'd have spoken the word at least once. If anyone can produce a citation in which either does, I'd be happy to see it. Otherwise I'll continue to believe that the notion of disinterestedness was alien to ancient and medieval discussion of poetry, fine art and the beautiful. Incidentally, I also very much doubt that the Greek that appeared within the parentheses above had anything to do with *aisthesis.* Best, ________________________________________________________________ Gerald Harnett, Ed. The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions are tax-deductible. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 01:47:27 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA16747 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:47:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA16570 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 01:47:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id AAA08615 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:16:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id AAA08608 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:16:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.pbac.edu ([151.185.15.230]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA03719 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:16:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from PC.pbac.edu (ANTHONY.pbac.edu [151.185.14.102]) by mail.pbac.edu (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA177 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:23:14 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970321052005.00676c54@pbac.edu> X-Sender: musumesd@pbac.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 00:20:05 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: musumesd@pbac.edu (Musumeci, Salvatore D.) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: musumesd@pbac.edu (Musumeci, Salvatore D.) Status: O X-Status: Can you further explain your view concerning Plotinus and Kant? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 04:38:06 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA17477 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 04:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA22734 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 04:38:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA11909 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 03:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA11902 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 03:07:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id DAA29627 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 03:07:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Fri, 21 Mar 97 00:07 PST Message-id: <2839558@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 21 Mar 97 00:07:31 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: Roger Seamon writes that the notion of a 'aesthetic disinterestedness' (which is being attributed to Kant by various participants in this exchange) 'conflicts with the fact that we often do have a desire to own beautiful objects.' Once again other art forms are being upstaged by the fascination with the visible; for surely I can 'own' a copy of Donne's 'The Sunne Rising' that is, for aesthetic purposes, every bit as serviceable as a copy that Roger might 'own' albeit in a different binding or edition. Moreover, as Kant was well aware, we have an aesthetic response to natural objects (e.g. Mt. Fuji) and to phenomena such as sunsets and storms at sea that one could not hope to own unless one were seriously deluded. Neither is it clear what would be meant by 'owning' a dance performance; one of Beethoven's late quartets; or an economical and brilliant move in chess. 'Wanting to own' then is surely not the response that underlies aesthetic interest. Perhaps 'wanting to experience (again)' might be a more accurate description of this kind of aesthetic egoism; but then again, the uniqueness of an experience might be the very thing that one prizes about it. So I don't think that Roger's misgivings about Kant, if this is what they are, quite capture what it is about all theories of 'disinterestedness' that makes them seem so artificial and inhuman. He suggests that those (Kantians and others, I assume) who want to experience something aesthetically pleasing again are using the 'object' to which they responded initially by making it a source of 'aesthetic pleasure' (for them). But what else could it be? If one takes no pleasure in the thing or in the emotions it produces in one, in what sense is one even interested in it--given that utilitarian interests have already been ruled out? This would be a curious sort of interest: a brute interest about which one could say precious little. I have already said why I think that the 'disinterestedness' that is supposed to distinguish our aesthetic perception or contemplation of something from the other interests we might have in it is a curious sort of 'disinterest.' For it would make it possible to be interested in a thing 'for its own sake' and yet not know what sort of thing it essentially is in which one is allegedly thus interested. All good wishes, Robert Paul Reed College robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 10:59:03 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA23160 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:59:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA04898 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:59:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id IAA29989 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:43:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id IAA29982 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:43:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA01935 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:43:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u032.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.32]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id IAA07317; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:43:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 21 Mar 97 08:36:24 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 21 Mar 97 08:36:05 -0500 From: "Gerald Harnett" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: AP Postmaster , "J. Tate" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:35:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Plotinus, Augustine, Disinterest CC: aesthetics@indiana.edu Priority: normal References: <36455D42AE@aldinepress.com> In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <1C0832D1FA6@aldinepress.com> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gerald Harnett" Status: O X-Status: On disinterestedness, Plotinus and Augustine, a reply to J. Tate's post follows below. > I concede to your argument. I'm not able to read in the original Greek, etc > in order to make a more substantial argument than what I've suggested > from translated quotes. But I have to ask--since you know the original > texts, where do Plotinus or Augustine promote an idea that is > antithetical to our notion of "disinterestedness"? If it is alien to > Augustine and Plotinus, where do they say that it is alien? What about > their aesthetic approaches lead you to think that they aren't interested > in "disinterest"? Certainly the word is not there, but the idea is lurking > there quite ominously... REPLY: Moderns seem to find irresistible the temptation to redeem ancients from what moderns consider an unsophisticated and false doctrine -- namely, that the good, the true and the beautiful are convertible -- by finding in them evidence of the antithetical notion of disinterestedness. I've just finished an exchange on another list about Aristotle's *Poetics* wherein it was necessary to explain at length why Aristotle was not, as some believe, a formalist or proto- formalist. Hence I'm a little reluctant to begin an exchange of the same sort once again so soon. Here's a lead, however. The convertibility of these three "transcendentals," as the medievals called them, is discussed by Aquinas. He offers it without any suggestion that he feels himself to be at odds with any ancient or medieval author on this point; and Aquinas, because he is a master of argument, knows better than to offer a controversial view without rebuttal of the principal arguments in favor of the contrary thesis. In a word, beauty is "that which pleases when apprehended," and that which so pleases, is the good. Now, although in my view (which I'm not sure that anyone else shares) Kant's theory of fine art is dependent on Aquinas' in certain respects, nonetheless it is offered by Kant as a direct repudiation of this doctrine. Ancients did debate whether poetry was *utile* or *dulce* or both, but the claim that it is *dulce* and not *utile* is not the same as the modern claim that it is "disinterested." One can draw up a list of typical formalist theses, for example, and look for them in vain in any ancient or medieval author. In the other discussion to which I referred, there too I was asked for evidence of *contrary* views in these authors. I've offered some above. References about the connection between truth and beauty and between goodness and beauty could probably be found in many ancient authors. No text will be found, however, rebutting the claim that fine art is not disinterested precisely because no ancient or medieval author ever claimed that it is; and I'd suggest that the reason that no ancient or medieval authors thought that this thesis was worth affirming or denying is that the term "disinterested," at least as it is used in our modern discussions, names nothing coherent. One might keep a great many academics, indeed an entire discipline, busy for a long time, perhaps forever, debating the intricacies of a problem if its central terms are incoherent. One might think that one was penetrating ever deeper into the dark heart of a mystery, when in fact one was simply thrashing to no profit in the web of one's own bad terminology--like someone dreaming he is on a safari, when in fact he swearing and leaping about in his own bed. Best, ________________________________________________________________ Gerald Harnett, Ed. The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions are tax-deductible. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 15:54:03 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27235 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA15308 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA08439 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:06:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA08418 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:06:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA30654 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:06:15 -0500 (EST) From: mjk2@columbia.edu Received: from dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu (dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.47.100]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA27488 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:06:01 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970321135450.2f2f164e@pop.columbia.edu> X-Sender: mjk2@pop.columbia.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:54:50 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Scattered thoughts on Interestedness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mjk2@columbia.edu Status: O X-Status: Some miscellaneous thoughts prompted by the recent discussions: 1. On "loving someone for his/her own sake" (which came in at one point during the description of disinterestedness--I liked what Robert Paul said on this vis-a-vis his wife!): This issue comes up in several discussions of Plato's views of love in the Symposium. Interestingly, there what one loves about the beloved is his (I say "his" advisedly here) beauty. So one does not love the person for himself or for his own sake. Vlastos wrote a rather scathing criticism of this problem in the Platonic theory of love in his article "The Individual as Object of Love in Plato" (It is in his collected papers). I think one could re-examine this. Yes, you love only the beloved's beauty, but in Platonic love you want both yourself and the beloved to achieve a vision of the Forms. That is you want what's best for his own sake. Of course, for Plato you shouldn't in the end love a particular but only the Form. It seems undecidable to me whether Platonic love of beauty is "interested" or not. (To shift the discussion out of the Kantian framework for the moment. And back toward Plotinus and Augustine both of whom are working in a Platonic framework.) One loves, in the partner's beauty, not really that person but the (dim) reflection in him of the Form of Beauty. (Same for art objects too, of course.) But what does one love in loving Beauty itself? This experience (n. b. Mr. or Ms. Tate, I seem to notice both a Joseph and Jody writing from the same address) is described in quasi-sensory fashion as, e.g., having the mind's eye dazzled (!!!) by the form. If you love the form of Beauty, do you desire to possess it? Well, some Plato scholars would say no, what he thinks you really desire is to propagate more of it. This is just like what the philosopher rulers do in the Republic: they love the Good for its own sake; loving it for its own sake DOES lead to something practical, namely, doing your duty in the city by creating and administering just laws. Plato is very anti-body and anti-sense, of course, but still, much of his description of encountering the forms uses sensory images and language. What one really desires seems to be to gaze upon the Forms forever. (The same may go for the Christian God and so on in Augustine! But I am perhaps waxing sarcastic here.) (For a defense of Plato against Vlastos's criticisms, I really recommend Nussbaum's discussion of the Symposium in the Fragility of Goodness.) 2. I think in our discussions of the Third Critique, everyone always forgets that this is the critique of TELEOLOGICAL JUDGMENT which has a SECOND HALF no one ever reads! (I am as guilty here as anyone.) Both judgments of the beautiful and of the sublime do fit into the general natural teleology of humans--our relation as physical beings to a nature to which we are cognitively well-adapted. Nature suits us, and we suit nature; that is, it facilitates our achieving our ENDS (that's what teleology is all about). These ends are practical, aren't they? What else is it to have an end? (Honest question.) When we make judgments of the beautiful and sublime, nature "works" for us in at least the practical sense that it facilitates the smooth operation of our cognitive faculties. That's either the "free play" groovin' along (in the beautiful) or the way nature stimulates our recognition of the moral law (in the sublime--surely prompting practical activity in the sense of moral activity. 3. On objectivity and disinterestedness in science: This topic has been discussed a lot in recent feminist philosophy of science. You will find, e.g., Sandra Harding in various books of hers defending the view that "scientific objectivity" REQUIRES interestedness. Though I (and my students) find this paradoxical, I can try to explain what I think she means: if science as practiced has been, say, sexist or racist, it now requires active, partial commitments to anti-sexism and anti-racism in order to make science objective. And of course there have been endless discussion of whether science itself includes values such as elegance, simplicity, technological usefulness, etc. 4. On legal impartiality: There is an interesting article in the current New Yorker that brings to mind issues about our approach to objectivity in the US legal system. It is about the whole "victim rights" movement in relation to trials. Judges have the responsibility to ensure a fair and impartial legal proceeding. The judge in the Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma bombing) case has interpreted this to mean that no victims can be in court at the trial phase if they expect to testify in the punishment phase. They will no longer be impartial if they hear the trial. (As if they are impartial to begin with! And what does impartiality have to do with testifying during the punishment phase anyway?) There is now a movement to make a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT to ensure that victims can't be excluded from a trial. Apparently the legal issues do in part concern what would make a trial "partial" vs. "impartial." Advocates of the amendment believe the trial will be more impartial if their seemingly partial interests are represented at it in all phases, including their being present at it in the trial stage. Regards Cynthia Freeland Cynthia Freeland CFreeland@UH.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 15:42:34 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27094 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:42:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA02304 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:42:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA08929 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:07:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA08630 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:06:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA25824 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:06:49 -0500 (EST) From: mjk2@columbia.edu Received: from dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu (dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.47.100]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA27601; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:06:40 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970321135532.2f2faf48@pop.columbia.edu> X-Sender: mjk2@pop.columbia.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:55:32 To: William Peck Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Cc: Cynthia Freeland , aesthetics@indiana.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mjk2@columbia.edu Status: RO X-Status: On 20 Mar 1997, William Peck wrote: > SNIP SNIP SNIP k has in mind what's supposed to be a > difference between aesthetic judgments, and moral and practical judgments > generally, since the latter judge the best thing to do, and for kant tht > requires reference to our ends and interests. But aesthetic judgment is not > practical. > i think this is an interesting string we have going, and i hope others will > join in, because i'm printing it out for my aesthetics students. > > bill peck > red c Two Points: 1. Specific aesthetic judgments are not supposed to be practical; as the opening paragraphs of the Critique of Judgment insist, if you judge the architecture of Paris by the food served in the restaurants, you're not judging aesthetically. However, if we go back to Introduction, we find that the type of judgment (reflective judgment) is quite concerned with our ends and interests, that is, our interests as beings who think discursively about the "blooming buzzing confusion" (that's James, not Kant!) of sense perception. Kant seems to argue that an aesthetic judgment can't be MOTIVATED by an interest, yet CREATES an interest. 2. This discussion has been ignoring a rather crucial distinction that Kant introduces between pure and material aesthetic judgments. Above, Peck directs us to PURE aesthetic judgments. Kant doesn't deny that we make aesthetic judgments that ARE motivated by our ends and interests and personal quirks (e.g., we can't agree on which wine to drink with dinner or which color would look best in the living room). Now, I myself find it unfortunate that Kant is so disparaging of this class of aesthetic judgments, but that is largely due to his philosophical ends in the work (such judgments are not informed by a priori principles, so their analysis is deemed to be an anthropological rather than a philosophical issue). --Ted Gracyk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 15:51:25 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27195 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:51:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA09087 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:51:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA09424 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA08816 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:07:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA08154 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:07:16 -0500 (EST) From: mjk2@columbia.edu Received: from dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu (dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.47.100]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA27735; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:07:10 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970321135603.2f2fe7c8@pop.columbia.edu> X-Sender: mjk2@pop.columbia.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:56:03 To: Richard Minsky Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterested ness Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mjk2@columbia.edu Status: O X-Status: I for one am content Heisenbergize Kant, as long as we include interest in both the aesthetic AND the cognitive. But isn't this a question of limitation rather than disinterest? Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 15:53:54 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27252 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA04574 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:53:54 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA09137 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:08:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA09099 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:07:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA02605 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:07:57 -0500 (EST) From: mjk2@columbia.edu Received: from dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu (dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.47.100]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA27868; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:07:45 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970321135638.2e372b58@pop.columbia.edu> X-Sender: mjk2@pop.columbia.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:56:38 To: Robert Paul Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mjk2@columbia.edu Status: O X-Status: I was not the one who wrote about the wish to possess beautiful objects, but I still do not see the significant difference between disinterested inquiry and disinterested appreciation of art. I thought Kant's notion that the judgment of taste was universal was crucial to the idea of disinterest, and universality is what characterize pure and pratical reason also. I believe Kendall Walton a few years back made the point that I am reiterating, that our response to art is a response to somethign done well, and not merely having been stimulated. In other words it is based upon judgment. None of this means that I think Kant is right, just that I think there is no problem for him or us about disinterest being somehow too cool an idea for art, wherease it seems appropriate in cognitive judgments. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 15:48:40 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27158 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA02222 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:48:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA09586 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:09:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA09218 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:08:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.35.143]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA18564 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:08:13 -0500 (EST) From: mjk2@columbia.edu Received: from dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu (dialup-22-16.cc.columbia.edu [128.59.47.100]) by mailrelay1.cc.columbia.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA27925 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:08:05 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19970321135658.2e37528e@pop.columbia.edu> X-Sender: mjk2@pop.columbia.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:56:58 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: disinterestedness Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: mjk2@columbia.edu Status: O X-Status: I thought I'd add a few remarks about Kant's third Critique, in my inaugural post to this list. About the species of aesthetic pleasure produced by the disinterested judgment of the beautiful: Kant's tricky distinction between Wohlgefallen ('liking', in Pluhar) and das Angenehme ('the agreeable') turns on the mind / body dichotomy -- what is agreeable is bound up with sensuous pleasure, the charms and emotions which stir the senses in a way contingent on the material existence of the object. Liking, on the other hand, arises entirely (according to Kant) from the disposition of the mental powers or faculties (Vermoegen) -- the mind's 'free play' gives rise to what Kant calls a 'Lebensgefuehl' or 'feeling of life', such that the mind feels itself to be enlivened, animated, quickened (belebt) by the interaction of its own powers. In short, aesthetic judgment proper is a kind of autoaffection which is not limited by the urge to determine an object in a particular fashion, and is thus (in a certain sense) indeterminate (it is 'without purpose'). Hence, the botanist who judges the flower to be a hyacinth determines the object by subsuming it under a particular concept; the judgment that the flower is beautiful, on the other hand, refers back to the observer's own mental disposition towards the object. What I think also needs to be pointed out is that Kantian disinterestedness pertains to a theory of beauty (and of sublimity), and should not be restricted to an account of fine art. Indeed, natural beauty is in some senses privileged by Kant, to the extent that artworks are often too conceptually overdetermined for the 'pure' aesthetic judgment to take hold. (For this reason, Kant's theory of fine art introduces the complications of 'genius' and 'aesthetic ideas' to account for ways in which fine art can be judged disinterestedly). I hope this is reasonably clear ... Regards, Paul N. Murphy Graduate Student University of Toronto __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 12:27:16 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA24140 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:27:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA04815 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:27:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA27983 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:25:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA27964 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:25:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from mule0.mindspring.com (mule0.mindspring.com [204.180.128.166]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA17551 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:25:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ip247.isdn1-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net (ip247.isdn1-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.37.247]) by mule0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA64986 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:25:10 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: mule0.mindspring.com: ip247.isdn1-new-york4.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.37.247] didn't use HELO protocol Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970321152455.0069bf0c@pop.pipeline.com> X-Sender: minsky@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:24:55 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Minsky Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterested ness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Minsky Status: O X-Status: I think this subject is among the most interesting I've seen on any discussion list, and hope it stimulates new thoughts from the pedagogic history and comparative philosophy that have been presented. Since there has been some disinterest in the directions suggested by my one-liners (perhaps they are aesthetic experiences...), please excuse a longer elaboration: 1. I mentioned Heisenberg because if he's right, disinterestedness may not exist (in the absolute sense suggested by several postings). If there is an intrinsic dynamic relationship between the observer and the observed, the act of observing which gives an aesthetic experience changes it. Perhaps, as a number of postings suggest, the notion might be "dispassionate interest," as one might wonder why anyone would look at anything in which they have disinterest. But that begs the question, and demeans language. Is the question, "what is the nature of the interest (or disinterest) one has in the aesthetic experience?" or is that too dialectical for contemporary thought? You can only go so far with the Benthamite notions of value suggested by the Kantian discourse--perhaps we should Locke it up (to add a little Hume-r)-- but perhaps some philosophers want to make their Marx. ;>) Groucho Einstein 2. The "universality" of experience may be related as much to retinal stimulation of the endocrine system as to cultural paradigms. When teaching color theory in the 70's I'd have students take famous paintings and change the colors, like Golub's Torture of Che Guevara, with the torturers in hot pink uniforms instead of bile green. Pink has been shown to stimulate endorphin production. There are many other color paradigms, some going back thousands of years, such as color meditations on the chakras, color healing, etc. which seem to have "universal" effect on humans. Jung and others showed universality of symbols. So if these effects are taking place within the observer, whether caused by a calculated plan of an artist or an act of nature (whether a sunset or a micro-event inside the human's anatomy-- endocrine, neural, or a combination of multiple parameters), then how can a human judge themself to be disinterested? ........... >Perhaps one might delve further into the physiologic responses suggested by this thread, and consider the stimulation of Endorphins in the aesthetic experience (and other endocrine stimulation as well).< >Everyone's talking about Kant. How about Heisenberg?< Richard Minsky ........... > it is the mental representation which the subject forms of the object.< > Therefore, argues Kant, if contemplation of a mental representation causes pleasure due soley to the way it stimulates a subject's cognitive faculties (i.e, rather than due to stimulation of the subject's desires, interest in the good, etc.), every other subject will be able to take the same pleasure in this contemplation.< > This lack of recognition of differences in cognitive faculties translates, I would argue, into a lack of cognizance of the differences which exist in what will prove aesthetically stimulating for various individuals.< Marcus Verhaegh .......... >The real-time, physical act of the subject has nothing to do with the aesthetic for Kant. We must suppress reaction, the zero at the bone, as Dickinson says, to reach the sublime. We must suppress emotion at the bodily level so it can remain cognitive and pure. But why is the body not pure? Jody Tate< .......... > What would you say to the physiological, organic constants that give rise to those disparate cognitive faculties? I would not argue that they are proof for universals, but we all taste, feel, touch, know warm and cold, and so on, to a certain extent. Kant is espousing a universal "disinterest" in regards to our universal ability to be interested, that is, in touch with the material contours of this world. >We can debate whether Kant is describing a purely cognitive disinterest until the cows come home. But it seems fairly certain that the body has no investment in the aesthetic experience for Kant, that the body is what needs to be disinterested, not the mind.< Joseph Tate ........... >If one takes no pleasure in the thing or in the emotions it produces in one, in what sense is one even interested in it--given that utilitarian interests have already been ruled out?< >For it would make it possible to be interested in a thing 'for its own sake' and yet not know what sort of thing it essentially is in which one is allegedly thus interested.< Robert Paul ............................................ Richard http://minsky.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 12:44:41 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA24341 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:44:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA31524 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:44:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA28310 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:35:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA28303 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:35:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bayou.UH.EDU (root@Bayou.UH.EDU [129.7.1.7]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA09475 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.91.144.81] (kbender.nol.net [207.91.144.81]) by Bayou.UH.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA22732 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:35:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:35:01 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: Scattered thoughts on Interestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Status: O X-Status: Some miscellaneous thoughts prompted by the recent discussions: 1. On "loving someone for his/her own sake" (which came in at one point during the description of disinterestedness--I liked what Robert Paul said on this vis-a-vis his wife!): This issue comes up in several discussions of Plato's views of love in the Symposium. Interestingly, there what one loves about the beloved is his (I say "his" advisedly here) beauty. So one does not love the person for himself or for his own sake. Vlastos wrote a rather scathing criticism of this problem in the Platonic theory of love in his article "The Individual as Object of Love in Plato" (It is in his collected papers). I think one could re-examine this. Yes, you love only the beloved's beauty, but in Platonic love you want both yourself and the beloved to achieve a vision of the Forms. That is you want what's best for his own sake. Of course, for Plato you shouldn't in the end love a particular but only the Form. It seems undecidable to me whether Platonic love of beauty is "interested" or not. (To shift the discussion out of the Kantian framework for the moment. And back toward Plotinus and Augustine both of whom are working in a Platonic framework.) One loves, in the partner's beauty, not really that person but the (dim) reflection in him of the Form of Beauty. (Same for art objects too, of course.) But what does one love in loving Beauty itself? This experience (n. b. Mr. or Ms. Tate, I seem to notice both a Joseph and Jody writing from the same address) is described in quasi-sensory fashion as, e.g., having the mind's eye dazzled (!!!) by the form. If you love the form of Beauty, do you desire to possess it? Well, some Plato scholars would say no, what he thinks you really desire is to propagate more of it. This is just like what the philosopher rulers do in the Republic: they love the Good for its own sake; loving it for its own sake DOES lead to something practical, namely, doing your duty in the city by creating and administering just laws. Plato is very anti-body and anti-sense, of course, but still, much of his description of encountering the forms uses sensory images and language. What one really desires seems to be to gaze upon the Forms forever. (The same may go for the Christian God and so on in Augustine! But I am perhaps waxing sarcastic here.) (For a defense of Plato against Vlastos's criticisms, I really recommend Nussbaum's discussion of the Symposium in the Fragility of Goodness.) 2. I think in our discussions of the Third Critique, everyone always forgets that this is the critique of TELEOLOGICAL JUDGMENT which has a SECOND HALF no one ever reads! (I am as guilty here as anyone.) Both judgments of the beautiful and of the sublime do fit into the general natural teleology of humans--our relation as physical beings to a nature to which we are cognitively well-adapted. Nature suits us, and we suit nature; that is, it facilitates our achieving our ENDS (that's what teleology is all about). These ends are practical, aren't they? What else is it to have an end? (Honest question.) When we make judgments of the beautiful and sublime, nature "works" for us in at least the practical sense that it facilitates the smooth operation of our cognitive faculties. That's either the "free play" groovin' along (in the beautiful) or the way nature stimulates our recognition of the moral law (in the sublime--surely prompting practical activity in the sense of moral activity. 3. On objectivity and disinterestedness in science: This topic has been discussed a lot in recent feminist philosophy of science. You will find, e.g., Sandra Harding in various books of hers defending the view that "scientific objectivity" REQUIRES interestedness. Though I (and my students) find this paradoxical, I can try to explain what I think she means: if science as practiced has been, say, sexist or racist, it now requires active, partial commitments to anti-sexism and anti-racism in order to make science objective. And of course there have been endless discussion of whether science itself includes values such as elegance, simplicity, technological usefulness, etc. 4. On legal impartiality: There is an interesting article in the current New Yorker that brings to mind issues about our approach to objectivity in the US legal system. It is about the whole "victim rights" movement in relation to trials. Judges have the responsibility to ensure a fair and impartial legal proceeding. The judge in the Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma bombing) case has interpreted this to mean that no victims can be in court at the trial phase if they expect to testify in the punishment phase. They will no longer be impartial if they hear the trial. (As if they are impartial to begin with! And what does impartiality have to do with testifying during the punishment phase anyway?) There is now a movement to make a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT to ensure that victims can't be excluded from a trial. Apparently the legal issues do in part concern what would make a trial "partial" vs. "impartial." Advocates of the amendment believe the trial will be more impartial if their seemingly partial interests are represented at it in all phases, including their being present at it in the trial stage. Regards Cynthia Freeland Cynthia Freeland CFreeland@UH.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 12:38:52 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA24244 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:38:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA04876 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:38:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA28700 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA28691 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu (mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu [199.17.81.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id KAA04828 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 10:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by mhd1.moorhead.msus.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/09Oct95-1257PM) id AA07849; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:48:30 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:48:30 -0600 (CST) From: Theodore Gracyk To: William Peck Cc: Cynthia Freeland , aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: <2837907@isis.Reed.EDU> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Theodore Gracyk Status: O X-Status: On 20 Mar 1997, William Peck wrote: > SNIP SNIP SNIP k has in mind what's supposed to be a > difference between aesthetic judgments, and moral and practical judgments > generally, since the latter judge the best thing to do, and for kant tht > requires reference to our ends and interests. But aesthetic judgment is not > practical. > i think this is an interesting string we have going, and i hope others will > join in, because i'm printing it out for my aesthetics students. > > bill peck > red c Two Points: 1. Specific aesthetic judgments are not supposed to be practical; as the opening paragraphs of the Critique of Judgment insist, if you judge the architecture of Paris by the food served in the restaurants, you're not judging aesthetically. However, if we go back to Introduction, we find that the type of judgment (reflective judgment) is quite concerned with our ends and interests, that is, our interests as beings who think discursively about the "blooming buzzing confusion" (that's James, not Kant!) of sense perception. Kant seems to argue that an aesthetic judgment can't be MOTIVATED by an interest, yet CREATES an interest. 2. This discussion has been ignoring a rather crucial distinction that Kant introduces between pure and material aesthetic judgments. Above, Peck directs us to PURE aesthetic judgments. Kant doesn't deny that we make aesthetic judgments that ARE motivated by our ends and interests and personal quirks (e.g., we can't agree on which wine to drink with dinner or which color would look best in the living room). Now, I myself find it unfortunate that Kant is so disparaging of this class of aesthetic judgments, but that is largely due to his philosophical ends in the work (such judgments are not informed by a priori principles, so their analysis is deemed to be an anthropological rather than a philosophical issue). --Ted Gracyk __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 13:31:58 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA24958 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:31:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA18991 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:31:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA00088 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:27:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA00078 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:27:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA23831 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:27:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA23031; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:27:35 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:27:33 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: Robert Paul cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: <2839558@isis.Reed.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: I was not the one who wrote about the wish to possess beautiful objects, but I still do not see the significant difference between disinterested inquiry and disinterested appreciation of art. I thought Kant's notion that the judgment of taste was universal was crucial to the idea of disinterest, and universality is what characterize pure and pratical reason also. I believe Kendall Walton a few years back made the point that I am reiterating, that our response to art is a response to somethign done well, and not merely having been stimulated. In other words it is based upon judgment. None of this means that I think Kant is right, just that I think there is no problem for him or us about disinterest being somehow too cool an idea for art, wherease it seems appropriate in cognitive judgments. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 13:17:59 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA24705 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA31468 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:17:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA00186 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA00176 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:33:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA14239 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:33:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA24925; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:33:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 08:33:03 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: Richard Minsky cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterested ness In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970321152455.0069bf0c@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: I for one am content Heisenbergize Kant, as long as we include interest in both the aesthetic AND the cognitive. But isn't this a question of limitation rather than disinterest? Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 13:57:39 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA25366 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:57:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA21446 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA01262 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:11:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA01252 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.16]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id MAA05304 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:11:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.150.128.200] ([142.150.128.200]) by bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <160214(3)>; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:10:55 -0500 X-Sender: paul.murphy@mailbox51.utcc.utoronto.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:12:38 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: paul.murphy@utoronto.ca (Paul Murphy) Subject: Aesthetics: Re: disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: paul.murphy@utoronto.ca (Paul Murphy) Status: O X-Status: I thought I'd add a few remarks about Kant's third Critique, in my inaugural post to this list. About the species of aesthetic pleasure produced by the disinterested judgment of the beautiful: Kant's tricky distinction between Wohlgefallen ('liking', in Pluhar) and das Angenehme ('the agreeable') turns on the mind / body dichotomy -- what is agreeable is bound up with sensuous pleasure, the charms and emotions which stir the senses in a way contingent on the material existence of the object. Liking, on the other hand, arises entirely (according to Kant) from the disposition of the mental powers or faculties (Vermoegen) -- the mind's 'free play' gives rise to what Kant calls a 'Lebensgefuehl' or 'feeling of life', such that the mind feels itself to be enlivened, animated, quickened (belebt) by the interaction of its own powers. In short, aesthetic judgment proper is a kind of autoaffection which is not limited by the urge to determine an object in a particular fashion, and is thus (in a certain sense) indeterminate (it is 'without purpose'). Hence, the botanist who judges the flower to be a hyacinth determines the object by subsuming it under a particular concept; the judgment that the flower is beautiful, on the other hand, refers back to the observer's own mental disposition towards the object. What I think also needs to be pointed out is that Kantian disinterestedness pertains to a theory of beauty (and of sublimity), and should not be restricted to an account of fine art. Indeed, natural beauty is in some senses privileged by Kant, to the extent that artworks are often too conceptually overdetermined for the 'pure' aesthetic judgment to take hold. (For this reason, Kant's theory of fine art introduces the complications of 'genius' and 'aesthetic ideas' to account for ways in which fine art can be judged disinterestedly). I hope this is reasonably clear ... Regards, Paul N. Murphy Graduate Student University of Toronto __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 14:33:20 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA26147 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:33:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA04303 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:33:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA02484 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:54:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA02477 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:54:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA00113 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 12:54:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA12806; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:54:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 09:54:25 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterested ness In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970321152455.0069bf0c@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: = Opacity ? -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 15:54:14 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27257 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:54:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA15827 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:54:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id NAA04180 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id NAA04173 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA06041 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:53:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:53:48 +0100 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:53:46 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:54:21 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: O X-Status: I've been following this thread with great...interest, even though I'm no philosopher. It seems there's some confusion concerning the meaning of "disinteredted(ness)." Couldn't this simply be taken to mean that one is not selfishly interested, in the sense that one does not expect any foreseeable material gain of any sort, so that the aesthetic experience is thus devoid of any positive action on the part of the beholder, any action that would help him reach some kind of predetermined destination? Yet, this absence of a positive (acquisitive and/or inquisitive) action would stop short of passivity... One other point (maybe somehow linked to the previous one). Someone mentioned the possible relation between the disinterestednees of aesthetics and that of ethics. I wonder whether this could not be followed up by way of Levinas and his "face to face." To a certain extent, one may consider the aesthetic experience as of a nature comparable to the emergence of the work's "visage" to be experienced out of any other type of relation. Sorry to be (disinterestedly) muddling things up... Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 15:53:33 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA27232 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA11201 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:53:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA10903 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:12:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA10877 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:12:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id OAA24922 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:12:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Fri, 21 Mar 97 11:13 PST Message-id: <2842149@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 21 Mar 97 11:12:36 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness To: rseamon@unixg.ubc.ca, aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: Roger, I don't know how I managed to attribute to you something you didn't say, and I apologize. I'll try to respond to what you say here about 'universality' and 'pure' and 'practical' reason later. Briefly, though--you say: >and universality is what characterize[s] pure and pratical reason also.< I can't imagine how practical reason could be characterized as dealing with situations in which one had no stake or interest in the outcome. One might believe such conditionals as 'If one wants to play the bagpipes, then one should practice,' even though one had no interest in playing the bagpipes; but the conditional is not itself a piece of reasoning--merely one premise in a 'practical syllogism' that has yet to be constructed. All good wishes, Robert Paul Reed College robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 16:15:53 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA25224 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:15:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA13624 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:15:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA16182 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:25:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA16149 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:25:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from Post-Office.UH.EDU (Post-Office.UH.EDU [129.7.1.20]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA26140 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:24:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [129.7.19.221] (Mac-5085.AH-Building.UH.EDU) by Post-Office.UH.EDU (PMDF V5.1-8 #18580) with SMTP id <01IGRKUEAN8400005B@Post-Office.UH.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:22:45 CST Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:31:43 -0600 From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: Scattered thoughts on Interestedness X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia Freeland) Status: O X-Status: I am sorry if you get this twice, but I just got a message that it could not be sent as addressed. I thought it had gone out, but maybe I had cc'd it to myself. Some miscellaneous thoughts prompted by the recent discussions: 1. On "loving someone for his/her own sake" (which came in at one point during the description of disinterestedness--I liked what Robert Paul said on this vis-a-vis his wife!): This issue comes up in several discussions of Plato's views of love in the Symposium. Interestingly, there what one loves about the beloved is his (I say "his" advisedly here) beauty. So one does not love the person for himself or for his own sake. Vlastos wrote a rather scathing criticism of this problem in the Platonic theory of love in his article "The Individual as Object of Love in Plato" (It is in his collected papers). I think one could re-examine this. Yes, you love only the beloved's beauty, but in Platonic love you want both yourself and the beloved to achieve a vision of the Forms. That is you want what's best for his own sake. Of course, for Plato you shouldn't in the end love a particular but only the Form. It seems undecidable to me whether Platonic love of beauty is "interested" or not. (To shift the discussion out of the Kantian framework for the moment. And back toward Plotinus and Augustine both of whom are working in a Platonic framework.) One loves, in the partner's beauty, not really that person but the (dim) reflection in him of the Form of Beauty. (Same for art objects too, of course.) But what does one love in loving Beauty itself? This experience (n. b. Mr. or Ms. Tate, I seem to notice both a Joseph and Jody writing from the same address) is described in quasi-sensory fashion as, e.g., having the mind's eye dazzled (!!!) by the form. If you love the form of Beauty, do you desire to possess it? Well, some Plato scholars would say no, what he thinks you really desire is to propagate more of it. This is just like what the philosopher rulers do in the Republic: they love the Good for its own sake; loving it for its own sake DOES lead to something practical, namely, doing your duty in the city by creating and administering just laws. Plato is very anti-body and anti-sense, of course, but still, much of his description of encountering the forms uses sensory images and language. What one really desires seems to be to gaze upon the Forms forever. (The same may go for the Christian God and so on in Augustine! But I am perhaps waxing sarcastic here.) (For a defense of Plato against Vlastos's criticisms, I really recommend Nussbaum's discussion of the Symposium in the Fragility of Goodness.) 2. I think in our discussions of the Third Critique, everyone always forgets that this is the critique of TELEOLOGICAL JUDGMENT which has a SECOND HALF no one ever reads! (I am as guilty here as anyone.) Both judgments of the beautiful and of the sublime do fit into the general natural teleology of humans--our relation as physical beings to a nature to which we are cognitively well-adapted. Nature suits us, and we suit nature; that is, it facilitates our achieving our ENDS (that's what teleology is all about). These ends are practical, aren't they? What else is it to have an end? (Honest question.) When we make judgments of the beautiful and sublime, nature "works" for us in at least the practical sense that it facilitates the smooth operation of our cognitive faculties. That's either the "free play" groovin' along (in the beautiful) or the way nature stimulates our recognition of the moral law (in the sublime--surely prompting practical activity in the sense of moral activity. 3. On objectivity and disinterestedness in science: This topic has been discussed a lot in recent feminist philosophy of science. You will find, e.g., Sandra Harding in various books of hers defending the view that "scientific objectivity" REQUIRES interestedness. Though I (and my students) find this paradoxical, I can try to explain what I think she means: if science as practiced has been, say, sexist or racist, it now requires active, partial commitments to anti-sexism and anti-racism in order to make science objective. And of course there have been endless discussion of whether science itself includes values such as elegance, simplicity, technological usefulness, etc. 4. On legal impartiality: There is an interesting article in the current New Yorker that brings to mind issues about our approach to objectivity in the US legal system. It is about the whole "victim rights" movement in relation to trials. Judges have the responsibility to ensure a fair and impartial legal proceeding. The judge in the Timothy McVeigh (Oklahoma bombing) case has interpreted this to mean that no victims can be in court at the trial phase if they expect to testify in the punishment phase. They will no longer be impartial if they hear the trial. (As if they are impartial to begin with! And what does impartiality have to do with testifying during the punishment phase anyway?) There is now a movement to make a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT to ensure that victims can't be excluded from a trial. Apparently the legal issues do in part concern what would make a trial "partial" vs. "impartial." Advocates of the amendment believe the trial will be more impartial if their seemingly partial interests are represented at it in all phases, including their being present at it in the trial stage. Regards __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 16:21:57 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA27512 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:21:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA16390 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:21:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id OAA26494 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:51:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id OAA26472 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:51:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA13377 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 14:51:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante27.u.washington.edu (dante27.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.101]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id LAA06404 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:44:51 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante27.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id LAA57588 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:51:04 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 11:51:04 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Aesthetics Subject: Aesthetics: Plotinus and Kant Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Because of some "undelivered" messages, I'm not sure if this made it to the list. Apologies in advance if you get this posting twice... _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 20 Mar 1997 23:26:08 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: "Musumeci, Salvatore D." Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: your mail Salvatore, An earlier posting addressed the connection I'm making, but I'd be happy to clarify it. I suppose I am liable to be imprecated for not reading and quoting from the original languages these texts are written in, but a person has only so much time. Plotinus has the very odd quote regarding beauty in -The Enneads- in the selection "On the Intellectual Beauty" that reads: "It has nothing to do with the blood or the menstrual process..." Plotinus is demarcating the limits of the beautiful, but interestingly, the body is where beauty seems to stop. The title of the selection delimits beauty as intellectual, not physical, and the physical is rendered in the most grotesque terms Plotinus can imagine, which are, unfortunately for the modern reader, female terms. Kant never overtly imprecates the body this way, yet his intention seems rather similar to Plotinus: "The taste is always barbaric which needs a mixture of charms and emotions in order that there may be satisfaction..." Emotion is not an acceptable basis for taste (similar to Wimsatt and Beardsley's "Affective Fallacy"--similar, not identical!), but neither is charm. What is meant by charm is debatable, but I take it to mean rapture, fully "interested" involvement that opposes "disinterest." The fully interested would have to include physiological response--is that agreed? Like Horace, who talks of the audience's weeping, crying, etc (in some cases falling asleep!) as appropriate responses. Horace describes palpable physical responses to emotive states, and does not question their appropriateness. Kant, like Plotinus, questions the role of the body in aesthetic judgement. He claims that "The beautiful and the sublime agree in this that both please in themselves... Consequently the satisfaction belonging to them does not depend on a sensation..." The sensation, the physiological sensation has no place in aesthetic judgement: the body has no role in the aesthetic. Laughing, crying or falling asleep to art is not aesthetic for Kant, and certainly not for Plotinus. This is how I see a connection between the two. I'm not suggesting that Kant had Plotinus at his elbow as he was considering how to plot out his aesthetic theory, but the idea of the disinterested body has definite precedents. We can debate whether Kant is describing a purely cognitive disinterest until the cows come home. But it seems fairly certain that the body has no investment in the aesthetic experience for Kant, that the body is what needs to be disinterested, not the mind. _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Musumeci, Salvatore D. wrote: > Can you further explain your view concerning Plotinus and Kant? > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 17:25:39 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA28049 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA00629 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:25:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA28399 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:13:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA28392 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:13:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cueyatl.uam.mx (cueyatl.uam.mx [148.206.100.11]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id QAA21702 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:13:38 -0500 (EST) Received: by cueyatl.uam.mx (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA12775; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:12:06 -0600 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 15:12:05 -0600 (CST) From: Katya Mandoki X-Sender: mandoki@cueyatl To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Katya Mandoki Status: O X-Status: Not a Kant scholar either... MHO in this regard, put very plainly, is that all judgements (cognitive, practical and aesthetic) being disinterested, what characterizes aesthetic judgments is not only the kind of verdict (beautiful instead of righteous or truthful) but that such verdict is based on an inner state (free play of imagination and understanding or harmony of inner faculties) rather than on the state of the facts presented for judgement. For Kant, such judgements are aesthetic because they are subjective, not because they are disinterested. So why Kant's interest in emphasizing disinterestedness in the aesthetic? It seems he had an interest in raising it above the pettiness of the ordinary. In more worldly pleasures we can also achieve a similar state of "free play" and we are also interested in the object's existence. At the same time, to deny our interest in the existence of the Sixtine Chapel's murals or of the Iguazu falls, is pure hypocrisy. The notion of disinterest doesn't help Kant's goal, which has led me to think (among other things) that there really isn't such great distance between the two (art and the ordinary) from the point of view of aesthetic experience. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 17:24:24 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA28055 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:24:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA22360 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA28494 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:16:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA28487 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id QAA06917 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:15:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Fri, 21 Mar 97 13:16 PST Message-id: <2843232@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 21 Mar 97 13:16:02 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Aesthetics: Odd behaviour of the aesthetics list To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: Lately whenever I post to the list I receive a message saying that my post could not be sent as addressed (aesthetics@indiana.edu). I've learned to ignore these notices because my own posts to the list appear in my mailbox, and occasionally other people reply to them or refer to them. Now, though, posts from others have begun to appear twice, in identical form: one sent from aesthetics@indiana.edu and one sent from mjk2@columbia.edu. Where are we? (Where am I?) Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 17:56:18 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA28222 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:56:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA04016 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 17:56:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA00174 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA00151 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:31:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA26579 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:31:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante20.u.washington.edu (dante20.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.70]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id NAA18044; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:26:54 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante20.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id NAA48400; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:31:49 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:31:49 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Paul Murphy cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Paul, Interesting post. Let me ask... On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Paul Murphy wrote: > > About the species of aesthetic pleasure produced by the disinterested > judgment of the beautiful: Kant's tricky distinction between Wohlgefallen > ('liking', in Pluhar) and das Angenehme ('the agreeable') turns on the mind > / body dichotomy -- what is agreeable is bound up with sensuous pleasure, > the charms and emotions which stir the senses in a way contingent on the > material existence of the object. Liking, on the other hand, arises > entirely (according to Kant) from the disposition of the mental powers or > faculties (Vermoegen) -- the mind's 'free play' gives rise to what Kant > calls a 'Lebensgefuehl' or 'feeling of life', such that the mind feels > itself to be enlivened, animated, quickened (belebt) by the interaction of > its own powers. In short, aesthetic judgment proper is a kind of > autoaffection which is not limited by the urge to determine an object in a > particular fashion, and is thus (in a certain sense) indeterminate (it is > 'without purpose'). Hence, the botanist who judges the flower to be a > hyacinth determines the object by subsuming it under a particular concept; > the judgment that the flower is beautiful, on the other hand, refers back > to the observer's own mental disposition towards the object. > You mention a mind/body dichotomy in the above quote, and seem to know Kant in the original German. Can the agreeable, or that which arises out of bodily pleasure or sensation, ever give access, for Kant, to the "Lebensgefuehl"? Can a bodily disposition (laughing, crying, smiling, frowning--these are trite examples, I'm aware!) ever give us that "feeling of life"? Does Kant rule this out explicitly or address this question of the body somewhere? My questions don't presuppose an answer, but only presuppose curiousity... thanks Jody Tate (aka Joseph) U. of Washington, Seattle __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 18:10:14 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA28356 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:10:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA08737 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:10:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id QAA04178 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:42:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id QAA04133 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:42:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA26129 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 16:42:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante20.u.washington.edu (dante20.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.70]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id NAA15404; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:36:41 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante20.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id NAA13870; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:42:24 -0800 Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 13:42:24 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Katya Mandoki cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: This was an interesting post. I'd agree that we can't deny our interest in seeing the Sistine Chapel, listening to a wonderful opera or watching a Shakespearean play; but Kant seems to want to deny our physical, real-time, emotional interest in these things. When we see the Sistine chapel the hair might stand up on our arms and neck, literally; when we listen to opera or our favorite music we are allowed to free associate mentally but physically as well, we might feel an emptiness in our chest that reminds us of an old lover, but that's a somatic interest that gives rise to a mental interest; we can feel our blood boil as we watch Leontes treat Hermione as if she were a petty whore; we have responses that give rise to mental states and these responses are disavowed in Kant's theory. But, they are very real and to claim we can disinterest ourselves from our viscera seems to replace immanent joy for an unattainable jouissance or transcendental sublimity that we may never attain. I'm not espousing hedonism--but why can't we enjoy art here and now, in this world? Jody _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle On Fri, 21 Mar 1997, Katya Mandoki wrote: > Not a Kant scholar either... MHO in this regard, put very plainly, is that > all judgements (cognitive, practical and aesthetic) being disinterested, > what characterizes aesthetic judgments is not only the kind of verdict > (beautiful instead of righteous or truthful) but that such verdict is > based on an inner state (free play of imagination and understanding or harmony of > inner faculties) rather than on the state of the facts presented for > judgement. For Kant, such judgements are aesthetic because they are > subjective, not because they are disinterested. > So why Kant's interest in emphasizing disinterestedness in the aesthetic? > It seems he had an interest in raising it above the pettiness of the > ordinary. In more worldly pleasures we can also achieve a similar state > of "free play" and we are also interested in the object's existence. At > the same time, to deny our interest in the existence of the Sixtine Chapel's > murals or of the Iguazu falls, is pure hypocrisy. The notion of disinterest > doesn't help Kant's goal, which has led me to think (among other things) > that there really isn't such great distance between the two (art and the > ordinary) from the point of view of aesthetic experience. > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 19:24:35 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA26789 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA14907 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id SAA25330 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:15:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id SAA25323 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.pbac.edu ([151.185.15.230]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA28201 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:15:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from PC.pbac.edu (ANTHONY.pbac.edu [151.185.14.100]) by mail.pbac.edu (Netscape Mail Server v1.1) with SMTP id AAA106 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:22:31 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970321231930.0069cbdc@pbac.edu> X-Sender: musumesd@pbac.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:19:30 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: musumesd@pbac.edu (Musumeci, Salvatore D.) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: musumesd@pbac.edu (Musumeci, Salvatore D.) Status: O X-Status: Please excuse me but I just recently have caught up on the Plotinus, Kant, and disinterested debate. This is probably my undergraduates nature speaking, but isn't the concept of the "disinterested" if an experience does not have as its end the meeting of some practical problem, the satisfying of some want, or the solution to some intellectual question. I ask is a search for "truth" disinterested? How do truth and belief enter into our appreciation of the aesthetic? Can the aesthetic and the cognitive be clearly distinguished? Salvatore D. Musumeci Philosophy&Religion undergraduate Palm Beach Atlantic College __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 19:45:14 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA28849 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:45:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA10113 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 19:45:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id SAA25931 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id SAA25922 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:45:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.16]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id SAA10796 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:45:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.150.128.178] ([142.150.128.178]) by bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <160234(1)>; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:45:50 -0500 X-Sender: paul.murphy@mailbox51.utcc.utoronto.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 18:46:24 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: paul.murphy@utoronto.ca (Paul Murphy) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: paul.murphy@utoronto.ca (Paul Murphy) Status: O X-Status: Jody (a/k/a Joseph): You write: >You mention a mind/body dichotomy in the above quote, and seem to know >Kant in the original German. Can the agreeable, or that which arises out >of bodily pleasure or sensation, ever give access, for Kant, to the >"Lebensgefuehl"? Can a bodily disposition (laughing, crying, smiling, >frowning--these are trite examples, I'm aware!) ever give us that "feeling >of life"? Does Kant rule this out explicitly or address this question of >the body somewhere? My questions don't presuppose an answer, but only >presuppose curiousity... Interesting questions, and one which would require having a close look at the 3rd Critique. I think that for Kant, mental feeling of life is elevated because of the transcendental / universal basis of mind; sensuous or embodied life cannot be universalized as it is 'empirical' (or what he calls the 'pathological' in the Groundwork). He talks about how bodily gratification or pain affect the feeling of life at one point in the 3rd Critique: at the very end of the "General Comment on the Exposition of Aesthetic Reflective Judgment" (sec. 54), wherein he discusses Burke and Epicurus. I have it in front of me right now (prompted by your response) and can quote from it if you don't have a copy handy. The gist of the passage is that mental Lebensgefuehl is more important from a philosophical perspective, for bodily experience belongs in the precinct of 'empirical anthropology'. So he doesn't deny the body entirely, he just places it on a lower rung of the hierarchy of experience. One last note: where the body is felt most deleteriously is in the experience of disgust, which for Kant signifies the negative limit of aesthetic experience, and which at one point seems to be identified with mere sensuous enjoyment (at the end of sec. 52: mere enjoyment "makes the spirit dull, the object gradually disgusting"). By the way, Derrida has an article on 'disgust' titled "Economimesis". Regards, Paul __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 22:09:28 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA29751 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:09:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA00853 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:09:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA28277 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA28263 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout18.mail.aol.com (emout18.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.44]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA11782 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:12:05 -0500 (EST) From: LBusbea@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout18.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id VAA25310 for Aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:10:48 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:10:48 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970321211047_-1939257328@emout18.mail.aol.com> To: Aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: LBusbea@aol.com Status: O X-Status: Someone wrote: << For Kant, such judgements are aesthetic because they are subjective, not because they are disinterested. >> For all the conjecture concerning the categorization of various types of judgments, in this string, the one thing that seems clear is that there is a difference between the practical and the pure. Famously, Kant wrote the third critique to somehow synthesize the two categories of judgment. I believe Cynthia Freeland was earlier talking about the ethical component of all of this, and it is precisely because the individual response is universal (when it is properly disinterested), in Kant, that aesthetic Judgment can be moral. Lawrence B. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Mar 21 22:29:16 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA29871 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:29:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA16639 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 22:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA28561 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:26:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA28554 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA23107 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:26:46 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGS13E1R5S9AONVC@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:31:51 EST Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 21:31:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: disinterestedness To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IGS13E1TZ69AONVC@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O X-Status: The original posting, which began the present discussion of the topic of disinterestedness, said quite explicitly that the author had recently been re-reading Stolnitz on disinterestedness. It is quite astonishing that no subsequent posting has made any effort to explicate Stolnitz's views, much less the influential criticisms thereof by George Dickie, which set off something of a firestorm in the pages of the Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism in the 1970's. Let me quote briefly from Dickie, "Art and the Aesthetic" (Ithaca: Cornell U. Press, 1974). "In 1961, Jerome Stolnitz published three articles that greatly in- creased our understanding of the development of aesthetics in the eighteenth century. These articles focused attention on the rise and influence of the notion of disinterestedness, on the development of eighteenth-century British philosophies of taste, on the decline of beauty as the organizing concept of our thinking about the appreciation of art and nature, and on the emergence of theories of aesthetic attitude." ch. 2, p. 52 "In both taste and attitude theories disinterestedness plays a central but quite different sort of role. In the earlier theories it is the faculty of taste, the function of which is to react to the perception of specific qualities, that is disinterestedness; in the later theories it is perception or consciousness itself, the basic function of which is to provide awareness of the characteristics of the external world, that is (on occasion) disinter- ested. In the aesthetic-attitude theories disinterestedness has moved to a more fundamental position from which it can on some occasions either determine the nature of perceived (aesthetic) reality or be the only avenue to a certain kind of (aesthetic) reality." ch. 2, p. 59 "I have selected the theories of Jerome Stolnitz and Eliseo Vivas for analysis and criticism because they are typical, well known, and rather com- pletely worked out. Stolnitz defines the aesthetic attitude as the "disinter- ested and sympathetic attention to and contemplation of any object of aware- ness whatever, for its own sake alone." The notion of disinterestedness, which Stolnitz has elsewhere shown to be seminal for modern aesthetic theory, is the key term here, and he defines "disinterested" as meaning "no concern for any ulterior purpose". ch. 5, p. 114 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 00:24:16 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id AAA30508 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA10479 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id XAA29951 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id XAA29943 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:21:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA06458 for ; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:21:46 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGS5LU2WEO9APOFJ@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:26:53 EST Date: Fri, 21 Mar 1997 23:26:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness (addendum to previous message) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IGS5LU3AJM9APOFJ@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O X-Status: In a message posted a short time ago I quoted from Dickie's book, "Art and the Aesthetic". I neglected to include a relevant quotation, which I now supply. Dickie refutes aesthetic attitude theories generally (not just that of Stolnitz) on the ground that the aesthetic attitude is a deception -- that there is no such thing. He devotes several chapters to this refutation, stating at the end of the series: "... an aesthetic attitude does not exist... In the following chapter I shall attempt to develop a conception of aesthetic object that does not make use of any aesthetic-attitude notion," ch. 6, p. 146 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 02:40:27 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA31169 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 02:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA13951 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 02:40:27 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id BAA08428 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:31:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id BAA08421 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from SEMOVM.SEMO.EDU (semovm.semo.edu [150.201.1.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id BAA26229 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:31:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from SEMOVM by SEMOVM.SEMO.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 5051; Sat, 22 Mar 97 00:28:17 CST Message-Id: <22MAR97.00509021.0044.MUSIC@SEMOVM> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 00:28:16 CST From: "Albert W. Hayward C863HUP@SEMOVM.SEMO.EDU" To: Subject: Aesthetics: Dickie's argument X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V5.1.0 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Albert W. Hayward C863HUP@SEMOVM.SEMO.EDU" Status: O X-Status: I'm glad to see Dickie's argument against disinterestedness revived, for it is not simply an exercise in analytic philosophy (of which there are too few performances nowadays), but an actual refutation of a claim that for some reason refuses to die. As Kivy said in reference to a different theory (the expression theory, I believe), it may be a dead horse but it deserves a good beating every now and then. Dickie argues that disinterested attention is not a special KIND of experience, such as listening in a certain way, or looking at something in a certain way, but is simply the common experience of attending or paying attention with certain purposes or intentions uppermost in one's mind. Indeed he finds the idea of attending with no interests whatsoever to be confused. Albert Hayward Southeast Missouri State University __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 04:36:23 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA31860 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:36:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA19095 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:36:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA09355 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 03:20:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA09348 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 03:20:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id DAA19046 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 03:20:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Sat, 22 Mar 97 00:20 PST Message-id: <2846267@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 22 Mar 97 00:20:24 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Dickie's argument To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: >I'm glad to see Dickie's argument against disinterestedness revived...< For the record, I am not reviving Bill Dickie's or anyone else's arguments against the view that attending to something aesthetically is a species of disinterested attention (whatever that may mean). Whatever I say on these topics is my own; however, my conclusions seem so obvious as to be apparent to anyone who thinks about the subject for a short while, so they are in that sense 'unoriginal.' My colleague Marvin Levich was sceptical of the very idea of a special 'aesthetic attitude' in papers and talks delivered over thirty years ago. >Indeed he finds the idea of attending with no interests whatsoever to be confused.< To say the least. All good wishes, Robert Paul Reed College robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 05:22:33 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA01866 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA01139 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id EAA09587 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:13:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id EAA09580 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:13:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA12624 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:13:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante33.u.washington.edu (dante33.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.17]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id BAA09904; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:08:17 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante33.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id BAA21186; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:13:13 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:13:13 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness (addendum to previous message) In-Reply-To: <01IGS5LU3AJM9APOFJ@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: This is very interesting. Can you tell us more? Can we hold, feel, touch, hear, taste, see, etc the "aesthetic object"? Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle On Fri, 21 Mar 1997 CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU wrote: > In a message posted a short time ago I quoted from Dickie's book, "Art > and the Aesthetic". I neglected to include a relevant quotation, which I now > supply. Dickie refutes aesthetic attitude theories generally (not just that > of Stolnitz) on the ground that the aesthetic attitude is a deception -- that > there is no such thing. He devotes several chapters to this refutation, > stating at the end of the series: > "... an aesthetic attitude does not exist... In the following chapter > I shall attempt to develop a conception of aesthetic object that does not > make use of any aesthetic-attitude notion," ch. 6, p. 146 > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 05:32:08 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA02139 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:32:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA16325 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:32:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id EAA09666 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:27:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id EAA09659 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:27:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA16166 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:27:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante33.u.washington.edu (dante33.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.17]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id BAA12020; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:22:40 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante33.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id BAA19986; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:27:49 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:27:49 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: postmaster@aldinepress.com cc: AP Postmaster , aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Plotinus, Augustine, Disinterest In-Reply-To: <1C0832D1FA6@aldinepress.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Gerald, I certainly hope I don't sound as if I'm trying to rescue the ancients from their ignorance. I can see how I might, but that's not my intention. I agree completely with your quote below: > the term "disinterested," at > least as it is used in our modern discussions, names nothing > coherent. > > One might keep a great many academics, indeed an entire discipline, > busy for a long time, perhaps forever, debating the intricacies of a > problem if its central terms are incoherent. One might think that one > was penetrating ever deeper into the dark heart of a mystery, when in > fact one was simply thrashing to no profit in the web of one's own > bad terminology--like someone dreaming he is on a safari, when in > fact he swearing and leaping about in his own bed. > The term "disinterested" is still in the upper stratosphere in most discussions of aesthetics. This is what I'm trying to address. I posit that we can define aesthetic "disinterest", as it is talked about in various formats, as an attempt to remove physiological and emotional response from the aesthetic experience. So, when I'm using the term disinterest, that's how I understand it and I make the (foolish?) claim that my definition of "disinterest" might be a better way of approaching the concerns it addresses. That aside, and to clarify, I'm interested in how ancient and modern writers on aesthetics tend to disavow the body as the cause or source of aesthetic experience. The two ancients that I mentioned (although I hesitate to lump them together that loosely) are both deeply concerned with removing physical sensation from aesthetic experience, and thus they ask for "disinterest" by my definition. Do these authors, or other ancient authors, make a case FOR the body anywhere? Thanks, Jody (aka Joseph) Tate U. of Washington, Seattle __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 05:35:29 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA02155 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:35:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA14804 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:35:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id EAA09781 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id EAA09772 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id EAA02799 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Sat, 22 Mar 97 01:43 PST Message-id: <2846362@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 22 Mar 97 01:43:18 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Aesthetics: correction To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: 'Bill Dickie,' I said, meaning 'George.' Cheers, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 05:48:14 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA02018 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:48:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA18882 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:48:14 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id EAA09800 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:46:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id EAA09793 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:46:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA14583 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:46:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante33.u.washington.edu (dante33.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.17]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id BAA12464; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:40:28 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante33.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id BAA17226; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:46:11 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:46:11 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Richard Minsky cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterested ness In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970321152455.0069bf0c@pop.pipeline.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Richard, Your discussion of retinal stimulation was fascinating. Much work has been recently in psychology that suggests the existence of panhuman emotional states. The work by Klaus Scherer and Paul Ekman, among others (William James was one of the first) claims that physical action and/or stimulation can give rise to emotion. Smiling, physical turning the lips into a smile, can actually make one feel happy. This is a reductive retelling of the theory, but other work suggests that certain facial expressions have cross-cultural significance. Subjects were trained to locate and exercise certain muscles in the face, then, when told to move or hold a certain muscle in certain ways, the subject was asked to verbalize how they "felt" about that muscle configuration. Happy feelings coincided with what we generally recognize as a happy face, and vice versa. They were not asked to frown or to smile, but the muscle configurations induced those emotions. This work is psychological, and some would argue guilty of positivism, etc, but I believe it may be time to evaluate the work being done in other fields as they might bear aesthetics. But before that can happen, people must be convinced that the physical response is an appropriate response, and does not need to be repressed. Burke, Hume, Addison and even Horace all suggest that the disposition of our internal organs and our physical sensations themselves can the source and end of joy; an immanent sublime, if you will... _________________________________ Joseph Tate University of Washington, Seattle __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 05:48:21 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA02202 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:48:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA28278 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 05:48:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id EAA09853 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:54:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id EAA09846 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason02.u.washington.edu (jason02.u.washington.edu [140.142.76.8]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA27455 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:54:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante33.u.washington.edu (dante33.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.17]) by jason02.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id BAA13916; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:51:16 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante33.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id BAA22142; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:54:36 -0800 Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 01:54:35 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Theodore Gracyk cc: Aesthetics Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Theodore, What you mention is what I hope to address in my postings: > 2. This discussion has been ignoring a rather crucial distinction that > Kant introduces between pure and material aesthetic judgments. Above, > Peck directs us to PURE aesthetic judgments. Kant doesn't deny that we > make aesthetic judgments that ARE motivated by our ends and interests and > personal quirks (e.g., we can't agree on which wine to drink with dinner > or which color would look best in the living room). Now, I myself find it > unfortunate that Kant is so disparaging of this class of aesthetic > judgments, but that is largely due to his philosophical ends in the work > (such judgments are not informed by a priori principles, so their analysis > is deemed to be an anthropological rather than a philosophical issue). > Kant does set up this distinction between the pure and the material aesthetic judgement, and as we might? be seeing in this thread as we continue is that this distinction is reductive and basically impossible to make! Further, by "material", this is what I mean by my constant references to the body, this world, real-time sensation, the somatic, etc. As we interrogate Kant we should interrogate the present state of aesthetics and our own theories asking if we too make this distinction, which can amount a harmful dichotomy: mind over body. Why should one be privileged over the other?--and why do so few aesthetic theories suggest that the mind/body relation can be a positive and powerful force? Jody Tate U. of Washington, Seattle __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 08:16:26 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA00602 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 08:16:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA08966 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 08:16:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id HAA18211 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:07:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id HAA18204 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:07:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA14061 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 07:07:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id EAA21206 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:07:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 04:07:50 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Disinter[edness] Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: I agree that Dickie's criticism should have been mentioned earlier. Now it seems that Busbea, Hayward, cantrirb, Minsky, and I agree that disinterestedness exists, but is not what distinguishes the aesthetic or the appreciation of art. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 11:24:09 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA01145 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:24:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA17960 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 11:24:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id KAA19859 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:21:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id KAA19852 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:20:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mule0.mindspring.com (mule0.mindspring.com [204.180.128.166]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA17619 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from dick (ip202.islip5.ny.pub-ip.psi.net [38.26.51.202]) by mule0.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA178078 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:20:52 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970322153104.0067759c@pop.pipeline.com> X-Sender: minsky@pop.pipeline.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 10:31:04 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Minsky Subject: Aesthetics: AEsthetics: Dis interested mess Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Minsky Status: O X-Status: Today is Bill de Kooning's funeral. ................... >Now it seems that Busbea, Hayward, cantrirb, Minsky, and I agree that disinterestedness exists, but is not what distinguishes the aesthetic or the appreciation of art.< Roger Seamon ................... Perhaps I wasn't clear- I don't recall saying that disinterestedness exists. Perhaps it does, since there is a word for it. If it does exist it is not a necessary condition for an aesthetic experience. Since it has stimulated so much discussion, it may be a sufficient condition. Is it necessary to have an object to have an aesthetic experience? Contemplating disinterestedness may be an aesthetic experience, or transcendental. But my Heisenberg reference indicated that disinterestedness may not be possible, as the observer is not separate from the observed, or more particularly for this discussion, from the experience of observing, since it is the aesthetic experience which is in question, not the object. An aesthetic object discussion would also be interesting. There perhaps we would explore the border between aesthetics and art criticism, or, as tool of the working artist, the evaluation of a work in progress to determine if it is finished. Knowing when to stop is so important! The act of creation is in itself an aesthetic experience. What is different about the experience that gives it the sense of completion? There is a lot to be said about this in the future. ....... >Why should one be privileged over the other?--and why do so few aesthetic theories suggest that the mind/body relation can be a positive and powerful force?< >But before that can happen, people must be convinced that the physical response is an appropriate response, and does not need to be repressed.< Jody Tate ...... Perhaps repressing a physical response is an aesthetic experience. Since many of the causes of aesthetic experience are sensory-- sunsets, paintings, music, ..., the experience is de facto based on a physical response. To what degree the individual is in control of the response seems to be a big part of the issue. Some people seeek Control of Nature. Part of this is cultural-- is it surprising that Kant wrote in German? Look at erotic Hindu temple sculptures, African masks, or any of a number of non-Western artifacts which were created by cultures whose experience is not mind/body split. Are they not having aesthetic experiences? Perhaps the nature of the experience is very different. But it seems to me that often the intent of the creators is to stimulate a physical response. Let's update that to the 1970's. If you go into a gallery where you go up on a stepladder and Chris Burden fills the room with water with electrodes in it, is the fear of descending the ladder part of the aesthetic experience? Getting back to the endorphins-- familiarity stimulates endorphin production. The more times the same event is experienced, the greater the endorphin production. So kids like to hear the same story exactly the same way-- word for word. They get upset if you change a word. It's like taking away their heroin. Endorphin withdrawal. There's no place like home. That peaceful sense of security. Seems to me this is another reason why disinterested may not be possible. The longer the stimulant of the aesthetic experience is contemplated, the stronger the fix. Perhaps that's why Kant and them liked to get "disinterested" in something. Contemplate it until you get high. Richard http://minsky.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 18:39:06 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA03583 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA04895 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:39:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA18531 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:45:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA18523 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:45:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA09165 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:45:36 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGT879Q4ZK9AQ8JW@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:50:38 EST Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 17:50:38 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: Stolnitz and Dickie To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IGT879Q7TE9AQ8JW@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O X-Status: First, let me express my concern, as someone else did recently, that messages posted on this list are getting rejected and then re-printed several times. Second, let me emphasize that my intention was neither to agree or disagree with Stolnitz or Dickie but rather to call attention to the neglect of the original topic, namely what Stolnitz said. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 20:46:02 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA03936 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:46:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA04400 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:46:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id TAA19681 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id TAA19674 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:47:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from post.tau.ac.il (post.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.11]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA03499 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:47:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from 9.tau.ac.il (ppp6-1.tau.ac.il [132.66.250.61]) by post.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id DAA08557 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 03:47:59 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <333339C3.5B2A@post.tau.ac.il> Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 03:45:39 +0200 From: igal dotan X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: aesthetics:disiterestedness Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: igal dotan Status: O X-Status: A few remaerks concerning Kant's notion of disinteretedness; Let us distinguish Kant's theory of Beauty from his theory of fine art and artistic evaluation. 1. Kant awere of the fact that artworks are never devoided of human intersts. 2. When he discusses Beauty, he assert that pure beauty can be found whitin nature only. 3. Disinterested attitude towerds an object can take place only in nature. 4. When we come to appriciate an artwork we may do it aestheticaly but not necessarily. Aesthetic judgments, as they are, consist of pure beauty characters such as FORM or inner organization, whereas aesthetic judgments of artworks can be mixed with sensual pleasure or interests. Naturally, we cant ignore those components which are not pure in aesthetic sense, but we must'nt established our (easthetic) judgments on them; they are simply irrelevant for that purpose. 5. We may come to think that kant represents us with a kind of formalism. Well he does, but not such as bell's or fry's formalism. Kant's formalism, if I may relate his aesthetics to that sort of thinking, isn't restricted to the visul art and music (as that of his followers does), but can be appleid to any form of art. Now the reason Im saying that is that, according to Kant, in aesthetic judgment we concern ourself not with the object form directly but through the harmonic play of imagination and understanding. In order to clarify this problematic point, let me adress you to a very common but still anigmatic creature - the METAPHORE (M). What really striks us with M is it's schizoid nature. On the one hand, M's has a simple and common logical structure i.e 'A is B'; on the othr hand A and B are'nt synonyms, nor they belong to the the same semantic field in "ordinary" language. Moreover, any attemp to paraphrase a M is doomed to fail - we simply can't express it's meaning by using an alternative pair of words, or by replacing one of them in order to have a different expression with the same meaning - we need more then a few words to do so properly. Now, when we try to describe it's cognitive charcters we may think of (and that what we usually do) a stream of associations which are "bound" to each other by a wide or fuzzy framework, which is yet not an arbitrary one. In other words, we can grasp the meaning but we can't fix it as a concept or as a simple expression as we do with ordinary 'A is B' form. Kant's formalism could be reffer to this sort of cognitive mode i.e, an ongoing flow of association, given by the imagination and directed by understanding without being fixed to become an object; namely, there is no one and unified concept that could be establishd on such a multiplicity: there is no final purpose. This version of formalism can be applied to poetry as well as to prose and other litterary arts. 6. In aggriable beauty we tend to ignore that aspect of aesthetic attitude and prefer that of sensual pleasure. On the othr hand, when judging exquisite works of art, we are able to overcome the aggreable and concentraete ourself on pure beauty; i.e we feel how the object is stimulating our faculties without locking them. In that sense interests can interfere with aesthetic experience, but are neithr a negative sufficint nor their absence is nessesary, for aesthetic judgments (in art criticism).We can do well with them or without them, it's all depend on our skills and on the artwork quality. Igal dotan department of philosophy: TEL AVIV UN; ISRAEL. Now, that version of Formalism can be applied to poetry as well as to __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 21:22:28 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04056 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:22:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA17291 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA20157 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:28:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA20145 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:28:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id UAA02533 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:28:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Sat, 22 Mar 97 17:28 PST Message-id: <2847590@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 22 Mar 97 17:28:05 PST From: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Subject: Aesthetics: aesthetics:disinterest To: musumesd@pbac.edu (Musumeci, Salvatore D.), aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: William.Peck@directory.Reed.EDU (William Peck) Status: O X-Status: student musumeci has economically packaged a bunch of the salient points in re kant's aesthetics. it's well, i should think, to state for the record at the top that "disinterested" does not ="uninterested". (legal) judges are supposed to be dis- but not un-. dis-"interested" = not having a personal "interest" in, as in hoping to make a lot of money out of. And then Kant does of course essentially connect aesthetic judgment with pleasure - taking pleasure in the perception of something (and thus wanting to keep on perceiving it [cet. par.]). but the pleasure is dis-, = what anyone might and indeed should feel upon perceiving this magnificent X. and/but thrilling to a high c just because you love that particular note = sound (or that particular shade of purple...) isn't aesthetic, since aesthetic pleasure isn't about "thrills". ( how many times do teachers have occasion to say (the equivalent of) this to aesthetics students, or students and/or wannabe authors of music , poetry, et al.?) but of course not everyone shares these predilections - why should they? (de thrillibus...) on moral judgment: of course it's supposed to be disinterested too, as in the case of the law (legal system). but moral judgments are "practical" in the old scholastic sense: they're about what to do. but aesthetic judgments aren't practical, says kant. and scientific judgment: any rational person on the basis of this evidence should agree that p. but such judgments are of course cognitive and what K calls "determining" (bestimmende), whereas aesthetic judgments are not but rather "reflective", as in looking for a concept to cover the particular perceived. toward the beginn9ng of the the thread i disagreed with linda irvine on the connection between aesthetic perception and interest in the whole being of the perceived. colleague robt paul had some spirited and nifty points to add about the issue. i'd like to add that if one takes love as the paradigm if whole-being-interest, i don't love my wife because she's beautiful (though she is). people say that, but "beauty" in this connection propably = "thrilling". and true and great beauty stills desire. (that's not my own.) merleau-ponty noted that once you get to know someone you usually don't really pay attention to what she looks like. my gloss: the relationship doesn't depend on looks. but i must just add that in the 20th century, given the art of this period, it's important not to assume that aesthetic perception is necessarily connected to beauty. bill peck reed c __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 22:12:47 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04248 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:12:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA26123 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:12:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA20863 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:22:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA20856 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:22:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA09009 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:22:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA09203; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:22:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 18:22:22 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Aesthetic Disinterest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: Isn't one problem with Linda's ecological hopes that she cares about the reality of nature, indeed I think she wants to use it in a certain way, and the things that we are to be aware of, eg the intricate nature of ecosystems are as real as real can be, whereas Kant was looking at design which seemed purposeless. The ecological view would see purpose or function everywhere. I think Linda wants us to care less about certain of our purposes [bigger houses in prettier, temporarily, lcoations] in favor of other purposes, meditative pleasures. That seems different to me, and perhaps even more defensible. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 21:29:06 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04112 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:29:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA13380 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA20189 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:31:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA20179 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:30:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bayou.UH.EDU (root@Bayou.UH.EDU [129.7.1.7]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA06453 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:30:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.91.144.81] (kbender.nol.net [207.91.144.81]) by Bayou.UH.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA27624 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:30:41 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 19:30:41 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: Re: "The Ancients" & Disinterest Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Status: O X-Status: In response to Jody-Joseph Tate: >That aside, and to clarify, I'm interested in >how ancient and modern writers on aesthetics tend to disavow the body as >the cause or source of aesthetic experience. The two ancients that I >mentioned (although I hesitate to lump them together that loosely) are >both deeply concerned with removing physical sensation from aesthetic >experience, and thus they ask for "disinterest" by my definition. Do these >authors, or other ancient authors, make a case FOR the body anywhere? I just don't think that it is true to say that "ancient writers...tend to disavow the body as the cause or source of aesthetic experience." The first thing to say is that the ancients just don't have the notion of "aesthetic experience" like that developed since the 18th century. You won't find anything like this, to my knowledge, in any presocratics or in anyone up well into the Hellenistic period. So, do they "disavow the body" as "source or cause" of some kind of experience of art or beauty? No. (Note that "source or cause" is awfully vague here.) To ask if any ancient authors make a case FOR the body is a pretty overwhelming question! Sure they do! Democritus thinks it is ALL body even ethics! Everything is atoms! Heraclitus thinks it is all FIRE! Through our own fire we perceive a pretty grand aesthetic phenomenon, the cosmos itself! And on and on. What do you mean by your question? WHat exactly is it you want to give the body so much credit for? In a previous post I mentioned that, though Plato is very anti-sense and anti-body (see e.g. a dialogue like the Phaedo where the body is a tomb for the soul), he nevertheless (a) conceives of the senses and especially vision as very important in propelling us toward the forms (on this see especially Timaeus 46c-47e, without our eyes we would not do philosophy at all!), and (b) describes the experience of the form of Beauty in visual terms. Furthermore, there are authors like Nussbaum, Irigaray, and Derrida who read works like the Symposium and Phaedrus as in effect defending a kind of limited value in sexual desire, since it is this sort of eros that gets us launched on our eventual ascent toward the forms. And in the Philebus Plato (finally) admits there are "pure pleasures" of the senses that are morally just fine, like the pure smell of a nice flower (not his example but I think it's what he means)--they can even contribute to the value of a good life. If you take the experience of tragedy as a kind of paradigm art experience for Aristotle, well yes, the body is definitely involved, since tragedy evokes the key emotions of pity and fear, and all emotions in his view have a bodily aspect. You could also make a case that the Stoics took a kind of aesthetic approach to the cosmos as a whole, since they wanted to see everything in it as just and part of a big plan. Remember they often invoke the analogy between God/Zeus and a great playwright. Thus even ugliness and pain are part of the overall beauty of the cosmos. Physical experiences like seeing, smelling, and tasting are all an essential part of recognizing the presence of the divinity in the cosmos. This is linked to the whole Stoic notion of cataleptic impressions--you have an epistemology that legitimates sense knowledge, and sense knowledge in turn gives you this "aesthetico-moral" appreciation of the cosmic design. (There are especially good passages like this in Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. I don't have the book here in front of me, but he talks about how the incipient rottenness of the figs, or the way the crust is brown and breaks open on the bread, adds to their allure and desirability, because one recognizes these as essential parts of their very natures.) I think maybe the framework of your whole consideration of some kind of huge contrast between the mental and the physical is a "modern" one. Cynthia Freeland CFreeland@UH.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 21:17:23 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id VAA04033 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:17:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA19527 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:17:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id UAA20022 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id UAA20015 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id UAA05387 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:15:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.150.128.174] ([142.150.128.143]) by bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <159809(2)>; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:14:59 -0500 X-Sender: linda.irvine@mailbox92.utcc.utoronto.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetic Disinterest Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 20:14:56 -0500 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Status: O X-Status: Greetings: As the instigator of this fabulous and insightful discussion on 'disinterestedness' I'd like all of the participants to know how much I've enjoyed this dialogue. Thanks to you all. My own interest in the notion of 'distinterestedness' stems from my research in ecological aesthetics and on the belief that an aesthetics of environment should be based, in part, on the notion of intrinsic worth, in which the properties and values of the environment are appreciated for their own sake alone. Clearly, an ecological way of being-in-the-world requires that we accept and respect the intrinsic or inherent value of all entities and consequently, that we value nature -- aesthetically -- not for its usefulness for human purposes or human gain, but for 'its own sake alone'. Furthermore, I believe that only by appreciating nature 'for its own sake' will we be able to conceive of nature as autonomous and in its full individuality -- as wholly other. By accepting nature for what it is, we release nature from being ours, to being its own for which we can not own it. Not surprisingly, traditional, formal, and reductionistic aesthetic theories are inappropriate because they view the material world in a subject/object context and do not attempt to appreciate nature for what it is, its qualities or how it is experienced. Many others, including A. Carlson, H. Rolston III, and A. Berleant have written extensively on this topic. My own interest in the notion of 'disinterestedness' stems from a desire to find, in aesthetic theory, a way of perceiving the world that can fully appreciate the very essence, character and intrinsic qualities of nature, including life quality and life process. Towards this end, I believe that the concept of 'disinterestedness' -- not to be confused with 'uninterestedness' which connotes apathy and indifference -- may provide some insights into how we can change our perception of nature from an aesthetic commodity (akin to aesthetic real estate) to a truly authentic aesthetic experience (akin to aesthetic realization). Thus, it may be that only by being 'disinterested' (Kant's purposive purposelessness) that we can,infact adopt an indifferent, non-egoistic and non-moral attitude (so that will and desire are held in abeyance) and we are able to truly appreciate nature 'for its own sake alone'. As Lao-tzu so elequently observed: "Free from desire, you realize the mystery. Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations." Thanks again for the fruitful discussion. Regards, Linda __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Mar 22 22:04:53 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA04225 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:04:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA22940 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 22:04:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA20723 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:16:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA20716 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:16:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.16]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id VAA12883 for ; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:16:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.150.128.172] ([142.150.128.172]) by bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <159808(4)>; Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:15:52 -0500 X-Sender: linda.irvine@mailbox92.utcc.utoronto.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetic Disinterestedness Date: Sat, 22 Mar 1997 21:15:51 -0500 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Status: O X-Status: (Got that nasty "nondeliverable message", so I'm trying again. My apologies to those who may get this message twice). Greetings: As the instigator of this fabulous and insightful discussion on 'disinterestedness' I'd like all of the participants to know how much I've enjoyed this dialogue. Thanks to you all. My own interest in the notion of 'distinterestedness' stems from my research in ecological aesthetics and on the belief that an aesthetics of environment should be based, in part, on the notion of intrinsic worth, in which the properties and values of the environment are appreciated for their own sake alone. Clearly, an ecological way of being-in-the-world requires that we accept and respect the intrinsic or inherent value of all entities and consequently, that we value nature -- aesthetically -- not for its usefulness for human purposes or human gain, but for 'its own sake alone'. Furthermore, I believe that only by appreciating nature 'for its own sake' will we be able to conceive of nature as autonomous and in its full individuality -- as wholly other. By accepting nature for what it is, we release nature from being ours, to being its own for which we can not own it. Not surprisingly, traditional, formal, and reductionistic aesthetic theories are inappropriate because they view the material world in a subject/object context and do not attempt to appreciate nature for what it is, its qualities or how it is experienced. Many others, including A. Carlson, H. Rolston III, and A. Berleant have written extensively on this topic. My own interest in the notion of 'disinterestedness' stems from a desire to find, in aesthetic theory, a way of perceiving the world that can fully appreciate the very essence, character and intrinsic qualities of nature, including life quality and life process. Towards this end, I believe that the concept of 'disinterestedness' -- not to be confused with 'uninterestedness' which connotes apathy and indifference -- may provide some insights into how we can change our perception of nature from an aesthetic commodity (akin to aesthetic real estate) to a truly authentic aesthetic experience (akin to aesthetic realization). Thus, it may be that only by being 'disinterested' (Kant's purposive purposelessness) that we can,infact adopt an indifferent, non-egoistic and non-moral attitude (so that will and desire are held in abeyance) and we are able to truly appreciate nature 'for its own sake alone'. As Lao-tzu so elequently observed: "Free from desire, you realize the mystery. Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations." Thanks again for the fruitful discussion. Regards, Linda __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 23 04:14:41 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA06825 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 04:14:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA07656 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 04:14:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA24653 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 03:11:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA24646 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 03:11:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from post.tau.ac.il (post.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.11]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA05573 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 03:11:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccsg.tau.ac.il (griffin@ccsg.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.2]) by post.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA19178 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:12:02 +0300 (IDT) Received: from localhost (griffin@localhost) by ccsg.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA14505 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:11:17 +0300 (IDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ccsg.tau.ac.il: griffin owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 11:11:17 +0300 (IDT) From: "Robert J. Griffin" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetic Disinterestedness Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Robert J. Griffin" Status: O X-Status: One way of looking at the concept of 'disinterestedness' is not in terms of defining its content, but of looking at how it was meant to function. Some of the contributors to the discussion have already done this, but I would like to bring in Schiller's Letters on the Aesthetic Education of Man. In the sixth letter Schiller argues that the growth of empirical knowledge has separated man (his term) from the harmony of "nature." Art is civilization's means of healing the wound that civilization inflicts by re-harmonizing and re-integrating the mental faculties. I suppose there are a few ways of looking at this idea. One is to agree with it, and another is to think that it might be proposing that art become the opium of the masses in response to problems of modernization. The focus is not on the conceptual content of the object, but on the effect, or utility, of the experience. The role of art in socializing a population to a particular set of values cannot be easily set aside. And there may be enough ambiguity in the conceptual content of a work that its reception may take conservative or subversive forms. But in either case, the disinterest of the aesthetic experience does not occur in a vacuum. Robert Griffin Department of English Tel Aviv University __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 23 10:32:23 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id KAA10884 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:32:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA12503 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 10:32:23 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id JAA15587 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:35:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id JAA15580 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:35:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from athens.emi.net (emi.net [204.181.45.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA08584 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:35:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [208.2.80.243] (csfl011.emi.net [208.2.80.243]) by athens.emi.net (8.7.5/8.6.10) with ESMTP id JAA10695 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:49:48 -0500 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 09:39:01 -0500 To: Aesthetics From: Keith Snider Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Keith Snider Status: O X-Status: >From the statements of Joseph Tate: > We can debate whether Kant is describing a purely cognitive >disinterest until the cows come home. But it seems fairly certain that the >body has no investment in the aesthetic experience for Kant, that the body >is what needs to be disinterested, not the mind. Before the Kantian discussion disappears - J. Tate has asked the question several times - what is the role of the body in aesthetic judgment? I would like to look at this problem and by doing so I believe it might be possible to understand the difference between the practical and the pure by looking at what he says about the sublime. Looking at Kant's disinterested subject - I would see this as an ideal situation that must be the goal of all judgments, and while it would be nice to reach this cognitive state, at some point, I think even Kant would say that this ideal would fail. I want to say this because of the way he defines the sublime as a loss of order (some terrible event or something without form that can be pleasurable at a safe distance away from the observing subject). That a stampede of elephants at a safe distance can bring to the observing subject pleasure. However, if this chaotic event comes too close to the observer, and threatens the observer, then the sublime turns from beauty to horror and fear. Now, at the point where this loss of order crosses the threshold from pleasure to fear, could we say what is being transgressed is that last sense of order that we all have - our body? Therefore, there is beauty in the terrible as long as we feel safe and our own sense of order is not threatened. The idea that a subject can be disinterested while making judgments is true only if one's own personal interest is not threatened; and finally it seems that while Kant is attempting to remove the interested body from the act of judgment - there is a point where he can't - and at that point, Kant is recognizing that the concept of the disinterested subject will fail. (what Paul Murphy writes as a lower rung experience) Due to this, it seems Kant concedes that there is a point where the body has an investment in the act of judgment - however this does not keep him from trying to find a way to suppress these bodily experience and reach a pure cognitive state. Therefore, it might be said that disinterestedness is only possible in a pure and perfect sense of order; and at a base or primative level, this is not achievable due to our own limitations as subjective observers - In that, at some level there is a point where our own subjectivity plays a part in the act of judgment. Keith Snider __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 23 14:54:37 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA12732 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 14:54:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA32307 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 14:54:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id NAA20603 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:47:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id NAA20596 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:47:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA27185 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:47:42 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGUDUJVCW09AQSK3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:52:52 EST Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 13:52:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: disinterestedness & interpretation To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IGUDUJVGNM9AQSK3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: RO X-Status: With the benefit of hindsight we can now see that Stolnitz's work was crucial in a shift from subject-oriented aesthetics to object-centered aesthetics that occurred in the late 20th century. Beardsley was prescient in placing Stolnitz's work in a new tradition that might be called the General Theory of Interpretation ("A Short History", p. 345, 386). At the same time that Stolnitz's views were coming to widespread attention in the early 60's, Danto's views were also. The latter made explicit the question only implicit in Stolnitz's work, namely whether the aesthetic attitude is constitutive of the aesthetic object. Danto answered, "Not precisely; however, the aesthetic object is constituted by a historical-cultural tradition to which it belongs." This answer also falls under the general heading of interpretation, and by the 1990's it has become clear that it is one of the most widely accepted at present. This paragraph is obviously over-simplified. I am not pretending to do a great piece of scholarship -- only trying to address the original ques- tion raised by Linda, namely what Stolnitz said. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 23 20:55:38 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA15929 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 20:55:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA09863 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 20:55:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id TAA00007 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:43:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id TAA29996 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:43:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA26045 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:43:08 -0500 (EST) From: ICAPF@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id TAA13342 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:41:52 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 19:41:52 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970323194152_-1136088790@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ICAPF@aol.com Status: O X-Status: Subj: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Date: 03/23/97 To: mandoki@cueyatl.uam.mx There must be a difference between art and the ordinary (fine art and nature). When one looks at a work of art and has an aesthetic experience, it is an experience one "human being" is having from looking at an object or thing that was created by another "human being". Both "human beings" are of the same substance and nature. One can only assume that the creator had some sort of experience also when making the art work and put something of his or her own into the work, which is now deeply imbedded, intentionally or unintentionally into it's structural relationships. There must be some intention, aesthetic or not, or the work of fine art would have never been created. Wouldn't intention also have to be considered? And, wouldn't the subject of disinterestedness now have to be related to both the looker and the creator? What happens if the creator had no intention or unintentionally didn't put an aesthetic experience into the work and the looker still has an aesthetic experience while looking? Also, what if the creator specifically did not intent to an aesthetic experience of beauty, but something much to the contrary? When one looks at the ordinary and has an aesthetic experience, this experience comes from something created by whom? Or what? One would assume the nature and substance of the two beings are different and that the "human being" doesn't fully comprehend this other "being". But, maybe that is just what that experience of seeing the ordinary is about? For a small moment in time, the looker "is" able to understand the nature/substance of this "being," but only while looking or through a memory of looking? Could this be related to Kant's idea of purposiveness? Purposiveness, being something that is just beyond one's apprehension? So, could you not say that looking at art can create an aesthetic experience, while looking at the ordinary creates a sublime experience? Even if the creator had a sublime experience while looking at the ordinary and then translates this to the art piece which then creates an aesthetic experience for the looker of the fine art. This aesthetic experience helps the looker recreate a sublime experience, therefore, the aesthetic is secondary for the looker and the sublime is primary for the creator. A looker could also have a primary experience also, but would have to be looking at the ordinary and not fine art. The fine art is an imitation or interpretation of the ordinary (Aristotle's Poetics). They are not and can not be the same since each was created by beings different in nature and substance. While looking at fine art, one has an aesthetic experience that is an imitation or interpretation of the creater's own sublime or aesthetic experience. This could become even more complicative if the creator is trying to interpretate his or her own aesthetic experience. So, wouldn't the experience of looking at fine art always be different than the experience of looking at the ordinary? I. Capozzoli __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 23 22:29:19 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA12819 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:29:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA23421 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:29:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA26085 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:31:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA26059 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:31:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from cueyatl.uam.mx (cueyatl.uam.mx [148.206.100.11]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id VAA15257 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 21:31:48 -0500 (EST) Received: by cueyatl.uam.mx (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA19137; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 20:30:13 -0600 Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 20:30:13 -0600 (CST) From: Katya Mandoki X-Sender: mandoki@cueyatl To: ICAPF@aol.com Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: <970323194152_-1136088790@emout07.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Katya Mandoki Status: O X-Status: By ordinary I didn't mean Our Great & Sublime Mother Nature but the grilled scallions I cooked for lunch, with lemon, English sauce, olive oil, lots of red hot pepper and a few little things I'd rather keep as a secret. Ordinary yes, but made by my own two saintly hands. Kant would say "merely agreeable". I would insist: "Master, thou must absolutely taste them". Too hot and spicy to be agreeable, but definitely worth an aesthetic experience! As long as I keep myself on the guard & refrain from the temptation of intending these beautifully prepared scallions to be artistic, they will safely be kept in the realm of the ordinary. If this temptation wins over me, all my efforts will be in vain, and the scallions will automatically enter the realm of art. None of my guests showed the slightest disinterest in tasting these scallions. They all had the intention of enjoying their taste and were quite interested in getting their full share. The only one who genuinely manifested real disinterestedness was me, in putting such good stuff and with such precise proportions. I could have just boiled them and get it all over with. But I didn't. k. mandoki __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Mar 23 23:28:09 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id XAA15883 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA31824 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 23:28:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id WAA03596 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:28:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id WAA03589 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu (falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.201]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA20044 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:28:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from pbrand@localhost) by falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7/regexp($Revision: 1.3 $) id WAA20022; Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:28:17 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 23 Mar 1997 22:28:17 -0500 (EST) From: peg brand X-Sender: pbrand@falstaff.ucs.indiana.edu To: aesthetics@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: n.paradoxa Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: peg brand Status: O X-Status: FYI: http://web.ukonline.co.uk/members/n.paradoxa/index.htm N.Paradoxa is an international online feminist art journal that seeks to explore the paradoxes of feminism and the art world today. It is published quarterly and contains full-text articles, booklists & book reviews, information on women's arts organisations. Begun in December 1996, the first issue of N.Paradoxa included articles with titles such as: "Uncanny Resemblances: Restaging Claude Cahun in 'Mise en Scene'", "Gibt es Noch Themen in der Zeitgenoissischen Kunst? Und Welche interessieren Kunstlerinnen heute? -- Are there still themes in Contemporary Art? And if so,which are of interest to Women Artists Today?", and "Paint-Stripping: Feminist Possibilities in Painting After Modernism". The second issue of n.paradoxa - an online internet journal exploring the paradoxes between feminist theory and contemporary women's practice - is now out. This issue carries the four papers [by Katy Deepwell, Hilary Robinson, Cynthia Freeland and Shelley Hornstein] from the November 1996 Montreal ASA conference session entitled, "Feminism and Art: Some International Perspectives" organised by Peg Brand and Carolyn Korsmeyer. The editor of the journal, Katy Deepwell (author of NEW FEMINIST ART CRITICISM) can be reached at: 38 Bellot Street East Greenwich London SE10 OAQ England Tel/Fax 00 44 (0)181 858 3331 n.paradoxa http://web.ukonline.co.uk/members/n.paradoxa/index.htm __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 04:40:35 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id EAA19096 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 04:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA09595 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 04:40:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA08672 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 03:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA08665 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 03:22:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA30195 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 03:22:53 -0500 (EST) From: GJLEONARD@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id DAA11755; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 03:21:38 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 03:21:38 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970324032138_-771156514@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: CFreeland@UH.edu cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: "The Ancients" & Disinterest Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: GJLEONARD@aol.com Status: O X-Status: In one of the earliest canonical texts associated with the historical Buddha, the Noble Eightfold Path which he proposes contains, "Right rapture of concentration" defined as "when, divested of lusts and divested of wrong dispositions, an almsman develops, and dwells in, the first ecstasy with all its zest and satisfaction, a state bred of aloofness and not divorced from observation and reflection." (Majjhima-nikaya in Radhakrishnan and Moore, eds. Sourcebook in Indian philosophy, Princeton UP 1957 p 278). Schopenhauer long ago drew parallels between parts of Buddhism(s) and the 'aesthetic attitude' we've been discussing. I'll add this to Linda's mention of a similar strain in the Tao te Ching. (But not tao jiao, the later movement, filled with popular cures and magic.) Now let me add Cynthia's point about the Western artworld's uninterest in disinterestedness and the "aesthetic experience" until the amazingly late date of 1800; and some earlier comments made about Western religion's knowledge of the topic. Here's my own point: I think we have already agreed that for most of history, east and west, it would have been considered odd that we're talking about this particular human experience in an aesthetics list. That's a religious topic, most western and almost all eastern scholars would have said to us. Why does a topic from religion turn up in Western aesthetics after 1800-- and as a central topic? What comet hit Western culture that knocked "right rapture of contemplation" and so many religious topics into the arts, and elsewhere-- places where they often don't fit very well with earlier discourses? (And on into the familiar theme of Natural Supernaturalism.) I want to draw a different moral, though, from those usually drawn: Much Western aesthetics after 1800 is hard to discuss because forcing Western art to do religion's old jobs led to a lot of fudging and fiddling and tampering with the pre 1800 artworld's old terms. I hope Cynthia won't take this personally or wrong, but her inspiring reverence for the earth is deeply religious-- through what odd historical circumstances is someone like herself a professor of art, and not of religion? and why are Wordsworth and Carlyle and Ruskin and Emerson and Van Gogh, clear up to John Cage (who all set out to be ministers) Western artworld figures, instead of simply religious figures? The East, when it sticks to its own traditions, has no such difficulty as the post 1800 West, in discussing aesthetics. The pre 1800 West had no such difficulty. We have difficulty not because we've reached new levels of penetration but because, after 1800, figures who normally would have been religious invaded the arts and twisted the familiar terms around to satisfy new religious ends. Romanticism, Hulme rightly sneered, "is spilt religion." It's not we aestheticians' fault, if it's so hard to make sense of post 1800 art and its words. Xiu mu, as the Chinese proverb goes: you can't build with crooked wood. Modern aesthetics is something we have to "climb over," as Wittgenstein might say, something to recover from. The post 1800 artworld's not complex, it's confused, an unholy mess of pre1800 terms and post1800 religious aspirations which were forced to find a home in the arts, because dogmatic religion had a stranglehold on the churches. Danto is right. This last Western artworld is over. But I don't think Danto draws a radical enough conclusion. Walk away. Principally, let those of us who (like myself) have been using art as a "raft," in the Buddhist sense, a religious vehicle, recall Buddha's question, "If a raft took you to the other shore, should you then, in gratitude, carry it on your back as you walk on?" John Cage and Allan Kaprow went off to religion, and those are pretty perceptive people. If you stayed home in the arts you had to go to the Whitney Biennials, a far worse fate. Really, it's over. With best to all, George J. Leonard Prof. of Interdisciplinary Humanities San Francisco State University. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 11:12:56 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA23072 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:12:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA15029 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:12:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id JAA22465 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:00:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id JAA22456 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:00:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA27114 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 09:00:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA21879; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 06:00:10 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 06:00:09 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: GJLEONARD@aol.com cc: CFreeland@UH.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: "The Ancients" & Disinterest In-Reply-To: <970324032138_-771156514@emout11.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: I think George Leonard is right. The religious derivation of modern lit crit, with its emphasis on deep meaning rather than pleasure, is outlined in "Flight from Eden" [authro escapes me for now], and the religious rhetoric of lit crit is analysed in Fahenstock and Secor [in Bazerman's Textual Dynamics of the Professionals]. One person who held out against all this [and to some extent analysed it in the section on "The Mystic Line"] is Francis Sparshott. One might account a bit for the relative neglect of The Theory of the Arts is that it sticks to the classical through thick and thin and makes no bows to the muddles introduced by the religion of art, which is what Terry Eagleton [more orless] goes after in The Ideology of the Aesthetic. And I also agree that much religious feeling is now attacjed to the environment [nature as it was once called] and that is why the aesthetics has migrated there as well. But isn't Danto's "end of art" better understood as end of teh aesthetic, for as I recall , he makesit clear that this by no means means the end of arts [plural], which takes us back to Sparshott. Maybe it is enough to say we will speak in the plural, which is a little less extreme than walking away. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 11:11:56 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA23018 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:11:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA30745 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:11:55 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id IAA22238 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:54:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id IAA22230 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:54:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from oak.cc.swarthmore.edu (root@oak.cc.swarthmore.edu [130.58.64.20]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA27298 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:53:59 -0500 (EST) From: reldrid1@swarthmore.edu Received: from [130.58.73.51] (mac01.papazian1.swarthmore.edu [130.58.73.51]) by oak.cc.swarthmore.edu with SMTP id IAA09375 Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:53:56 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199703241353.IAA09375@oak.cc.swarthmore.edu> X-Mailer: Eudora 1.3.1+Swarthmore Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:29:35 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness---what's over? Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: reldrid1@swarthmore.edu Status: O X-Status: I find George Leonard's analysis of the odd mix of post-1800 art with pre-1800 religion to be quite perceptive and to have much to do with our current uncertainties about how to make sense of (what seems to be) the special kind of attention that some works of art solicit from us and support. (It's not uninterested, but it's not a possession interest either.) I further agree that something is over, but I'm not quite sure what it is that's over, and I'm not quite sure where he wishes us to go. One thing that may be over is the centrality or even the prominent role of painting in artistic imagination and practice. (The Whitney Biennials are dreary.) But it seems to me that the performing or allographic arts are not in such bad shape. We are living in the 20th century in age of monumental musical composition. I have in mind not only Schoenberg, Stravinsky, Shostakovich, etc. but also more recent figures, such as Olivier Messiaen. I heard a transcendent performance two nights ago of his "Vingts Regards sur L'Infant Jesu" (1990). The audience was left unable to speak, in an attitude that I would hesitate to characterize as either purely aesthetic (the piece is deeply religiously motivated) or purely religious (it didn't have much to do with theology, and one had to have the music). A whole host of younger composers is also pursuing means of nontraditional cadencing (via rhythm and dynamics and modal coincidence, for example, rather than good old harmonic I-V-I), with considerable success. And there are interesting things going on in poetry (Language poets such as Clark Coolidge or Robert Creeley), in short story writing (Ralph Lombreglia, especially, and Raymond Carver was no slouch), and in the novel (Pynchon). In quite different ways, in each of these media we see works that solicit and support (what Michael Fried used to call) absorption: a kind of rapt attentiveness that gives even a sense of a possible orientation of human powers in perception---a quasi-religious experience, but not connected essentially with any dogma. The moral is that this post-1800 vein of artistic work is not, I think, as fully played out as George suggests (even if painting is, at the moment, dreary). Best wishes, Richard Richard Eldridge Philosophy Swarthmore College __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 13:42:38 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA26538 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA08740 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:42:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id LAA13177 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:28:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id LAA13141 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:28:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA26537 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 11:28:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA28890; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:28:39 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 08:28:39 -0800 (PST) From: { brad brace } To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: aesthetics:disinterestedness In-Reply-To: <333339C3.5B2A@post.tau.ac.il> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: "One must be disinterested, accept that a sound is a sound and a man is a man, give up illusions about ideas of order, expressions of sentiment, and all the rest of our inherited aesthetic claptrap." -- john cage -- -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 14:53:03 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id OAA28413 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:53:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA25858 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 14:53:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id MAA24897 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:28:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id MAA24885 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:28:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id MAA08516 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 12:28:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 97 11:28:25 -0600 Received: from x94-245-180.ejack.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 97 11:28:25 -0600 From: "Romain Gril" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Aesthetic Disinterest Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.5 Message-Id: <3336b9b95d17003@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 97 11:28:26 -0600 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Romain Gril" Status: O X-Status: Linda, I have been wondering about the question of nature's value beside that which we human beings attribute to it. It seems to me that an approach of this question would require taking into consideration the ontological theory of the person speaking. I mean that I guess that for a Christian nature will have quite a different significance from that it would have for, say, a buddhist. Now I am a virulent atheist, and I do not consider anything to have any sort of (moral or aesthetic) value before the humans begin to introduce such values into the world. I am pretty sure that if the world is as it is, well it is because it just happened to be like that. I am not sure that speaking of "intrinsic value" of anything natural is not making a leap from one domain of experience to another, and in particular from the aesthetic to the moral. I personally find nature wonderful, and I grieve that it is undergoing all what happens to it. But on the other hand it seems to me that, were there no human beings here, nature would have no value of its own--it would just be, but no one would even be there to notice it. Of course I do not mean to disapprove of attempts to respect nature; but I do not see that the worth of such respect is not tied to our own interest, or to our own aesthetic satisfaction, which is subjective pleasure. Perhaps the aesthetic, indeed, would constitute the most 'disinterested' way to consider the preservation of nature, but the aesthetic is nevertheless dependent on the human. So my question would be, Where do you ground what you take to be the intrinsic qualities of nature? Romain Gril __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 15:47:38 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA30110 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA07211 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:47:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id NAA27947 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:41:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id NAA27940 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:41:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from f18.hotmail.com ([207.82.250.29]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA16653 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 13:41:40 -0500 (EST) Received: (from root@localhost) by f18.hotmail.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA01789; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:39:32 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:39:32 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199703241839.KAA01789@f18.hotmail.com> Received: from 134.117.1.98 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 10:39:31 PST X-Originating-IP: [134.117.1.98] From: " Earl Cochrane" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: address change Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: " Earl Cochrane" Status: O X-Status: My address has changed to dickspanner@hotmail.com . I would still like to be on the aesthetics mailing list. Thank you. Earl Cochrane Ottawa Canada --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 17:23:58 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA03154 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:23:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA23509 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:23:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id PAA02425 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:31:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id PAA02418 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:31:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.97]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA18704 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:31:38 -0500 (EST) From: ICAPF@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA00761; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:30:14 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 15:30:14 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970324153014_1749583539@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu cc: mandoki@cueyatl.uam.mx Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ICAPF@aol.com Status: O X-Status: In responce to k. mandoki Yes, what you said is very true! But, who created the scallion? Isn't a scallion like a tree created by what you called "Our Great & Sublime Mother Nature?" To have an sublime experience is to appreciate the onion in its pure form, look at it's shape and color, feel it's form and texture, smell its aroma and taste its bitter quality. When the scallion is chopped and combined with lemon, olive oil, red hot pepper and secret ingredients, you changing it from it's pure form to another state (Arnheim's Entropy and Art). You are now taking the scallion which has inspired you in some way, (maybe it's taste or your hunger) and combining it with other tastes and textures, aromas, etc. in different proportions at a different temperature and creating something that could become an aesthetic taste experience, hence cooking becomes a fine art. If you just boil the scallion, you have manipulated it so it is no longer in its pure form, but it still could become an aesthetic taste experience. But, if you taste the scallion in its pure form, what kind of taste experience is it then, aesthetic or sublime? In which would you or the guest be disinterested? To one what is "merely agreeable" could be an aesthetic experience for another, or not? How is this any different than a tree which is cut, cured, carved, stained and then displayed by a sculptor who makes a work of fine art? Isn't the experience of looking a tree in its pure form different from looking at a wood sculpture? I. Capozzoli ICAPF@juno.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 20:14:58 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id UAA07275 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:14:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA20028 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:14:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id TAA10214 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:01:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id TAA10207 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:01:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout10.mail.aol.com (emout10.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.25]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA17098 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 19:01:02 -0500 (EST) From: ChCross@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout10.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id SAA26539 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:59:46 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:59:46 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970324185738_-1236629579@emout10.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterest: Kant, Schopenhauer, Schoenberg Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ChCross@aol.com Status: O X-Status: My interest in aesthetics was initially sparked by my studies of Schoenberg's music theories, which contain many philosophical and aesthetic ideas. For those who may not be aware of this, Kant and Schopenhauer were among the main philosophical influences upon Schoenberg. Since I am not primarily as aesthetician or a philosopher, I cannot claim to know precisely why the notion of disinterest is sometimes not taken seriously. It does seem to me, however, that very often we use our own experience of art as the gauge for determining our position towards the idea of "disinterest." Why don't we take the statements of artists themselves seriously as evidence for our arguments? In 1909, Schoenberg wrote a letter to Gustav Mahler about his experience in hearing Mahler's Seventh Symphony for the first time. He described his response as follows: "I had less sense than previously of something extraordinarily sensational, something that immensely excites and works one up, something, in short, that moves the listener in such a way as to make him lose his balance without giving him another in exchange. What I felt this time was a perfect repose based on artistic harmony. Something that moves me without just ruthlessly shifting my centre of gravity; something that draws me tranquilly and pleasantly to itself--an attraction such as guides the planets, letting them travel along their own courses, influencing these, yes, but so evenly, so entirely according to plan, that there is no longer any jarring, any violence. . . . I reacted to you . . . without any outward excitement at all! In tranquility and calm, as one does after all, enjoy a thing of beauty! While previously. . . there were some elements of artistic struggle involved; personal elements; outward ones, aesthetic details; questions of instrumentation; this time there was absolutely none of all that!" [Arnold Schoenberg, _Letters_, trans. Erwin Stein and Eithne Wilkins (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1965], 293] Schoenberg made these remarks after more than a decade of encounters with Mahler's music. During that decade, he gradually moved from reacting to Mahler's works with an intense "physical excitement" while still judging them to be aesthetically defective to the unbounded admiration expressed in the letter quoted above. I read into his description that he has risen above any personal factors that might interfere with the experience and achieved either the "disinterested" state described by Kant or the state of rising above his personal will that is closer to Schopenhauer. By referring to "artistic harmony," he definitely seems to recognize the experience as set apart from both ordinary experience and any personal interests. Why would a statement such as this one by one of the most important musicians of the twentieth century not be considered important evidence to support the claims of Kant and Schopenhauer about the aesthetic experience? Sincerely yours, Charlotte M. Cross (Ph.D., Columbia University) __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 18:36:32 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA04902 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:36:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA22457 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 18:36:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id RAA07219 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:30:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id RAA07208 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:29:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from post.tau.ac.il (post.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.11]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA26286 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 17:29:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from 9.tau.ac.il (ppp8-2.tau.ac.il [132.66.250.82]) by post.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id BAA04438 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:30:09 +0300 (IDT) Message-ID: <33370E50.3C63@post.tau.ac.il> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:29:20 +0200 From: igal dotan X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: aesthetics:disiterestedness References: <333339C3.5B2A@post.tau.ac.il> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: igal dotan Status: O X-Status: >Since my privious e-mail has been rejected, as of many others recently, Im resenting it and apologise in advance before those who have already got it. > A few remaerks concerning Kant's notion of disinteretedness; > Let us distinguish Kant's theory of Beauty from his theory of fine art > and artistic evaluation. > 1. Kant awere of the fact that artworks are never devoided of human > intersts. > 2. When he discusses Beauty, he assert that pure beauty can be found > whitin nature only. > 3. Disinterested attitude towerds an object can take place only in > nature. > 4. When we come to appriciate an artwork we may do it aestheticaly but > not necessarily. Aesthetic judgments, as they are, consist of pure > beauty characters such as FORM or inner organization, whereas aesthetic > judgments of artworks can be mixed with sensual pleasure or interests. > Naturally, we cant ignore those components which are not pure in > aesthetic sense, but we must'nt established our (easthetic) judgments on > them; they are simply irrelevant for that purpose. > 5. We may come to think that kant represents us with a kind of > formalism. Well he does, but not such as bell's or fry's formalism. > Kant's formalism, if I may relate his aesthetics to that sort of > thinking, isn't restricted to the visul art and music (as that of his > followers does), but can be appleid to any form of art. Now the reason > Im saying that is that, according to Kant, in aesthetic judgment we > concern ourself not with the object form directly but through the > harmonic play of imagination and understanding. > In order to clarify this problematic point, let me adress you to a very > common but still anigmatic creature - the METAPHORE (M). What really > striks us with M is it's schizoid nature. On the one hand, M's has a > simple and common logical structure i.e 'A is B'; on the othr hand A and > B are'nt synonyms, nor they belong to the the same semantic field in > "ordinary" language. Moreover, any attemp to paraphrase a M is doomed to > fail - we simply can't express it's meaning by using an alternative pair > of words, or by replacing one of them in order to have a different > expression with the same meaning - we need more then a few words to do > so properly. > Now, when we try to describe it's cognitive charcters we may think of > (and that what we usually do) a stream of associations which are "bound" > to each other by a wide or fuzzy framework, which is yet not an > arbitrary one. In other words, we can grasp the meaning but we can't fix > it as a concept or as a simple expression as we do with ordinary 'A is > B' form. > Kant's formalism could be reffer to this sort of cognitive mode i.e, an > ongoing flow of association, given by the imagination and directed by > understanding without being fixed to become an object; namely, there is > no one and unified concept that could be establishd on such a > multiplicity: there is no final purpose. > This version of formalism can be applied to poetry as well as to prose > and other litterary arts. > 6. In aggriable beauty we tend to ignore that aspect of aesthetic > attitude and prefer that of sensual pleasure. On the othr hand, when > judging exquisite works of art, we are able to overcome the aggreable > and concentraete ourself on pure beauty; i.e we feel how the object is > stimulating our faculties without locking them. > In that sense interests can interfere with aesthetic experience, but > are neithr a negative sufficint nor their absence is nessesary, for > aesthetic judgments (in art criticism).We can do well with them or > without them, it's all depend on our skills and on the artwork quality. > > Igal dotan > department of philosophy: TEL AVIV UN; ISRAEL. > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Mar 24 22:24:25 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id WAA08929 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA03993 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id VAA14493 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:26:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id VAA14476 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:26:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bayou.UH.EDU (root@Bayou.UH.EDU [129.7.1.7]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA24672 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 21:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.91.144.81] (kbender.nol.net [207.91.144.81]) by Bayou.UH.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA26717 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:25:01 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 20:25:01 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Dreariness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Status: O X-Status: Earlier today, Richard Eldridge wrote: >One thing that may be over is the centrality or even the prominent role of >painting in artistic imagination and practice. (The Whitney Biennials are >dreary.) But it seems to me that the performing or allographic arts are >not in such bad shape. We are living in the 20th century in age of >monumental musical composition. I have in mind not only Schoenberg, >Stravinsky, Shostakovich, etc. but also more recent figures, such as >Olivier Messiaen. I heard a transcendent performance two nights ago of his >"Vingts Regards sur L'Infant Jesu" (1990). Richard, Can this really be the right date for this Messiaen piece? What was the date of Messiaen's death? I don't have any refs. handy. I too have heard it and no one could be a bigger Messiaen fan than myself. But even though he lived past them, I'd still classify him as a contemporary of post-WWII masters of the grand gesture in painting from (whomever) Rothko to Pollock etc. However the real point of my post is to say there is hope about the Whitney Biennial--I just heard that Shazia Sikander will be in it--her work is fantastic! She does Indian miniature paintings with handmade paper and they are unbelievably detailed and exquisite. They depict contemporary scenes and combine ancient mythological themes with modern issues. They are truly beautiful jewel-like items and real feats of technical prowess. (I am only kicking myself that I did not buy one last spring when she was an unknown artist at a gallery here in Houston and I thought the price of $600 was too high.) Cynthia Freeland CFreeland@UH.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 01:18:48 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id BAA10437 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:18:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA26244 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:18:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id AAA18278 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:18:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id AAA18271 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com (emout06.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.97]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA01702 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:18:18 -0500 (EST) From: ChCross@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id AAA25093 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:17:02 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:17:02 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970325001701_1815785191@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterest: Kant, Schopenhauer, Schoenberg Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ChCross@aol.com Status: O X-Status: My interest in aesthetics was initially sparked by my studies of Schoenberg's music theories, which contain many philosophical and aesthetic ideas. For those who may not be aware of this, Kant and Schopenhauer were among the main philosophical influences upon Schoenberg. Since I am not primarily as aesthetician or a philosopher, I do not feel very qualified to enter into this discussion. It seems to me, however, that often notions such as Kant's notion of disinterest is sometimes dismissed too quickly as not the way in which art is really experienced. It also seems to me that very often we use our own experience of art as the gauge for determining our position towards the idea of "disinterest." Why don't we take the statements of artists themselves seriously as evidence for our arguments? In 1909, Schoenberg wrote a letter to Gustav Mahler about his experience in hearing Mahler's Seventh Symphony for the first time. He described his response as follows: "I had less sense than previously of something extraordinarily sensational, something that immensely excites and works one up, something, in short, that moves the listener in such a way as to make him lose his balance without giving him another in exchange. What I felt this time was a perfect repose based on artistic harmony. Something that moves me without just ruthlessly shifting my centre of gravity; something that draws me tranquilly and pleasantly to itself--an attraction such as guides the planets, letting them travel along their own courses, influencing these, yes, but so evenly, so entirely according to plan, that there is no longer any jarring, any violence. . . . I reacted to you . . . without any outward excitement at all! In tranquility and calm, as one does after all, enjoy a thing of beauty! While previously. . . there were some elements of artistic struggle involved; personal elements; outward ones, aesthetic details; questions of instrumentation; this time there was absolutely none of all that!" [Arnold Schoenberg, _Letters_, trans. Erwin Stein and Eithne Wilkins (New York: St. Martin's Press, 1965], 293] Schoenberg made these remarks after more than a decade of encounters with Mahler's music. During that decade, he gradually moved from reacting to Mahler's works with an intense "physical excitement" while still judging them to be aesthetically defective to the unbounded admiration expressed in the letter quoted above. I read into his description that he has risen above any personal factors that might interfere with the experience and achieved either the "disinterested" state described by Kant or the state of rising above his personal will that is closer to Schopenhauer. By referring to "artistic harmony," he definitely seems to recognize the experience as set apart from both ordinary experience and any personal interests. Why would a statement such as this one by one of the most important musicians of the twentieth century not be considered important evidence to support the claims of Kant and Schopenhauer about the aesthetic experience? Sincerely, Charlotte Cross __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 02:15:00 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id CAA10852 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 02:14:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA14722 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 02:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id BAA19289 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:25:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id BAA19282 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:25:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from SEMOVM.SEMO.EDU (semovm.semo.edu [150.201.1.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with SMTP id BAA09038 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from SEMOVM by SEMOVM.SEMO.EDU (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with BSMTP id 3071; Tue, 25 Mar 97 00:22:31 CST Message-Id: <25MAR97.00405253.0071.MUSIC@SEMOVM> Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:22:30 CST From: "Albert W. Hayward C863HUP@SEMOVM.SEMO.EDU" To: Subject: Aesthetics: Messiaen's Vingt-Regards (1944) X-Mailer: MUSIC/SP V5.1.0 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Albert W. Hayward C863HUP@SEMOVM.SEMO.EDU" Status: O X-Status: The liner notes on my recording of two of the pieces from the piano suite Vingt-Regards sur l'Enfant Jesus give the date of its composition as 1944. Perhaps Eldridge heard a later revision or an orchestration of this work. There is much to discover in Messiaen, from his early meditative and devotional organ pieces to his middle-period oriental- influenced works (e.g. Turangalila), to his late experiments with orchestral color and sonority, almost all on religious themes (e.g. the apocalyptic "Et Expecto Resurrectionem Mortuorum"). Send me a cheese, that I may dine sumptuously. Albert Hayward Southeast Missouri State University __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 05:19:01 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA11509 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA07255 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA20880 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA20873 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA07720 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:48:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante14.u.washington.edu (dante14.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.40]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id AAA11186; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:42:33 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante14.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id AAA14882; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:48:20 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:48:19 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: ChCross@aol.com cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest: Kant, Schopenhauer, Schoenberg In-Reply-To: <970324185738_-1236629579@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Question: If this letter describes "disinterest" why is it not disinterested? It has an awful lot of exclamation points... The syntax is almost impetuous, as if the speaker was running as they wrote it, jumping up and down even. As for the physical: physical response includes arousal and de-arousal. Repose sounds quite physical to me... Lack of outward excitement means the body is not moving, gesturing, etc., that the body is still. If the body is not moving it does not disappear. The body, the physical persists, but the rhetoric surrounding its participation can only understand and communicate it negatively. _________________________________ Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English University of Washington, Seattle jtate@u.washington.edu On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 ChCross@aol.com wrote: > My interest in aesthetics was initially sparked by my studies of Schoenberg's > music theories, which contain many philosophical and aesthetic ideas. For > those who may not be aware of this, Kant and Schopenhauer were among the main > philosophical influences upon Schoenberg. > > Since I am not primarily as aesthetician or a philosopher, I cannot claim to > know precisely why the notion of disinterest is sometimes not taken > seriously. It does seem to me, however, that very often we use our own > experience of art as the gauge for determining our position towards the idea > of "disinterest." Why don't we take the statements of artists themselves > seriously as evidence for our arguments? > > In 1909, Schoenberg wrote a letter to Gustav Mahler about his experience in > hearing Mahler's Seventh Symphony for the first time. He described his > response as follows: > "I had less sense than previously of something extraordinarily sensational, > something that immensely excites and works one up, something, in short, that > moves the listener in such a way as to make him lose his balance without > giving him another in exchange. What I felt this time was a perfect repose > based on artistic harmony. Something that moves me without just ruthlessly > shifting my centre of gravity; something that draws me tranquilly and > pleasantly to itself--an attraction such as guides the planets, letting them > travel along their own courses, influencing these, yes, but so evenly, so > entirely according to plan, that there is no longer any jarring, any > violence. . . . I reacted to you . . . without any outward excitement at all! > In tranquility and calm, as one does after all, enjoy a thing of beauty! > While previously. . . there were some elements of artistic struggle > involved; personal elements; outward ones, aesthetic details; questions of > instrumentation; this time there was absolutely none of all that!" [Arnold > Schoenberg, _Letters_, trans. Erwin Stein and Eithne Wilkins (New York: > St. Martin's Press, 1965], 293] > > Schoenberg made these remarks after more than a decade of encounters with > Mahler's music. During that decade, he gradually moved from reacting to > Mahler's works with an intense "physical excitement" while still judging them > to be aesthetically defective to the unbounded admiration expressed in the > letter quoted above. I read into his description that he has risen above any > personal factors that might interfere with the experience and achieved either > the "disinterested" state described by Kant or the state of rising above his > personal will that is closer to Schopenhauer. By referring to "artistic > harmony," he definitely seems to recognize the experience as set apart from > both ordinary experience and any personal interests. > > Why would a statement such as this one by one of the most important musicians > of the twentieth century not be considered important evidence to support the > claims of Kant and Schopenhauer about the aesthetic experience? > > Sincerely yours, > Charlotte M. Cross > (Ph.D., Columbia University) > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 05:19:01 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA11509 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:19:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA07255 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:19:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id DAA20880 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id DAA20873 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:48:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA07720 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 03:48:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante14.u.washington.edu (dante14.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.40]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id AAA11186; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:42:33 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante14.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id AAA14882; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:48:20 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 00:48:19 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: ChCross@aol.com cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest: Kant, Schopenhauer, Schoenberg In-Reply-To: <970324185738_-1236629579@emout10.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: D Question: If this letter describes "disinterest" why is it not disinterested? It has an awful lot of exclamation points... The syntax is almost impetuous, as if the speaker was running as they wrote it, jumping up and down even. As for the physical: physical response includes arousal and de-arousal. Repose sounds quite physical to me... Lack of outward excitement means the body is not moving, gesturing, etc., that the body is still. If the body is not moving it does not disappear. The body, the physical persists, but the rhetoric surrounding its participation can only understand and communicate it negatively. _________________________________ Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English University of Washington, Seattle jtate@u.washington.edu On Mon, 24 Mar 1997 ChCross@aol.com wrote: > My interest in aesthetics was initially sparked by my studies of Schoenberg's > music theories, which contain many philosophical and aesthetic ideas. For > those who may not be aware of this, Kant and Schopenhauer were among the main > philosophical influences upon Schoenberg. > > Since I am not primarily as aesthetician or a philosopher, I cannot claim to > know precisely why the notion of disinterest is sometimes not taken > seriously. It does seem to me, however, that very often we use our own > experience of art as the gauge for determining our position towards the idea > of "disinterest." Why don't we take the statements of artists themselves > seriously as evidence for our arguments? > > In 1909, Schoenberg wrote a letter to Gustav Mahler about his experience in > hearing Mahler's Seventh Symphony for the first time. He described his > response as follows: > "I had less sense than previously of something extraordinarily sensational, > something that immensely excites and works one up, something, in short, that > moves the listener in such a way as to make him lose his balance without > giving him another in exchange. What I felt this time was a perfect repose > based on artistic harmony. Something that moves me without just ruthlessly > shifting my centre of gravity; something that draws me tranquilly and > pleasantly to itself--an attraction such as guides the planets, letting them > travel along their own courses, influencing these, yes, but so evenly, so > entirely according to plan, that there is no longer any jarring, any > violence. . . . I reacted to you . . . without any outward excitement at all! > In tranquility and calm, as one does after all, enjoy a thing of beauty! > While previously. . . there were some elements of artistic struggle > involved; personal elements; outward ones, aesthetic details; questions of > instrumentation; this time there was absolutely none of all that!" [Arnold > Schoenberg, _Letters_, trans. Erwin Stein and Eithne Wilkins (New York: > St. Martin's Press, 1965], 293] > > Schoenberg made these remarks after more than a decade of encounters with > Mahler's music. During that decade, he gradually moved from reacting to > Mahler's works with an intense "physical excitement" while still judging them > to be aesthetically defective to the unbounded admiration expressed in the > letter quoted above. I read into his description that he has risen above any > personal factors that might interfere with the experience and achieved either > the "disinterested" state described by Kant or the state of rising above his > personal will that is closer to Schopenhauer. By referring to "artistic > harmony," he definitely seems to recognize the experience as set apart from > both ordinary experience and any personal interests. > > Why would a statement such as this one by one of the most important musicians > of the twentieth century not be considered important evidence to support the > claims of Kant and Schopenhauer about the aesthetic experience? > > Sincerely yours, > Charlotte M. Cross > (Ph.D., Columbia University) > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 05:34:12 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id FAA09410 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:34:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA21599 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 05:34:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id EAA21116 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:32:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id EAA21109 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA10291 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:32:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante14.u.washington.edu (dante14.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.40]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id BAA11686; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:27:43 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante14.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id BAA14110; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:32:53 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:32:53 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: "Cynthia A. Freeland" cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: "The Ancients" & Disinterest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Sorry this is belated. In response to Cynthia Freeland: > > I just don't think that it is true to say that "ancient writers...tend to > disavow the body as the cause or source of aesthetic experience." The > first thing to say is that the ancients just don't have the notion of > "aesthetic experience" like that developed since the 18th century. You > won't find anything like this, to my knowledge, in any presocratics or in > anyone up well into the Hellenistic period. I agree. I've been too busy pointing out the authors that imprecate the body, I haven't had a chance to point to those that allow for it's participation. In a previous post I mentioned Horace only briefly, and I suppose that was missed. The appropriate response for Horace is most often rendered in physiological terms. The audience is depicted as laughing, crying, even falling asleep. The poet is able to induce these responses, only if s/he has felt them as well. Felt them, not intellectualized or contemplated--FELT! Experienced. Your response is full of examples of "ancients" (which as I have also said, I hesitate to lump together so loosely) that allow the body to play a role in the aesthetic. So, in that sense, the ancients do not consistently disavow the body's role in aesthetic experience, as you've shown. More modern writers allow for the body's role, and their contributions have been overlooked. Joseph Addison agrees with Francis Bacon that "the pleasures of the fancy are more conducive to health than those of the understanding ... Delightful scenes, whether in nature, painting or poetry, have a kindly influence on the body..." The sublime for Edmund Burke lies in sensation itself, not in retrospective contemplation or the "disagreeable yoke of our reason..." Hume talks of the "internal organs" and their defects that obscure taste. Admittedly, Hume says: "Beauty ... exists merely in the mind which contemplates [it]" but that "beauty" cannot truly exist if the internal organs are imperfectly exercised! Hume doesn't give the body all the credit, that's certain, but it has a definite role. > What do you mean by your question? WHat exactly is it you want to give the > body so much credit for? I don't think the body deserves all the credit. I don't think the mind deserves all the credit either. I'm in literary studies, which might explain much of my displeasure with disinterest. Most current literary criticism leaves no room for the body to be discussed--certainly the socially constructed body is discussed everywhere! but the physiologic body has been left in the dust. Poetry, for example, as some critics have noticed (Roman Jakobson's "nonsemantic", Derek Attridge's "affective function of meter", Amittai Aviram's theory of "telling rhythm", Julia Kristeva's -semiotic-, etc.) the nonverbal and the bodily play just as important of a role in poetic "meaning" as do the semantic elements, ie, the message, theme or information. These critics notice that something takes place at a level beyond, below or even above the semantic, and that nonsemantic realm is occupied by the physical body engaging with that nonsemantic-ness and thus engaged with itself. I'll save the list my from my literary theory, but this is the background I am working from on this question. Although I mention a few critics above that deal with the notion, the ideas these critics represent are far from mainstream at the moment. Current literary study most often involves the autopsy of a deadened text, dismembered of its appeal to the body. The "musical" elements of poetry are often ignored if not only treated marginally. Edward Said, for example, can explain why Yeats was political, but can't explain why Yeats sang his poetry, but was still political. The distinction I make between the body and mind in aesthetics may be a "modern one" as you say, or even post-modern, or what have you, but simply because the texts of the ancients do not announce themselves as texts on the mind and body does not mean they do not treat the subject in some way. To get on my soap box again, many literary theories never get applied to literature--are they literary theory? Jody Tate U. of Washington, Seattle __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 06:18:19 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id GAA11740 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 06:18:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA04050 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 06:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id EAA21233 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:58:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id EAA21226 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason04.u.washington.edu (jason04.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA11004 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 04:58:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante14.u.washington.edu (dante14.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.40]) by jason04.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id BAA11650; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:52:52 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante14.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id BAA23944; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:58:03 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 01:58:03 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Keith Snider cc: Aesthetics Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: I'm sorry I haven't responded to this posting sooner. I agree completely with Keith's idea. The body is there in Kant, much in the same way as it is in Addison's notions of pain and terror. Only after we watch a frightening scene do we have an aesthetic experience, only after, when we realize our body is still intact! I would argue that Kant is concerned with the body in that regard: We see the elephants charging, but if that herd gets too close, too close to our body, then it is not sublime because the fight or flight response mechanism takes over and we must move, physically move, not intellectually. Yet, at the same time, this does not exclude the notion of physical "disinterest" as I've talked about it, and as Keith agrees. _________________________________ Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English University of Washington, Seattle jtate@u.washington.edu On Sun, 23 Mar 1997, Keith Snider wrote: > > From the statements of Joseph Tate: > > We can debate whether Kant is describing a purely cognitive > >disinterest until the cows come home. But it seems fairly certain that the > >body has no investment in the aesthetic experience for Kant, that the body > >is what needs to be disinterested, not the mind. > > > Before the Kantian discussion disappears - J. Tate has asked the question > several times - what is the role of the body in aesthetic judgment? I would > like to look at this problem and by doing so I believe it might be possible > to understand the difference between the practical and the pure by looking > at what he says about the sublime. > > Looking at Kant's disinterested subject - I would see this as an ideal > situation that must be the goal of all judgments, and while it would be > nice to reach this cognitive state, at some point, I think even Kant would > say that this ideal would fail. I want to say this because of the way he > defines the sublime as a loss of order (some terrible event or something > without form that can be pleasurable at a safe distance away from the > observing subject). That a stampede of elephants at a safe distance can > bring to the observing subject pleasure. However, if this chaotic event > comes too close to the observer, and threatens the observer, then the > sublime turns from beauty to horror and fear. Now, at the point where this > loss of order crosses the threshold from pleasure to fear, could we say > what is being transgressed is that last sense of order that we all have - > our body? Therefore, there is beauty in the terrible as long as we feel > safe and our own sense of order is not threatened. The idea that a subject > can be disinterested while making judgments is true only if one's own > personal interest is not threatened; and finally it seems that while Kant > is attempting to remove the interested body from the act of judgment - > there is a point where he can't - and at that point, Kant is recognizing > that the concept of the disinterested subject will fail. (what Paul Murphy > writes as a lower rung experience) Due to this, it seems Kant concedes that > there is a point where the body has an investment in the act of judgment - > however this does not keep him from trying to find a way to suppress these > bodily experience and reach a pure cognitive state. Therefore, it might be > said that disinterestedness is only possible in a pure and perfect sense of > order; and at a base or primative level, this is not achievable due to our > own limitations as subjective observers - In that, at some level there is a > point where our own subjectivity plays a part in the act of judgment. > > Keith Snider > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 08:19:03 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id IAA12368 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 08:19:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA11909 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 08:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) id GAA21954 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 06:46:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.1skh) with ESMTP id GAA21947 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 06:46:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.enterprise.net (root@mail.enterprise.net [194.72.192.20]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA14075 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 06:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.72.195.50] ([194.72.196.219]) by mail.enterprise.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA07283 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:47:07 GMT X-Sender: gjg@mail.enterprise.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:47:14 +0000 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Dreariness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Status: O X-Status: >Richard, Can this really be the right date for this Messiaen piece? What >was the date of Messiaen's death? 28th April 1992. Your dating of the (revised) VR is pretty much correct. Peter Hill's recording of it (unicorn) was in 1991. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Rev'd Gordon Giles, Treasurer, Christians on the Internet (COIN) Church of the Good Shepherd,19, Hurrell Road, Cambridge, CB4 3RQ (+44] 01223) 464348 ---------------------- http://homepages.enterprise.net/gjg __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 11:06:35 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15664 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA00953 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:06:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA01062 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:23:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA01010 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:23:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from midget.towson.edu (wheeler@midget.towson.edu [204.62.32.167]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA26927 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:23:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from wheeler@localhost) by midget.towson.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA14591; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:24:08 -0500 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:24:08 -0500 (EST) From: Darrell Wheeler To: "J. Tate" cc: ChCross@aol.com, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest: Kant, Schopenhauer, Schoenberg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Darrell Wheeler Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, J. Tate wrote: > > Question: If this letter describes "disinterest" why is it not > disinterested? It has an awful lot of exclamation points... The syntax is > almost impetuous, as if the speaker was running as they wrote it, jumping > up and down even. This letter was originally written in German, I take it. German style allows for a much more "impetuous" syntax than does English. In fact, it does not just allow for it, it is part of acceptable German syntax. So, the syntactical evidence you note against the letter's disinterestedness is not that persuasive. > > As for the physical: physical response includes arousal and de-arousal. Repose > sounds quite physical to me... Lack of outward excitement means the body > is not moving, gesturing, etc., that the body is still. If the body is not > moving it does not disappear. Can you explain what you would count as the disappearance of the body? > > The body, the physical persists, but the rhetoric surrounding its > participation can only understand and communicate it negatively. > I wouldn't mind an explanation of this either. Darrell Wheeler PS I did not join this thread because it interested me; I just found it aesthetically pleasing. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 11:06:30 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id LAA15661 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:06:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA07851 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:06:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA02199 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA02192 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:45:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.enterprise.net (root@mail.enterprise.net [194.72.192.20]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA08680 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:45:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.72.196.53] (ppp307.enterprise.net [194.72.196.53]) by mail.enterprise.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA27196 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:45:56 GMT X-Sender: gjg@mail.enterprise.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:46:02 +0000 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Status: O X-Status: >Richard, Can this really be the right date for this Messiaen piece? What >was the date of Messiaen's death? 28th April 1992. Your dating of the (revised) VR is pretty much correct. Peter Hill's recording of it (unicorn) was in 1991. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Rev'd Gordon Giles, Treasurer, Christians on the Internet (COIN) Church of the Good Shepherd,19, Hurrell Road, Cambridge, CB4 3RQ (+44] 01223) 464348 ---------------------- http://homepages.enterprise.net/gjg __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 13:15:38 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id NAA18338 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA29844 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA04011 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA04004 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:22:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA19202 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:22:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA23862; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:22:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 07:22:39 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: Darrell Wheeler cc: "J. Tate" , ChCross@aol.com, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest: Kant, Schopenhauer, Schoenberg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: I don't think style has anything intrinsic to do with disinterest. Journalists cultivate detachment as a way of implying that they are detached, but politicians mimic detachment and a concern for all when they are acting [and not necessarily improperly so] quite otherwise. Detachment is a pose, and the most impassioned statement can containthemost disinterested judgment. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 15:08:47 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA21896 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:08:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA13229 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:08:46 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA10011 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:22:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA10004 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:22:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA20040 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u010.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.10]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id MAA22602; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:22:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 25 Mar 97 12:14:24 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 25 Mar 97 12:14:20 -0500 From: "Gerald Harnett" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:14:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined CC: postman@aldinepress.com, HARNETT@ComCAT.COM Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gerald Harnett" Status: O X-Status: On disinterest and fine art: I wonder if the participants in this discussion would be interested in assembling a list of the various proposed definitions of "disinterest." There's been some discussion of different notions of distinerest, but it might help to state the various alternatives in a strict, clear and rigorous fashion. We might debate their respective merits, putting on our psychologists' caps--disinterest being properly a matter of psychology, playing a role in the theory of fine art if its name or a derivative appears in the definition of fine art. A second step might then be to list alternate definitions of fine art. Best, ________________________________________________________________ Gerald Harnett, Ed. The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions are tax-deductible. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 15:05:48 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22201 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA03346 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA10745 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA10729 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bayou.UH.EDU (root@Bayou.UH.EDU [129.7.1.7]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA23054 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.91.144.81] (kbender.nol.net [207.91.144.81]) by Bayou.UH.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA15055 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:39:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:39:10 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: MESSIAEN Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Status: RO X-Status: I just wrote off to the music theory list to ask what's the deal on the date of this piece. Will report back if I learn anything interesting. Cynthia Freeland CFreeland@UH.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 15:05:48 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22201 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA03346 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA10745 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA10729 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:39:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from Bayou.UH.EDU (root@Bayou.UH.EDU [129.7.1.7]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA23054 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 12:39:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [207.91.144.81] (kbender.nol.net [207.91.144.81]) by Bayou.UH.EDU (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA15055 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:39:10 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:39:10 -0600 (CST) X-Sender: phil7@bayou.uh.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Subject: Aesthetics: MESSIAEN Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CFreeland@UH.edu (Cynthia A. Freeland) Status: RO X-Status: D I just wrote off to the music theory list to ask what's the deal on the date of this piece. Will report back if I learn anything interesting. Cynthia Freeland CFreeland@UH.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 15:05:22 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA22179 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:05:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA09141 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:05:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA11874 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:03:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA11858 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:02:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA29713 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:02:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante12.u.washington.edu (dante12.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.38]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id JAA17516; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 09:57:04 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante12.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id KAA28534; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:02:51 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:02:51 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Darrell Wheeler cc: ChCross@aol.com, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest: Kant, Schopenhauer, Schoenberg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Darrell, Point well taken about the syntax issue. But, we have to take into account translation as well then. Either it is a poor translation, ie, that the letter is calm and collected, or the translation accurately represents its subject matter, and in the latter instance, my observation might still hold. I don't speak German--but aren't there still exclamation points? or is the translator missing something, or adding something that's not there? The body disappearing--wonderfully vague phrase isn't it? To clarify, to say that the body is not "acting" in the letter is to stay that it isn't there! The body is always involved in aesthetic experience, whether we like to verbally admit it or not. What the letter described was stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system (the previous excitement) that leads to parasympathetic rebound (de-arousal). The author claimed to have no outward excitement, possibly meaning no physical excitement, or even the desire or need to express it with speech or gesture (or speech as gesture, as Blackmur says), but the repose described is wholly physical. Lack of bodily movement does not mean the body has disappeared, it is in a state of rest only, a relaxed state. What I'm also getting at here is a notion espoused by recent psychologists that we should not consider the ANS (autonomic nervous system that controls IN-voluntary actions) and the CNS (central nervous system that controls what we "control") as two distinct and separate entities. Reworded, the mind (CNS) / body (ANS) split is a fiction: one is constantly informing the other, equally. The work done by Barbara Lex on this count is the most persuasive for out thinking here at this stage, but this fact (as it is held to be "self-evident" by most all psychologists in recent years) that the ANS and the CNS are mutually dependent and not exclusive is a very important one for aesthetics, at least I see that it is. Does that help some? I can go on if need be... Jody _________________________________ Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English University of Washington, Seattle jtate@u.washington.edu On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Darrell Wheeler wrote: > > > On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, J. Tate wrote: > > > > > Question: If this letter describes "disinterest" why is it not > > disinterested? It has an awful lot of exclamation points... The syntax is > > almost impetuous, as if the speaker was running as they wrote it, jumping > > up and down even. > > This letter was originally written in German, I take it. German style > allows for a much more "impetuous" syntax than does English. In fact, it > does not just allow for it, it is part of acceptable German syntax. So, > the syntactical evidence you note against the letter's disinterestedness > is not that persuasive. > > > > > As for the physical: physical response includes arousal and de-arousal. Repose > > sounds quite physical to me... Lack of outward excitement means the body > > is not moving, gesturing, etc., that the body is still. If the body is not > > moving it does not disappear. > > Can you explain what you would count as the disappearance of the body? > > > > > The body, the physical persists, but the rhetoric surrounding its > > participation can only understand and communicate it negatively. > > > > I wouldn't mind an explanation of this either. > > Darrell Wheeler > > PS I did not join this thread because it interested me; I just found it > aesthetically pleasing. > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 15:56:35 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA23639 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:56:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA25752 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:56:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA17087 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA17077 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:47:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA23898 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:47:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u010.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.10]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id OAA27395; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 25 Mar 97 14:39:42 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 25 Mar 97 14:39:36 -0500 From: "Gerald Harnett" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:39:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined CC: postman@aldinepress.com Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gerald Harnett" Status: O X-Status: In response to J.Tate's on the definition of disinterest: I was looking for a definition. What is offered below is not a definition but an essay. Is it clear that it is not a definition? What is wanted is a genus and a differentia; or several differentiae, if one prefers. For example: "The work of fine art is a thing made for distinterested contemplative pleasure." In this definiton, "thing made" or "artifact" is the genus; "for disinterested contemplative pleasure" might be the differentia, if it constitutes an immediate ultimate division of the genus of artifacts; or it might be taken as two differentiae, the last, "disinterest," differentiating a subgenus of artifacts that is constituted by the first, "contemplative pleasure." For example, one might suppose that one subgenus of artifacts is things made for contemplative pleasure; and that one species of this genus is the artwork, while another might be, let us say, the spectacle, under which might fall things such as parades and fireworks. Best, ________________________________________________________________ Gerald Harnett, Ed. The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions are tax-deductible. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 15:57:43 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id PAA18950 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:57:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA27634 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:57:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA16914 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:44:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA16904 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:44:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cueyatl.uam.mx (cueyatl.uam.mx [148.206.100.11]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA22447 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:44:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by cueyatl.uam.mx (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA04262; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:43:06 -0600 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 13:43:06 -0600 (CST) From: Katya Mandoki X-Sender: mandoki@cueyatl To: ICAPF@aol.com Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness In-Reply-To: <970324153014_1749583539@emout06.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Katya Mandoki Status: O X-Status: The point I was trying to make is that I find the idea of disinterestedness relevant when it refers to the process of production or creation, rather than to that of judgment. When Velazquez was commissioned to paint the Infanta and the Meninas, he did much more than a portrait: disinterestedly. Although Kant considered all three instances of the artistic (the artwork, the creator and the spectator) the emphasis of the third critique is on reception as judgment and enjoyment. That is why, his insistence on the disinterestedness of reception, rather than that of production, seems misplaced. Spectators, on the other hand, are far from disinterested when judging artworks: we are definitely interested in the delight they can offer , judge them accordingly, and would not allow their destruction (meaning, we are definitely interested in the existence of the sources of our delight). __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 17:01:17 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id RAA25911 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:01:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA16909 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 17:01:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA18458 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:13:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA18448 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout07.mail.aol.com (emout07.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.22]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA31302 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:13:24 -0500 (EST) From: ChCross@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout07.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id PAA11632; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:12:07 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 15:12:07 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970325151206_1682602842@emout07.mail.aol.com> To: jtate@u.washington.edu cc: wheeler@midget.towson.edu, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest: Kant, Schopenhauer, Schoenberg Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ChCross@aol.com Status: O X-Status: It is highly likely that the translation of the Schoenberg letter is not a good one. Unfortunately, I do not have the original German in my possession. The ellipses are my own deletions of what I thought were some extraneous phrases. I would be interested in knowing more about the notion of sympathy. Schoenberg does not use the term in the passage I quoted, but he does in other writings. He speaks on other occasions of being "enchanted into an involuntary sympathy" and "moved to the utmost sympathy" by Mahler's music. Of course, Schoenberg can not have in mind the theories of sympathetic response that you mention. However, he may have been influenced by such ideas from aesthetic theories from the nineteenth or early twentieth centuries. I never understood Kant to mean that a "disinterested" response had no physical component. Sincerely, Charlotte Cross (Ph.D., Columbia Univesity) New York, New York __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 19:59:58 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id TAA29928 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 19:59:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA12803 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:03:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA14777 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:03:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA14764 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA00047 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 14:03:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante12.u.washington.edu (dante12.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.38]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id KAA10942; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 10:57:13 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante12.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id LAA17768; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:03:34 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 11:03:34 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Gerald Harnett cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu, HARNETT@ComCAT.COM Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: I hope others will do this as well. It's a good idea to ground the discussion this way. So... One definition of disinterest: "Disinterest" is, in part, a denial of the body's role in the aesthetic experience. To say that aesthetic experience is based purely on cognition, or "contemplation" as it is often called, and that the sensation itself is not "aesthetic" is to construct a fictional mind/body dichotomy. Ancients and moderns alike are guilty of setting up this dichotomy that reduces the body's role to a stumbling block (Plotinus, Augustine, Kant are examples I've used of authors who do this). Yet, ancients and moderns have not all given themselves over to this dichotomy. As I've elaborated in other postings, Addison, Burke, Hume, and Horace allow the body to play the role it naturally plays in the aesthetic (it laughs, it cries, it sleeps, etc.) without relegating it to the lowest rung on a hierarchy of aesthetic experience. Thus, one way to approach the vast ocean of aesthetic history is to look where the author places the body in relation to the aesthetic--how this relation is understood or verbalized can reveal an enormous amount about the aesthetic "theory" being espoused. _________________________________ Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English University of Washington, Seattle jtate@u.washington.edu On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Gerald Harnett wrote: > On disinterest and fine art: > > I wonder if the participants in this discussion would be interested > in assembling a list of the various proposed definitions of > "disinterest." There's been some discussion of different notions of > distinerest, but it might help to state the various alternatives in a > strict, clear and rigorous fashion. We might debate their > respective merits, putting on our psychologists' caps--disinterest > being properly a matter of psychology, playing a role in the theory > of fine art if its name or a derivative appears in the definition of > fine art. > > A second step might then be to list alternate definitions of fine > art. > > Best, > > ________________________________________________________________ > Gerald Harnett, Ed. > The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 > Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com > The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions > are tax-deductible. > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Mar 25 18:22:28 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA21898 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 18:22:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA18075 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 18:22:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA21335 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:21:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA21318 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:21:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca (bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca [128.100.132.16]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id QAA15748 for ; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:21:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from [142.150.128.203] ([142.150.128.203]) by bureau6.utcc.utoronto.ca with SMTP id <159913(3)>; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:20:57 -0500 X-Sender: linda.irvine@mailbox92.utcc.utoronto.ca Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Romain Gril" From: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Aesthetic Disinterest Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 16:20:53 -0500 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: linda.irvine@utoronto.ca Status: O X-Status: You wrote: ........ >Of course I do not mean to disapprove of attempts to respect nature; but I >do not see that the worth of such respect is not tied to our own interest, >or to our own aesthetic satisfaction, which is subjective pleasure. > >Perhaps the aesthetic, indeed, would constitute the most 'disinterested' >way to consider the preservation of nature, but the aesthetic is >nevertheless dependent on the human. >So my question would be, Where do you ground what you take to be the >intrinsic qualities of nature? > Dear Romain: Thanks for your note and your very poignant observations. You have identifed one of the most essential questions in my work, as well as in the work of others who are currently pursuing ecological and environmental aesthetics research. As Neil Evernden (1985) has noted, "aesthetics is a way of being, a stance towards the world and an aesthetic experience requires a relationship between the seeking subject and a responsive world". Unfortunately, the tendency to view landscapes as resources, and to treat reality as an object rather than an experience has transformed the aesthetic response to the world into a quantifiable entity and commodity. Furthermore, conventional (i.e., fine art-based) aesthetic approaches -- in which a landscape or nature is viewed as an object, scene or picture which is separated and removed intellectually and emotionally from its context -- are inappropriate for aesthetically appreciating landscapes. These approaches tend to be reductionist and concentrate almost exclusively on the form attributes of nature and do not account for all of the variables, aspects or dimensions of a landscape. I do not disagree with your view that "the aesthetic is nevertheless dependent on the human", but traditional approaches are clearly 'ego-centric' and limited. Theoretical foundations for a new aesthetic paradigm are being developed in which: aesthetic value is judged as a measure of fitness, rather than absolute beauty; the pictorial and visual aspects of a landscape are still valued but only as they relate to how a landscape works; and, function and appearance are appreciated equally with perception including the ability to perceive information and understand ecological function and process as well as sensing and perceiving sensations. The significance of an ecological aesthetic paradigm is that it is conceived as a dynamic theory of aesthetics in which environmental quality, ecological process, biological function, biological integrity and evolutionary history are valued as the principal components of aesthetic appreciation. While much work is being done in this area, worldwide, there is still limited consensus as to what constitutes an integrated theory. As I've mentioned before, own interest (at the moment) in the notion of 'disinterestedness' as it relates to this theory is but one small piece of the puzzle. Regards, Linda A. Irvine Adjunct Associate Professor Program in Landscape Architecture University of Toronto __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 03:59:36 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id DAA03313 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 03:59:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.12IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA03837 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 03:59:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA06297 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 02:42:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA06290 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 02:42:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason05.u.washington.edu (jason05.u.washington.edu [140.142.78.6]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA30376 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 02:42:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante01.u.washington.edu (dante01.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.3]) by jason05.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with ESMTP id XAA15688; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:36:58 -0800 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW96.12/8.8.4+UW97.03) with SMTP id XAA19384; Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:42:46 -0800 Date: Tue, 25 Mar 1997 23:42:46 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Tate" To: Gerald Harnett cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Sorry I misunderstood. Perhaps I missed where you qualified that the definition could only be one sentence. Your example is a little confusing as well. It is defining art, not "disinterest" as you asked. We can gather a definition of disinterest from your example, but it doesn't start with disinterest. Am I misreading that? Let me try again, but I fail to see how one sentence definitions can lead to anything but vagueness, something I thought we were trying to avoid: Disinterest situates the aesthetic experience solely in the intellect, and denies the role of the body in what is a physical and intellectual experience. Jody _________________________________ Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English University of Washington, Seattle jtate@u.washington.edu On Tue, 25 Mar 1997, Gerald Harnett wrote: > In response to J.Tate's on the definition of disinterest: > > I was looking for a definition. What is offered below is not a > definition but an essay. Is it clear that it is not a definition? > What is wanted is a genus and a differentia; or several differentiae, > if one prefers. For example: "The work of fine art is a thing made > for distinterested contemplative pleasure." In this definiton, "thing > made" or "artifact" is the genus; "for disinterested contemplative > pleasure" might be the differentia, if it constitutes an immediate > ultimate division of the genus of artifacts; or it might be taken as > two differentiae, the last, "disinterest," differentiating a subgenus > of artifacts that is constituted by the first, "contemplative > pleasure." For example, one might suppose that one subgenus of > artifacts is things made for contemplative pleasure; and that one > species of this genus is the artwork, while another might be, let us > say, the spectacle, under which might fall things such as parades and > fireworks. > > Best, > > > ________________________________________________________________ > Gerald Harnett, Ed. > The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 > Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com > The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions > are tax-deductible. > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 09:17:48 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08160 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:17:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA27250 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 09:17:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA08969 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA08962 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:46:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout12.mail.aol.com (emout12.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.38]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA08645 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:46:48 -0500 (EST) From: ChCross@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout12.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id HAA13172 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:45:33 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 07:45:33 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970326074532_109648139@emout12.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterest: Kant, Schopenhauer, Schoenberg Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ChCross@aol.com Status: O X-Status: I am not sure why message to this list keep getting returned as undeliverable. This is for all those who are "interested" in the discussion of the Schoenberg better. I am responding to comments about the translation. ****************************************** It is highly likely that the translation of the Schoenberg letter is not a good one. Unfortunately, I do not have the original German in my possession. The ellipses are my own deletions of what I thought were some extraneous phrases. I would be interested in knowing more about the notion of sympathy. Schoenberg does not use the term in the passage I quoted, but he does in other writings. He speaks on other occasions of being "enchanted into an involuntary sympathy" and "moved to the utmost sympathy" by Mahler's music. Of course, Schoenberg can not have in mind the theories of sympathetic response that you mention. However, he may have been influenced by such ideas from aesthetic theories from the nineteenth or early twentieth centuries. Sincerely, Charlotte Cross (Ph.D., Columbia Univesity) New York, New York __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 19:46:43 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id TAA24834 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:46:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA09478 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:30:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA22502 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:14:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA22360 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mars.trantex.fi ([194.100.80.4]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA03865 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:10:22 -0500 (EST) Received: by mars.trantex.fi(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.05 (305.3 1-15-1997)) id C2256466.005E21EC ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:08:10 +0300 X-Lotus-FromDomain: TRANTEXMAIN From: "Teemu Pyyluoma" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 19:07:36 +0300 Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Teemu Pyyluoma" Status: O X-Status: From: Teemu Pyyluoma on 26.03.97 19.07 For the sake of definition: How about focused disinterestedness (a contradiction in terms, I know)? Like not asking a work of art to be something it isn't. For example Conrad's _Heart of Darkness_ could be considered racist, Jim Carrey might not be much of an actor, but the former is still well written and the later is occasionaly quite funny. This isn't exactly what Theophile Gauthier was aiming at (or what his irony was aimed at), but some what in line with his writing: "What is the good of this book? In what way can it be applied to the moral and physical improvement of our most numerous and poorest class? Why there is not a word in it on the needs of society, nothing civilising, nothing progressive... (it's value is that it keeps people from) reading useful, virtuous, and progressive newspapers, or other indigestible and degrading drugs" Just a thought. Cheers, Teemu Teemu.Pyyluoma@Trantex.fi Helsinki Finland __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 14:34:05 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id OAA17286 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:34:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA11627 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:33:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA22354 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:12:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA22347 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:12:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA28526 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:11:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u028.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.28]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id MAA08145; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:11:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 26 Mar 97 12:04:09 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 26 Mar 97 12:04:01 -0500 From: "Gerald Harnett" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: Gerald Harnett , "J. Tate" Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 12:03:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined CC: aesthetics@indiana.edu Priority: normal References: In-reply-to: X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <124456F2207D@aldinepress.com> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gerald Harnett" Status: O X-Status: On disinterest and definition, replies to the post cited follow below. > Sorry I misunderstood. Perhaps I missed where you qualified that the > definition could only be one sentence. Your example is a little confusing > as well. It is defining art, not "disinterest" as you asked. We can gather > a definition of disinterest from your example, but it doesn't start with > disinterest. Am I misreading that? REPLY: I suggested that we begin by producing collectively a list of definitions of disinterest. Then I gave an example of a well-formed definition. The example chosen was a definition of fine art. > Disinterest situates the aesthetic experience solely in the intellect, and > denies the role of the body in what is a physical and intellectual > experience. REPLY: Generally you'd want "is" for the verb in a definition, though strictly it does not matter, since "situates" is logically equivalent to "is that which situates." But notice that you've defined "disinterest" in terms of "aesthetic." Now we must know what "aesthetic" means. Remember that the definition must be framed with terms that are better known than the thing defined, so the general procedure will be that of finding well-known little words to explain an obscure big word. (If literary theorists knew what they were doing, like Aristotle they'd skip the big words altogether, since they contribute nothing not already present in the little words that define them.) Also you've got two criteria: something is situated, something is denied. Why not just follow the procedure I suggested: find the class of things that the definiendum is most like, its proximate genus, and then find that which distinguishes the definiendum from its fellows in that genus. ________________________________________________________________ Gerald Harnett, Ed. The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions are tax-deductible. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 16:23:44 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id QAA20701 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:23:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA26598 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:23:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA27574 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:20:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA27559 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout02.mail.aol.com (emout02.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.93]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA03815 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:20:35 -0500 (EST) From: ICAPF@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout02.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA03566; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:19:05 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:19:05 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970326141903_1649148889@emout02.mail.aol.com> To: mandoki@cueyatl.uam.mx cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterestedness Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ICAPF@aol.com Status: O X-Status: I think that we are in some agreement. Though I think that disinterested aesthetic judgement must take place with a viewer and the creator if work is to be considered fine art. I am still very influenced by Kant's idea of purposiveness. Purposiveness, the idea that something has a reason for existance beyond what one can know, seems to me to be very relevant to disinterestedness. With our it, I don't think a disinterested aesthetic experience can occur, but what does occur, as you said, is interest, delight or enjoyment. I realize that this idea isn't in sink with the art of our times, but then much of contemporary art doesn't intend to be "fine art." I am also not sure that "judgement" is the appropriate term for us to be using in this period of time when evaluating whether or not something is "fine art," or we need a better definition of what is "fine art." I do know that both as a creator and a viewer, I have experienced what I think Kant means by a disinterested aesthetic experience. I. Capozzoli ICAPF@juno.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 16:24:34 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id QAA20719 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA23179 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA27425 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA27418 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA12547 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:18:01 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGYMEE2OK09D5QHK@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:22:48 EST Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:22:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: Sparshott and Danto To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IGYMEE2V5E9D5QHK@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O X-Status: From: IN%"postmaster@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU" "PMDF e-Mail Interconnect" 24-MAR-1997 22:24:22.40 To: IN%"CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU", IN%"postmaster@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU" CC: Subj: Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed Return-path: <> Received: from TCP-DAEMON by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGWAMVIZTS9AQDFJ@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU>; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:19 EST Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGWAMSEYVK9AQLBY@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU>; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:15 -0500 (EST) From: PMDF e-Mail Interconnect Subject: Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU, postmaster@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Message-id: <01IGWAMTHAO69AQLBY@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/REPORT; BOUNDARY="Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw]" --Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw] Content-type: text/plain This report relates to a message you sent with the following header fields: Message-id: <01IGW9BFE9H49AR2J3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU To: "aesthetics."@indiana.edu Subject: Sparshott and Danto Your message cannot be delivered to the following recipients: Recipient address: "aesthetics."@indiana.edu Reason: Remote SMTP server has rejected address Diagnostic code: smtp; <"aesthetics."@indiana.edu>... User unknown Remote system: dns; mail-relay.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu Hello SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1], pleased to meet you) --Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw] Content-type: message/DELIVERY-STATUS Original-envelope-id: 01IGW9BFE9H49AR2J3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Reporting-MTA: dns; BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 (Remote SMTP server has rejected address) Original-recipient: rfc822;"aesthetics."@indiana.edu Final-recipient: rfc822;"aesthetics."@indiana.edu Remote-MTA: dns; mail-relay.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu Hello SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1], pleased to meet you) Diagnostic-code: smtp; <"aesthetics."@indiana.edu>... User unknown --Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw] Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Return-path: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from TCP-DAEMON by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGWAMSEYVK9AQLBY@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU>; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:15 EST Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGW9BFE8JA9AR2J3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for "aesthetics."@indiana.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:12 EST Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Subject: Sparshott and Danto To: "aesthetics."@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IGW9BFE9H49AR2J3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics.@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I am glad to read Roger Seamon recommending to everyone's attention the book, The Theory of the Arts, by Francis Sparshott. I second the motion. As for Seamon's comment on Leonard, relating what Leonard said about disinterestedness ("this is the end") to Danto's comment ("the end of art"), this is quite interesting, as all of his contributions have been. However, for Seamon to surmise that what Danto really meant was "the end of aesthetics" -- this seems to me to be precisely what Danto didn't mean. In "The Trans- figuration of the Commonplace", Danto submits in an elegant capsulization the following formula: I(o) = w That is, the interpretation of the object is the work of art. Thus does he distinguish the art object from the interpretation of the art object, averring that it is not the art object which is the work of art but rather the interpretation of the art object which is the work of art. This is hardly to herald the death of aesthetics. It is to proclaim a new direction for aesthetics: interpretation in a precise historico-cultural sense of the word. It is to say that the art object simpliciter is dead, having been swallowed by philosophy. Nevertheless, a point made earlier by Seamon takes on new emphasis in the light of Danto's view of interpretation. Seamon said that several of the discussants agreed with him that an aesthetic attitude (such as disinterested- ness) does not constitute a work of art. I do agree with him on that, and my agreement owes much to "The Transfiguration of the Commonplace". What does constitute a work of art? According to Danto: an interpretation. I once had the pleasure of speaking with Danto personally about this formula. I asked him whether I was correct in assuming that this was, indeed, a central emphasis of the book, and he replied in the affirmative. One may take Stolnitz remarks on disinterestedness as a sort of trigger for a cataclysm -- any random association is relevant. Well, I sure believe in free speech, and I sure have dumbfounded, humbled, infuriated, amused, enlightened, and (above all) INTERESTED. Linda certainly has her finger on the pulse of current aesthetics when she emphasizes environmental aesthetics, citing such writers as Carlson and Berleant. They are the editors of a forthcoming special issue of the Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism devoted to environmental aesthetics. The fact remains that Stolnitz wasn't doing environmental aesthetics, and for the entire discussion to refuse so much as to mention what he was doing is simply obtuse. He was doing interpretation. Danto is doing inter- pretation. Many philosophers are doing interpretation. It is not a dead topic. --Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw]-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 16:23:30 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id QAA20716 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA27424 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:23:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA28063 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:31:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA28048 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:31:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA08458 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:30:59 -0500 (EST) From: ICAPF@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id OAA25279; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:29:06 -0500 (EST) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:29:06 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <970326142905_-2073457948@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: postman@aldinepress.com, aesthetics@indiana.edu cc: HARNETT@comcat.com Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ICAPF@aol.com Status: O X-Status: Another definition: Disinterested aesthetic judgement is when one has an experience with an artifact (fine art) and loses a physical sense of self (body) in favor of a cognitive sense (mind) of a larger ultimate reality (sublime). I. Capozzoli ICAPF@juno.com __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 17:36:07 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA22521 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA21938 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:36:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA00870 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:40:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA00863 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:40:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA30473 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id PAA05537 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:40:24 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970326153821.006b0660@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:38:27 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: aesthetics sessions at the Pacific APA Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O X-Status: (note the session on disinteredness! dl) American Philosophical Association Pacific Meeting March 27-29, 1997, Berkeley, California Symposium: "Can Feminist Art Be Experienced Disinterestedly?" 3 p.m. March 27 Peg Brand Comments: Deborah Fitzgerald and Jane Kneller Society for the Philosophical Study of the Contemporary Visual Arts Session I 8 p.m. March 27 Luc Bovens, "Hope in Shawshank Redemption and Conte d'hiver" Sander Lee, "Images of the Holocaust in the Films of Woody Allen" Allen Casebier, "The Crisis of the Romantic Spirit in a Post-Modern Era" Colloquium: Aesthetics 1 p.m. March 28 Kenneth F. Rogerson, "Pleasure and Fit in Kant's Aesthetics" Comments: Robert Stecker Cynthia Rostenkowski, "Beyond Beauty: The Role of Ugliness" Comments: Stanley Bates Author Meets Critics: Gregory Currie's Image and Mind: Film, Philosophy and Cognitive Science 3 p.m. March 28 Noel Carroll Berys Gaut Dominic Lopes Gregory Currie Society for the Philosophical Study of the Contemporary Visual Arts Session II 6 p.m. March 29 Stuart Nicholson, "Action and Emptiness: Princess Orientation, A Meditation on Art and Philosophy" Daniel Shaw, "The Will of the Other in the Films of Jane Campion" __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 17:38:37 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA22552 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:38:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA16854 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:38:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA01339 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:57:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA01330 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:57:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA04225 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:57:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:56:58 +0100 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:56:57 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:57:32 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: O X-Status: I'll have a try...: Disinterestdness is the state in which someone is in a non-acquisitive, non-inquisitive relation with an object and does not expect or foresee any predetermined benefit from this relation. The ultimate, irrefutable disinterestedness would be that of who would be in (active or receptive) relation with an object without being aware of it. Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 17:48:19 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA22683 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:48:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA19930 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA02545 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:20:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA02538 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:20:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA21601 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:20:44 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGYQOQ7HY89D5V71@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:25:41 EST Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:25:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: Sparshott and Danto To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IGYQOQ7LPU9D5V71@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Status: O X-Status: From: IN%"POSTMASTER@CompuServe.COM" "Electronic Postmaster" 26-MAR-1997 15:47:02.61 To: IN%"CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU" CC: Subj: Undeliverable message Return-path: Received: from arl-img-4.compuserve.com by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) with SMTP id <01IGYPBYRMM89D5SP5@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for CANTRIRB; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:46:59 EST Received: by arl-img-4.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA28527; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:41:46 -0500 Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:35:22 -0500 (EST) From: Electronic Postmaster Subject: Undeliverable message To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Message-id: <970326203521_515664.456256_IHH35-36@CompuServe.COM> Message-type: Delivery Report Comments: Returned from: <102640.1636@CompuServe.COM> Re: ? EMDRNF - Mail Delivery Failure. Receiver not found. 102640,1636 Aesthetics: Sparshott and Danto Your message could not be delivered as addressed. --- Returned message --- Sender: owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by arl-img-3.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515) id PAA03821; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:35:22 -0500 Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA27425 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:18:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA27418 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:18:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU (SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA12547 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:18:01 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGYMEE2OK09D5QHK@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:22:48 EST Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 14:22:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Aesthetics: Sparshott and Danto To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IGYMEE2V5E9D5QHK@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU From: IN%"postmaster@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU" "PMDF e-Mail Interconnect" 24-MAR-1997 22:24:22.40 To: IN%"CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU", IN%"postmaster@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU" CC: Subj: Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed Return-path: <> Received: from TCP-DAEMON by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGWAMVIZTS9AQDFJ@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU>; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:19 EST Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGWAMSEYVK9AQLBY@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU>; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:15 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:15 -0500 (EST) From: PMDF e-Mail Interconnect Subject: Delivery Notification: Delivery has failed To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU, postmaster@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Message-id: <01IGWAMTHAO69AQLBY@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: MULTIPART/REPORT; BOUNDARY="Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw]" --Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw] Content-type: text/plain This report relates to a message you sent with the following header fields: Message-id: <01IGW9BFE9H49AR2J3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU To: "aesthetics."@indiana.edu Subject: Sparshott and Danto Your message cannot be delivered to the following recipients: Recipient address: "aesthetics."@indiana.edu Reason: Remote SMTP server has rejected address Diagnostic code: smtp; <"aesthetics."@indiana.edu>... User unknown Remote system: dns; mail-relay.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu Hello SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1], pleased to meet you) --Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw] Content-type: message/DELIVERY-STATUS Original-envelope-id: 01IGW9BFE9H49AR2J3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Reporting-MTA: dns; BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 (Remote SMTP server has rejected address) Original-recipient: rfc822;"aesthetics."@indiana.edu Final-recipient: rfc822;"aesthetics."@indiana.edu Remote-MTA: dns; mail-relay.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu Hello SYSTEM@snybufaa.buffalostate.edu [136.183.34.1], pleased to meet you) Diagnostic-code: smtp; <"aesthetics."@indiana.edu>... User unknown --Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw] Content-type: MESSAGE/RFC822 Return-path: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Received: from TCP-DAEMON by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGWAMSEYVK9AQLBY@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU>; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:15 EST Received: from BUFFALOSTATE.EDU by BUFFALOSTATE.EDU (PMDF V5.1-5 #18385) id <01IGW9BFE8JA9AR2J3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> for "aesthetics."@indiana.edu; Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:12 EST Date: Mon, 24 Mar 1997 22:24:12 -0500 (EST) From: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU Subject: Sparshott and Danto To: "aesthetics."@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IGW9BFE9H49AR2J3@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> X-VMS-To: IN%"aesthetics.@indiana.edu" MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII I am glad to read Roger Seamon recommending to everyone's attention the book, The Theory of the Arts, by Francis Sparshott. I second the motion. As for Seamon's comment on Leonard, relating what Leonard said about disinterestedness ("this is the end") to Danto's comment ("the end of art"), this is quite interesting, as all of his contributions have been. However, for Seamon to surmise that what Danto really meant was "the end of aesthetics" -- this seems to me to be precisely what Danto didn't mean. In "The Trans- figuration of the Commonplace", Danto submits in an elegant capsulization the following formula: I(o) = w That is, the interpretation of the object is the work of art. Thus does he distinguish the art object from the interpretation of the art object, averring that it is not the art object which is the work of art but rather the interpretation of the art object which is the work of art. This is hardly to herald the death of aesthetics. It is to proclaim a new direction for aesthetics: interpretation in a precise historico-cultural sense of the word. It is to say that the art object simpliciter is dead, having been swallowed by philosophy. Nevertheless, a point made earlier by Seamon takes on new emphasis in the light of Danto's view of interpretation. Seamon said that several of the discussants agreed with him that an aesthetic attitude (such as disinterested- ness) does not constitute a work of art. I do agree with him on that, and my agreement owes much to "The Transfiguration of the Commonplace". What does constitute a work of art? According to Danto: an interpretation. I once had the pleasure of speaking with Danto personally about this formula. I asked him whether I was correct in assuming that this was, indeed, a central emphasis of the book, and he replied in the affirmative. One may take Stolnitz remarks on disinterestedness as a sort of trigger for a cataclysm -- any random association is relevant. Well, I sure believe in free speech, and I sure have dumbfounded, humbled, infuriated, amused, enlightened, and (above all) INTERESTED. Linda certainly has her finger on the pulse of current aesthetics when she emphasizes environmental aesthetics, citing such writers as Carlson and Berleant. They are the editors of a forthcoming special issue of the Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism devoted to environmental aesthetics. The fact remains that Stolnitz wasn't doing environmental aesthetics, and for the entire discussion to refuse so much as to mention what he was doing is simply obtuse. He was doing interpretation. Danto is doing inter- pretation. Many philosophers are doing interpretation. It is not a dead topic. --Boundary_[ID_K4MvV/rbAn4y/zgbVOPqzw]-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 17:45:30 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA22616 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:45:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA31694 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 17:45:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA03571 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA03560 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from NaSPA.Net ([199.201.110.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id QAA12470 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 16:48:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from [199.201.110.168] by NaSPA.Net id 7cf80.wrk; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:39:48 cst Message-ID: <33399741.5E20@nascom.com> Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:38:09 -0600 From: Harold Annen Organization: NaSPA X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: call for artists Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------1F7E23CD6B86" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Harold Annen Status: O X-Status: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1F7E23CD6B86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit entry form in attached file -microsoftword --------------1F7E23CD6B86 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="NATIONAL PERSPECTIVES EXHBIIT.doc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="NATIONAL PERSPECTIVES EXHBIIT.doc" ÐÏࡱáSponsored by the WALKER'S POINT ARTIST ASSOCIATION/GALLERY 218 MAY 4 - 31, 1997 Call for Artists JUROR: Fred Stein, Milwaukee based artist, award winning artist/photographer. AWARDS: 1st, 2nd , 3rd place awards will be given plus a special Grumbacher award. (Work must be executed 100% with Grumbacher products). MEDIA: All fine arts, including : printmaking, photography , mixed media , painting, pastels, sculpture (no crafts). ELIGIBILITY: Open to all artists 18 years and over. No students. (Graduate students may enter.) Submit three slides labeled with name, media, title, dimensions and TOP. All work must be for sale. DEADLINE: All slides must be at the Gallery no later than April 1. This is not a postmark date. ENTRY FEE: The entry fee is $25. ($20 for WPAA members). Make checks payable to WPAA, Inc. MAILING SLIDES: Clip entry form and mail with entry fee, slides, and a stamped self addressed envelope to: National Juried Exhibition c/o Gallery 218 218 South 2nd Street, Milwaukee, WI 53204 ACCEPTED WORKS: All 2-D work MUST BE READY FOR HANGING. PLEASE DON’T EXPECT THE GALLERY TO ASSEMBLE YOUR WORK. ALL WORK MUST BE FRAMED. NO CLAW TYPE HANGERS OR CLIP FRAMES. Artists who are not members are asked to send a resume or bio. If shipping, use plexi-not glass. Attach ID labels to each work. Shipped works must in sturdy , reissuable cartons. No popcorn packing-please use bubble wrap. Return shipping MUST be arranged for , either by a UPS call tag or by sending a check to cover the cost of return shipping AND insurance. If desired, other means of pre paid return shipping , pick up, etc. can be made. If you don’t arrange for return shipping, work will be sent COD via Federal Express. Please make sure the outside of the carton is labeled with artist’s name and address. The juror reserves the right to reject any work that does not accurately represent the image shown on slide. INSURANCE AND Works entered will be insured during the exhibition. SALES: Works in transit or left behind after the exhibit will not be covered. While responsible care will be taken in handling work, neither WPAA or Gallery 218 or its officers will assume responsibility for loss or damage prior to or after the exhibit. Gallery 218 will assist in sales and take a 30% commission (25% of members sales). WPAA/GALLERY 218 is committed to providing exhibition opportunities to area artists. Every artist who enters this show contributes to the success of this cooperative space. Volunteers to gallery-sit and perform other duties are welcome! Thank you for your support! For further information call 414-277-7800. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- National Juried Exhibition GALLERY 218 Entry Form Name ________________________________________________________________________________________ Address _____________________________________________ Phone ____________________________________ Number of slides ____ Media ___________________________HOW DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THE EXHIBITION/OUR GALLERY?________________________________________ Amount Enclosed: ENTRY________.$20-MEMBER. $25 NON-MEMBER Please consider me for the Grumbacher award_________. hÐ 4ÿhÐ 4& H' H( H) H1 ¨3ELIGIBILITY: OpenDEADLINE: All slides mu(To create a document, choose File New to re-open your template as a document. To delete the “logo” elements of this press release, click on any frame border (the frame “handles” should become highlighted) and press Delete. Annotation Reference Annotation Text Block Quotation Body Text Body Text Indent Body Text Keep Caption Company Name Return Address Contact Date Default Paragraph Font Document Label Emphasis Endnote Reference Endnote Text Footer Footer First Footnote Base Footnote Reference Footnote Text Header Header Base Heading 1 Heading 2 Heading 3 Heading 4 Heading 5 Heading Base Lead-in Emphasis List List 2 List 3 List 4 List 5 List Bullet List Bullet 2 List Bullet 3 List Bullet 4 List Bullet 5 List Continue List Continue 2 List Continue 3 List Continue 4 List Continue 5 List Number List Number 2 List Number 3 List Number 4 List Number 5 Macro Text Message Header Normal Normal Indent Page Number Picture Return Address Subject Line Subtitle Superscript Title #--------------1F7E23CD6B86-- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 20:12:15 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id UAA25281 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA05128 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 20:12:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA06793 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:19:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA06779 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:19:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA20044 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:19:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca (rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42]) by unixg.ubc.ca (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA11386; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:18:26 -0800 (PST) Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 15:18:25 -0800 (PST) From: Roger Seamon X-Sender: rseamon@interchg.ubc.ca To: CANTRIRB@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Sparshott and Danto In-Reply-To: <01IGYQOQ7LPU9D5V71@BUFFALOSTATE.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Roger Seamon Status: O X-Status: In brief defense of my remark about Danto, adn I have not looked at "Transfiguration" in a while. I thought that precisely because it was interpretation that "made" a work, the arts in the old sense [preconceptual] got sort of put back into the domain of crafts, ie., objects taht might be useful, even just to enjoy looking at, like pottery, but which didn;y say or imply anything. Thus Peter Kivy suggests that music "alone" might be thought of as a decorative art, which is not art at all, I take it , from Danto's perspective [whic doesn't mean it isn't interesting, valuable, etc.]. Roger Seamon phone (604) 822-8619 Department of English fax (604) 822-4520 University of British Columbia home (604) 683-5662 Vancouver, B.C. V6T 1Z1 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 21:24:16 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id VAA26328 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA15072 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 21:24:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA07949 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:51:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA07939 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:51:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id SAA02587 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 18:50:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Wed, 26 Mar 97 15:51 PST Message-id: <2864376@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 26 Mar 97 15:51:05 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: I'm not as sanguine about the usefulness of a genus/species definition of 'disinterestedness' as Gerald Harnett is. Few things, even ordinary things, are usefully defined that way. One reason they aren't is that the concepts under which they fall do not have the kinds of sharp boundaries that one finds in mathematics, and in certain 'closed' areas of science, such as geometrical optics. Another reason is that any proposed definition is going to have to accord pretty much with the strongest intuitions we already have about such things: if I were to define disinterestedness as a genus of the family Iridaceae, you would not wonder if there were some deep truth here; you would rightly conclude that I was just plain wrong. (This is also why stipulative definitions may work for specific purposes on special occasions, but aren't useful as general accounts.) If one is disinterested, as I've already said, in the *ordinary* way, one has no stake in the outcome of what one is judging or investigating. In legal situations this is intended to prevent a judge from giving a verdict that advances his or her personal interests as opposed to rendering a judgment based on the facts at hand, the requirements of the law, and nothing more. This sort of disinterestedness, though, is not opposed to *interest*. One would hope that a disinterested judge would be keenly interested in the matter before her; that she would not daydream during testimony or do crossword puzzles under the guise of taking notes. Apparently someone, somewhere (Kant is usually the villain) believes that it is possible to perceive and to contemplate aesthetic objects (as I'll call them) in a 'disinterested' way. (As far as I know, this is not Kant's language.) What this apparently means is that one cannot perceive, contemplate, or judge (?) the work or phenomenon in question with a view to its economic worth; its utility; its actual or potential benefit to the viewer or to humanity at large. Where this notion becomes incoherent is at the level of interpersonal relationships (one would have thought that this was true by definition); and at the level of judging something well-made, where the thing has an essential function, e.g. a watch or a compass. It is surely possible to admire a person for his or her appearance alone; for his or her graceful movements; mellifluous voice, etc. But to do so is to treat the person as an object--and it cannot be true that by treating persons as objects we can appreciate or understand them 'for their own sakes.' It would also be possible to admire a watch for the intricacy of its case or its simplicity of form (the Movado 'Museum Watch'); but here again, if one only admires it for these and similar qualities one is not admiring it, judging it, or contemplating it as a watch, but as an ornament merely. So once more one would not be appreciating it for its own sake, but for reasons accidental to its 'nature.' Instead of trying to define (aesthetic) 'disinterestedness' as might a group of amateur lexicographers, perhaps it would be valuable to try to understand what those who argue for such an attitude towards aesthetic objects and phenomena had in mind. That insofar as I understand them I think they're wrong doesn't mean that there is nothing of interest in what they say or in what moved them to say it. All good wishes, Robert Paul Reed College robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 23:55:17 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id XAA28231 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA12830 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:55:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA13720 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA13713 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:48:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA10451 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u065.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.65]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id WAA00992; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:48:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 26 Mar 97 22:40:45 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 26 Mar 97 22:40:38 -0500 From: "Gerald Harnett" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:40:35 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: Definition assailed CC: postman@aldinepress.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <2864376@isis.Reed.EDU> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <148B418A65F1@aldinepress.com> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gerald Harnett" Status: O X-Status: On definition and disinterest, in reply to Robert Paul's: Another subscriber has offered a definition of disinterest, to which I'd like to respond in a day or so. Robert Paul has offered an attack on the worthiness of the project itself, however, even deriding those participating in it as "amateur lexicographers." In view of discussion in years past of the notion of fine art as an "open concept" that may be "indefinable," it was no doubt inevitable that someone or other would offer such a response. Since I doubt that it would be useful to begin a discussion of the philosophy of science on this mailing-list, I'll respond as briefly as possible. Although the procedure of the empirical sciences and those that we today call "philosophy" differ in important respects, these differences are variations on a common pattern: beginning with facts known to be true by induction, we then seek an explanation, which first states the ultimate cause of these facts and then shows how the facts follow from it as its effects. In the kind of science that we call "philosophy" today the ultimate cause of the facts known to be true by induction is the fundamental nature of the subject of the science. Thus, for example, one attempts to explain why fine art seems especially sensible in nature, and especially pleasurable, and in some way disinterested, by explaining what fine art is: a thing made for disinterested contemplative pleasure, for example. If this statement of its fundamental nature is correct, we ought to be able to show that it is fine art's nature as a thing made for disinterested contemplative pleasure that causes it to be (or seem to be) especially sensible, pleasurable and disinterested. The statement of the subject's fundamental nature is its definition. Now, if we can agree on this account of appropriate procedure as stated so far, we should be able to agree also that (1) the statement of the subject's nature should be as clear and simple as possible and (2) we should show as clearly and rigorously as possible why the facts that we know to be true by induction follow from that nature. The subject of this present discussion is step (1), the definition. Now, Robert Paul objects to the suggestion that the definition should be in the form of a differentia and genus. I think that it would be most unprofitable to get into a debate about essentialism. Instead, let's just look for a definition that is clearly and simply stated, for if our definition is clear and simple, it will as a consequence satisfy all the many rules for the construction of correct definitions offered in Aristotle's *Topics.* Now, assuming that Robert Paul had intended to offer a definition of fine art, but not one in differentia/genus form, I have just searched through his post looking for that definition. I did not find it. Instead, after stating at the outset of his post that he saw little use for a definition of a certain form, at his post's end R.P. seems to advise that we not look for a definition at all, but instead should attend to what others "had in mind" when they argued for the existence of an aesthetic attitude. If there is not present in his post a statement of (A) the fundamental nature of fine art, the nature that is causative of (B) the other facts that we know or believe we know to be true about fine art, then his post would seem to be a ruminative assessment of the things just mentioned under (B). In that case, however, we are still searching for (A), the cause. Or perhaps it is present, but R.P. did not identify it as such; or perhaps he did identify it, and in my obtuseness I failed to grasp his point. Any clarification would help. Best, ________________________________________________________________ Gerald Harnett, Ed. The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions are tax-deductible. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 23:56:59 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id XAA26904 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:56:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA01788 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:56:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA14085 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:01:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA14070 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:01:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA06427 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:01:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u065.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.65]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id XAA01412; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:01:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 26 Mar 97 22:53:50 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 26 Mar 97 22:53:22 -0500 From: "Gerald Harnett" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:53:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: correction to Definition assailed CC: postman@aldinepress.com Priority: normal References: <2864376@isis.Reed.EDU> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <1496EBDE5C58@aldinepress.com> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gerald Harnett" Status: O X-Status: A correction to an error that's perhaps very obvious, but also egregious: > If this statement of its fundamental nature is correct, we > ought to be able to show that it is fine art's nature as a thing made > for disinterested contemplative pleasure that causes it to be (or > seem to be) especially sensible, pleasurable and disinterested. CORRECTION: If the definition includes the terms "disinterest" and "pleasurable,"of course we do not explain fine art's disinterestedness and pleasurableness by such a definition. So in addition to "sensible" we should choose other things as examples of attributes that are known to be true by induction and explained by the nature of the defininiendum as stated in the definition: the fact that it is often or always a source of recreation, for example, or the fact that to many it has seemed in some way "self- referential." All the things that we know to be true about the definiendum must be shown to follow from its nature as effects follow from their cause. If they do, then the chances are very great that we have landed on the true definition. It is through this explanatory power of the definition that we judge it to be true, on the grounds that "the facts fit." Best, explained by the definiton: ________________________________________________________________ Gerald Harnett, Ed. The Aldine Press, Ltd. 304 South Tyson Ave. Glenside, PA 19038 Email: postmaster@aldinepress.com / Website: www.aldinepress.com The Aldine Press is a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization. Contributions are tax-deductible. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 27 04:02:05 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id EAA29940 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:02:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA03685 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:02:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA17826 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA17819 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:21:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id CAA17174 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 02:21:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (/\oo/\ Smail3.1.29.1osf1 #29.2) id ; Wed, 26 Mar 97 23:22 PST Message-id: <2865826@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 26 Mar 97 23:21:53 PST From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: Gerald Harnett says that I 'deride' those who would participate in his project of offering a definition of what he apparently believes to be the most illuminating sort, by implying that they are 'amateur lexicographers.' He has an idiosyncratic definition of 'deride.'This is what I wrote: >Instead of trying to define (aesthetic) 'disinterestedness' as might a group of amateur lexicographers, perhaps it would be valuable to try to understand what those who argue for such an attitude towards aesthetic objects and phenomena had in mind.< In the same paragraph he says: 'in view of [the earlier] discussionof the notion of fine art as an "open concept" that may be "indefinable," it was no doubt inevitable that someone...would offer such a response.' I don't know if 'such a response' refers to my alleged derision or to the suggestion that fine art is an 'open concept.' I did not mention 'fine art' in my earlier post, so whether it is or isn't an 'open concept' is hardly germane to what I thought we were talking about, viz., what's meant by saying that aesthetic perception or contemplation is a unique, 'disinterested' form of perception or contemplation. I also said that it was a fairly straightforward matter to explain in other contexts what was meant by saying that one was disinterested, and why it might be desirable that one was. This posses no challenge. But this sense of disinterestedness does not seem to be the one we're looking for just now. He writes: > In the kind of science that we call "philosophy" today the ultimate cause of the facts known to be true by induction is the fundamental nature of the subject of the science.< I have puzzled over this sentence long enough to conclude on inductive grounds that I'm never going to understand it. Nor, I'm afraid do I follow any of the rest of Gerald Harnett's account of philosophy cum science. Ordinarily truths are not established by induction. One may come to believe something on inductive grounds, but neither the world nor logic offers a guarantee that what one believes is true. Philosophy deals not only with inductive truths but with a priori truths, meaning relations, entailments, and much else that falls under the concept *what follows from what*. I will certainly read with interest any definitions of 'disinterest,' etc., that may appear. Define away. But I still believe that such definitions will not help us to see what those who hold theories of aesthetic disinterestedness were getting at when they proposed them. All good wishes, Robert Paul Reed College robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Mar 26 23:54:08 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id XAA28214 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA01333 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 23:54:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA13492 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:39:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA13482 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:39:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from sam.comms.unsw.EDU.AU (sam.comms.unsw.EDU.AU [149.171.96.20]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA31503 for ; Wed, 26 Mar 1997 22:39:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from [149.171.20.75] ([149.171.20.75]) by sam.comms.unsw.EDU.AU (8.7.5/8.7.5.kenso-central) with SMTP id OAA03712 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:39:08 +1100 (EST) Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 14:39:08 +1100 (EST) Message-Id: <199703270339.OAA03712@sam.comms.unsw.EDU.AU> X-Sender: s9005061@popserver.csd.unsw.EDU.AU Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: V.Levell@unsw.edu.au (Virginia Levell) Subject: Aesthetics: Michael Baxandall Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: V.Levell@unsw.edu.au (Virginia Levell) Status: O X-Status: I am interested in finding the whereabouts of Michael Baxandall, formerly Professor of the History of Classical Tradition, Warburg Institute, University of London. I need the information for a PHD thesis. Any help appreciated. Virginia Levell College of Fine Arts, University of New South Wales Australia __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 27 05:15:36 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id FAA32515 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:15:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA26329 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA18409 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 03:55:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA18402 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 03:55:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA25190 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 03:55:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:55:09 +0100 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:55:08 +0100 (MET) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 09:55:44 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Disinterest defined Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: O X-Status: I certainly do not wish to get embroiled in the Harnett/Paul controversy. But it seems to me that part of this thread was going astray for lack of a common defintion of "distinteretedness"--since some even took it to mean lack of interest for something, which obviously is not the case. I certainly agree with Robert Paul that mere definitions will be insufficient to really get to the core of the problem of art and aesthetics. Yet, it might be useful, to agree on a basic definition of "disintrestedness" in order to agree on some common meaning (or else, what's the point of a discussion list?), not so much as an end as as a means to open up new vistas for further discussion. After all, maybe the aesthetics of conversation needs to be based on some kind of... "disinteretedness!" Disinterestedly, Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Mar 27 05:15:41 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id FAA25130 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:15:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA23033 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 05:15:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id EAA18598 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:20:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id EAA18591 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:20:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from uz.comcat.com (uz.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.8]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA32548 for ; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:20:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from aldinepress.com (u065.ComCAT.COM [204.170.64.65]) by uz.comcat.com (8.8.3/pe/sol2/mh/961128) with ESMTP; id EAA07595; Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:20:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from Spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.22); 27 Mar 97 04:13:05 -0500 Received: from spooler by aldinepress.com (Mercury/32 1.23); 27 Mar 97 04:12:50 -0500 From: "Gerald Harnett" Organization: The Aldine Press, Ltd. To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Thu, 27 Mar 1997 04:12:42 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: science & definition CC: postman@aldinepress.com Priority: normal In-reply-to: <2865826@isis.Reed.EDU> X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.50) Message-ID: <15BB72CA6A71@aldinepress.com> Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Gerald Harnett" Status: O X-Status: On science and definition, a response to the following remarks by another subscriber follow below: > Nor, I'm afraid do I follow any of the rest of Gerald Harnett's account of > philosophy cum science. REPLY: I'd be curious to learn, either privately or publicly, if other subscribers are similarly perplexed by the account I offered of scientific procedure, which applies to sciences as diverse as geometry and metaphysics. In an attempt to overcome any philosophical language barriers, the account I offered was framed in terms that for the most part were not specifically