From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 8 20:59:52 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id UAA03037 for ; Thu, 8 May 1997 20:59:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA07461; Thu, 8 May 1997 20:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA09385 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 8 May 1997 20:48:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA09378 for ; Thu, 8 May 1997 20:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.Hawaii.Edu (root@relay1.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.3.53]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id UAA20060 for ; Thu, 8 May 1997 20:48:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu ([128.171.44.6]) by relay1.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <587263(5)>; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:41:25 -1000 Received: from localhost by uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <17358(2)>; Thu, 8 May 1997 15:47:46 -1000 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 15:47:44 -1000 From: Anthony J Palmer X-Sender: apalmer@uhunix1 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Conference Respondents Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Anthony J Palmer Status: RO X-Status: We need to fill a couple of respondent cancellations for the Phil of Music Education International Symposium III being held at UCLA on May 28 - 31. Is there anyone on the west coast or in the far west who has a good music background (phil background is assumed) who would like to respond to a couple of papers? They are "Activating Self-Transformation Through Improvisation in Instrumental Music Education." and. "The roles of work and play in music education." Also, if anyone has the music background but also a solid grasp of modernism and post-modernism, please, let's talk. Send me notification of your interest and a brief description of your background. We can waive registration fees, etc. Access our WEB site at http://www2.hawaii.edu/music/ and you can see the full conference schedule and other information. thanks for your consideration. anthony j. palmer, univ of hawaii at manoa, chair of the symp __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 8 23:07:47 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id XAA04103 for ; Thu, 8 May 1997 23:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA02592; Thu, 8 May 1997 22:55:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA12593 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 8 May 1997 22:53:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA12585 for ; Thu, 8 May 1997 22:52:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.virginia.edu (mail.Virginia.EDU [128.143.2.9]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id WAA21537 for ; Thu, 8 May 1997 22:52:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from faraday.clas.virginia.edu by mail.virginia.edu id ab21137; 8 May 97 21:52 EDT Received: from [128.143.141.187] (bootp-141-187.bootp.Virginia.EDU [128.143.141.187]) by faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU (8.8.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id VAA429222 for ; Thu, 8 May 1997 21:52:42 -0400 Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 21:52:42 -0400 Message-Id: <199705090152.VAA429222@faraday.clas.Virginia.EDU> X-Sender: fem2x@faraday.clas.virginia.edu Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Fred Maus Subject: Aesthetics: Feminist Theory and Music Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Fred Maus Status: RO X-Status: Conference announcement: FEMINIST THEORY AND MUSIC 4 A conference to be held on the grounds of the University of Virginia, with sessions beginning 1 PM Thursday, June 5 and continuing through noon, Sunday June 8, 1997. The conference will feature over 100 scholarly papers, performances and presentations exploring issues of gender, race, ethnicity, class and sexuality in musics from a wide range of cultural settings. For a complete listing of the program and abstracts, available in mid-May, visit our web page at http://www.virginia.edu/~music/ftm4.html. Plenary events will include "Remembering Ruth Crawford Seeger" presentations by Mike Seeger and Judith Tick. Thursday 4:30 PM A concert of electronic music by women composers including music by Insook Choi, Anne LeBaron, Annea Lockwood, Alicyn Warren, and Frances White. Martin Goldray, piano. Thursday 8:30 PM Open rehearsal and premiere performance of a choral work by Maura Bosch commissioned for this conference, conducted by Michele Edwards. Friday 12:45 - 1:45 PM "Tough Women" a lecture-recital by soprano Gwendolyn Lytle including songs by Margaret Bonds, Libby Larsen and Gwyneth Walker. Friday 4:30 PM Concert of recent music by women composers presented by the chamber ensemble Ekko! Friday 8:30 PM "Music as Community: Workshop in Central African Polyphony" led by Michelle Kisliuk. Saturday 12:45 - 1:45 PM Reception to celebrate two important publications: Judith Tick's biography Ruth Crawford Seeger: A Composer's Search for American Music and the first issue of Women and Music, a new scholarly journal. Saturday 4:30 PM. "Women Composers and Electronic Music" presentations by Insook Choi, Anne LeBaron, Annea Lockwood, Judith Shatin, and Frances White. Saturday 8:30 PM See below for registration and housing forms. 90% refund on registration and meals if you cancel by May 30, 50% if you cancel later. We have arranged for housing through the University. Registrants may stay in private rooms at Lambeth Apartments for $25/night, or may share a room for $20/night. Rooms are in suites of two or three bedrooms with shared bathroom and kitchen. Registrants may use the kitchens, but kitchen utensils are not provided. Spaces are available Wednesday through Sunday nights. Reserve one week in advance to guarantee space. Cancellations must be at least one week before arrival for full refund. To cancel call (804) 924-4479. The University requires a key deposit of $80 upon check-in, payable by cash, check, or VISA/Mastercard. We have also arranged for meals: all meals from Thursday dinner through Sunday lunch will be available in a University dining facility, except for Friday and Saturday lunch, available as box lunches at the Music building. Because of other events in Charlottesville, hotel and restaurant spaces are limited the weekend of the Conference, and we strongly advise registrants to use the housing and meals that we have arranged. Meals should be reserved by paying in advance: $54 to cover all the meals served in the dining hall, and $7 for each of the two box lunches. We recommend that all registrants purchase the $54 meal plan. A limited number of meals in the dining hall will be available on a cash, per-meal basis, but we cannot guarantee availability. Housing is a ten minute walk from the dining hall, and the conference events are a further five minute walk. We will provide local transportation for registrants with special needs. Transportation to Charlottesville is possible by air or train. We recommend working with a travel agent to explore different options. Charlottesville has a small airport; availability of flights varies and fares may be high. You may wish to consider travelling to Richmond (80 minutes away) or the Washington area airports (Dulles is closest, 2 hours away) and renting a car; the difference in fare may more than offset the rental cost. Amtrak has daily service to Charlottesville's station. =========================================== Registration form. You may pay by VISA, Mastercard or check (US$ only). Print out this form and return it by mail to: FTM4, Department of Music, University of Virginia, Charlottesville VA 22903. Or you may register by phone or email using credit card: (804) 924-3984 or . Registration fee: $90 (after May 22: $100). Those with annual income under $21,000 may choose to register at a lower rate of $60 ($70 after May 22). (1) Registration fee: ___ Breakfast and dinner and Sunday lunch are available from University dining services; box lunches will be available at the conference site. Meal plan (all meals from dinner Thursday through lunch Sunday, except for lunch on Friday and Saturday) $54 per person (2) Meal plan: _____ Check the days that you wish to have a box lunch: F __ Sa __ (3) _ Lunches @ $7: ____ for lunches: __meat __vegetarian __dietary restrictions:____________ Volunteers do most of the work for the Conference, and we rely on small grants, registration fees and donations to cover Conference expenses. We welcome donations, either for general operating expenses or to sponsor the reduced registration fee for lower-income participants ($30 reduction per person). (4) Donation: ____ Total payment (sum of 1 - 4 above):_____ __Check enclosed (US$ only) Charge my __VISA __Mastercard account Card number: _____________________ Expiration date: ____ Signature: _______________ Name: (as it will appear on badge): ______________________________ Institution or place of residence (optional):____________________ Address:__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________ Phone:______________________________ Email: ___________________ __I will need special assistance with local transportation (attach explanation) __Please mail me information about driving to Charlottesville ================================================Housing request for Feminist Theory and Music. Print out this form and mail it to: University of Virginia, Conference Services, Page-Emmett, Station #1, Charlottesville VA 22904-0003. Or reserve with credit card by calling (804) 924-4479, or emailing complete information to , or fax the form with credit card information to Conference Services at (804) 924-1027. Name: _______________________________ Social security #_________________________ Address: __________________________________ City: ____________________________________ State: ________________ Zip: _________ Daytime phone: __________________________ Fax #: ______________________________ Arrival date: _______________________ Departure date: _____________________________ Accommodations: __ Lambeth single room @$25 __ Lambeth double room @$20/person __Male __Female __Couple __Smoker __Handicap/physical disability (attach explanation) If you have agreed to share a double with someone else please identify him/her: ____________ ___ Check enclosed. Charge my ___ Visa ___ Mastercard. Amount: $__________________ Cardholder's name: _________________________________ Expiration date: _____________ Signature:_______________________________ __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat May 10 00:33:22 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id AAA29053 for ; Sat, 10 May 1997 00:33:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA04587; Sat, 10 May 1997 00:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA22377 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 10 May 1997 00:29:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id AAA22370 for ; Sat, 10 May 1997 00:29:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout19.mail.aol.com (emout19.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.45]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA04742 for ; Sat, 10 May 1997 00:29:45 -0500 (EST) From: RMehta1528@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout19.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id BAA05136 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sat, 10 May 1997 01:28:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 01:28:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970510012828_1618848247@emout19.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: imagination Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: RMehta1528@aol.com Status: O X-Status: Hello: I am about to embark on a dissertation with the working title, "On Imagining You are Someone Else." I realize this can lead one astray into the many different areas of philosophy, and indeed, though I'd like to specialize in Aesthetics, the professor who helped me in selecting this topic is much more predisposed to epistemology. In any case, would any of you have some suggestions on how I could make this as aesthetically-related as I possibly can? The idea that we have to identify with protagonists and other characters when we watch films, plays, read novels, etc., is certainly one I am keeping at the forefront of my mind. But I'd be very much appreciative of ideas for other trenchant ways of approaching the topic aesthetically. Please email me not at this address, but the following: anuj@hawaii.edu Thanks so much. Anuj Shah __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun May 11 08:53:46 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id IAA09187 for ; Sun, 11 May 1997 08:53:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA10552; Sun, 11 May 1997 08:50:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA14773 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 11 May 1997 08:47:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA14766 for ; Sun, 11 May 1997 08:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA11347 for ; Sun, 11 May 1997 08:47:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (c4p14.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.242.15]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id IAA22238 for ; Sun, 11 May 1997 08:47:42 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970511073648.00688e98@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sun, 11 May 1997 07:42:10 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: "Paul Redding" (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: SSLA website Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Paul Redding" (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: The Sydney Society of Literature and Aesthetics now has as a web site at . Paul Redding School of Philosophy University of Sydney __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon May 12 09:18:33 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id JAA20112 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 09:18:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA20687; Mon, 12 May 1997 09:06:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA02855 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 12 May 1997 08:59:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA02848 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 08:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA20531 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 08:59:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (c4p11.dialin.iupui.edu [134.68.242.12]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id IAA13991 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 08:58:59 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970512075305.0068d544@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 07:53:28 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Mark.Grimshaw@ucsalf.ac.uk (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: Popular Music & Technology Conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id IAA02849 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Mark.Grimshaw@ucsalf.ac.uk (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: Popular Music and Technology Conference Salford University Music Department is holding a two-day conference on popular music and technology from April 3rd. - 4th. 1998. The use of modern electronic technology permeates the production, performance and consumption of popular music yet the study of its musical implications remains relatively small and diffuse. The aim of this conference is to bring together these disparate strands of research and stimulate discussion in this dynamic and exciting field. The conference will address the following themes: Composition - composition with/by technology popular music aesthetics and technology constraints of media and formats the producer as composer the 'grain' of technology composition by committee Performance and Communication - definitions of performance producer as performer the studio in concert and performance in the studio is it 'live'? technology as mediator: from conception to consumption popular music on the Internet Redefining Musicology - studying popular music and technology the language of technology analysis of technology in popular music using technology to analyse popular music aesthetics Social, Political and Economic Issues - Global responses to Western music technology Technology as empowering or enslaving implications of the Internet the cult of technology ownership race and generation Women, Popular Music and Technology - Technology and women composers The language of technology - a male domain? Thirty minute papers (plus 10 minutes for question) will be presented in panels following the above themes. Keynote speakers are likely to include: Andrew Goodwin (University of San Francisco, USA) and Steve Jones (University of Oklahoma, USA). Papers will be refereed (blind) - at present the referee panel includes: Jurgen Brauninger (University of Natal, South Africa); David Burnand (Royal College of Music, UK) and Jon Epstein (Wake Forest University, USA). Publication of the proceedings will be sought. It is anticipated that the conference fee will be approximately £45 and that hotel accommodation will cost around £35 per night. In addition to the presentations a number of special cultural events are planned including raves, performances and other more informal gatherings. Please send c.250 word abstracts by Friday 26th September 1997 to: Mark Grimshaw, Tim Warner or Sheila Whiteley, Music Department, Salford University, Adelphi Campus, Peru Street, Salford, Manchester M3 6EQ. UK. or Mark.Grimshaw@ucsalf.ac.uk tjwarner@ucsalf.ac.uk or Sheila.Whiteley@ucsalf.ac.uk For further information concerning the Music Department visit http://www.salford.ac.uk/music/mushome1.htm -- Mark Grimshaw (Head of Music Technology & Studio Production) Music Dept. Home Page: http://www.salford.ac.uk/music/mushome1.htm Dept: Music Phone: +44 161 2956135 Ext. 56135 Fax: +44 161 833 3672 Section: School of Popular Music Recording Salford University, Manchester, UK. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon May 12 11:59:41 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA23561 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 11:59:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA28023; Mon, 12 May 1997 11:40:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA12110 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 12 May 1997 11:38:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA12103 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 11:38:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from planet.eon.net (tigger.eon.net [199.185.220.36]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id LAA07472 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 11:38:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from [198.80.52.158] (ip30.max07.ascend.planet.eon.net [198.80.52.158]) by planet.eon.net (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA18763 for ; Mon, 12 May 1997 10:37:33 -0600 Date: Mon, 12 May 1997 10:37:33 -0600 X-Sender: jmunro@mail.planet.eon.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: jmunro@planet.eon.net (joan munro) Subject: Aesthetics: Canadian Society for Aesthetics Conference Programme Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: jmunro@planet.eon.net (joan munro) Status: O X-Status: PROGRAMME Canadian Society for Aesthetics / Societe canadienne d'esthetique Fourteenth Annual Meeting / Quatorzieme rencontre annuelle Learned Societies Conference / Congres des Societes savantes Memorial University, St. John's, Newfoundland June 4 - June 6, 1997 Representant local / Local Arrangements Christopher Dennis, Memorial University The support of the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council is gratefully acknowledged La tenue du Congres de la Societe canadienne d'esthetique a ete rendue possible grace a des fonds provenantdu Conseil de recherches en sciences humaines du Canada WEDNESDAY, JUNE 4 / MERCREDI , LE 4 JUIN 8h30-9h00 Registration / Inscription 9h00 - 10h30 TABLE RONDE: 11h30 - 13h00 La Correspondance comme lieu de Communication Room S4038 Chair: Monique Langlois (histoire de l'art, UQAM) 10h45 - 13h00 ART: OLD, NEW AND ETERNAL Room S4038 Rock Art and the Aesthetic Appreciation of Natural Landscapes Thomas Heyd (Philosophy, Victoria) Teachings from the Oral Tradition and Cyberspace: Off the Page, On the Page and Into the Screen Duane Burton (International Education, Alberta) Voluminous Depth and the Rehabilitation of Sculpture as an Autonomous Art Gloria Ryder (Philosophy, Guelph) Hillerman's Landscapes : Landscape Description and Aesthetic Relevance Allen Carlson (Philosophy, Alberta) Chair: Victor Haines (English, Dawson) Lunch / Dejeuner CULTURE, POSTMODERNISM, DECONSTRUCTIONISM 14h00 - 16h00 Unsexing the Master Chef: The Relationship of Food and Room S4038 Gender in Ang Lee's "Eat, Drink, Man Woman" Kathleen Batstone (English, Manitoba) Negative Beauty: On the Religious Rhetoric of Literary Criticism Criticism Roger Seamon (English, UBC) A Deweyan Response to the Postmodern Dilemma Bella Rabinovitch (Marianapolis College) Kant's Aesthetics and the Linguistic Turn: Horne, Tooke and Saussure Leon Surette (English, Western) Chair: Gloria Ryder (Philosophy, York) 16h15 - 17h30 Aesthetics and the Cultural Literacy Debate Theme Session Room S4038 Chair: Douglas Arrell (Theatre and Drama, Winnipeg) 17h00 - 19h00 President's Reception / Reception du president (Main Dining Hall) THURSDAY, JUNE 5 / JEUDI le 5 JUIN MUSIC 9h00 - 9h50 Co-Authorship of Musical Texts and the Ritualization of Musical Room M2025 Performance Yaroslav Senyshyn (Education, Simon Fraser) Response: Paul Rice (Music, Memorial) Chair: Christopher Dennis (Memorial) 10h00 - 11h00 The Creative Act and Musical Communication Joint Session (ACS) (a panel of Canadian composers) Room M2025 Allan Gilliland (Music, Grant MacEwan), Gordon Nicholson (Music, Grant MacEwan), Clark Ross (Music, Memorial) Chair: Richard Cook (Dean: Performing, Visual and Communication Arts, Grant MacEwan) VISUAL ARTS 11h15 - 12h15 Aesthetics and Theology: Madonnas East and West Room S4038 Tom Roach (Art, St. Francis Xavier) Immanuel Kant: Teacher of the Visual Arts Mark Cheetham (Visual Arts, Western) Chair: Victor Kocay (Modern Languages, St. Francis Xavier) Lunch / Dejeuner EDUCATION AND THE ARTS 13h15- 15h15 Aesthetics, the Arts and Education at the Start of the 21st Room S4038 Century Rowland Marshall (Philosophy, St. Mary's) Teaching Aesthetics to Artists Douglas Arrell (Theatre and Drama, Winnipeg) Teaching Experimental Theater and some Questions about Theatrical Style James Hamilton (Philosophy, Kansas State) Growing Up Ironic: the Politics of Irony, Community and Education Will Buschert (Philosophy, Toronto) Chair: Roger Seamon (English, UBC) WORDS AND MEANINGS 15h30 - 17h00 Literature and Cognition: a Defence from Neuroscience Room S4038 Christine Watling (Philosophy, Alberta) Why Donald Davidson is Wrong About Metaphor Leon Surette (English, Western) Appreciating Art Appreciation Victor Haines (English, Dawson) Chair: Roy Martinez (Philosophy, Spelman) FRIDAY, JUNE 6 / VENDREDI le 6 JUIN CONTINENTAL PHILOSOPHERS 9h00 - 10h30 Aesthetics and Negativity Room S40438 Victor Kocay (Modern Languages, St. Francis Xavier) On Herr Phister as Scipio: Kierkegaard on the Art of Acting Roy Martinez (Philosophy, Spelman) The Masks of Imagination: Mirror, Lamp and Looking Glasses Stephen Boos (Interdisciplinary Studies, King's College) Chair: Bela Szabados (Philosophy, Regina) "EMINENT VICTORIANS " 10h40 - 11h40 Gerard Manley Hopkins and the Use of Poetry Joint Session (CHA) Kerry McSweeney (English, McGill) Room S4040 The Aesthetic Education of Desire: Wm. Morris, Utopianism and the Marxist Dilemma Michelle Weinroth (Ottawa) Chair: Sheryle Bergmann Drewe (Physical Education,Manitoba) 11h50 - 13h15 Annual General Meeting / Assemblee generale Room S40438 Lunch / Dejeuner 14h15- 15h30 BOOK REVIEW Room S4038 Creative Dance: Enriching Understanding by Sheryle Bergmann Drewe Participants: Francis Sparshott (Toronto), Joan Munro (Alberta) Sheryle Bergmann Drewe (Physical Education, Manitoba) Chair: Douglas Arrell (Theatre and Drama, Winnipeg) 17h30 - 19h30 SCE /CSA RECEPTION: EMMA BUTLER GALLERY, 111 GEORGE ST. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue May 13 11:00:36 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA10639 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:00:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA22504; Tue, 13 May 1997 10:56:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA14937 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 13 May 1997 10:54:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA14926 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 10:54:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccmail.sunysb.edu (ccmail.sunysb.edu [129.49.1.103]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA05132 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 10:52:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.192.51.29] (128.192.51.29) by ccmail.sunysb.edu (PMDF V5.0-6 #18385) id <01IITJ52Q31CCA19ZG@ccmail.sunysb.edu>; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:52:43 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 11:52:57 +0000 From: "David Z. Saltz" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: imagination X-Sender: dsaltz@ccmail.sunysb.edu To: RMehta1528@aol.com, aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <01IITJ531GQACA19ZG@ccmail.sunysb.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "David Z. Saltz" Status: O X-Status: Two important discussions of "imagining you are someone else" -- of which I suspect you're already aware -- are Bernard Williams' "Imagination and the Self" in _Problems of the Self_ (Cambridge UP, 1973) and Richard Wollheim's discussion of "central imagining" in _The Thread of Life_ (Harvard UP, 1984). Both argue that the project of literally imagining that one is identical to someone else is incoherent. Williams' argument links this issue to aesthetics by drawing an analogy between what one does in imagining to be someone else, and what an actor does in performing a role. His argument, I think, is very persuasive, but since Williams doesn't offer an account of what it means to "perform a role," he ultimately merely shifts the problem from imagination to acting. Kendall Walton, by the way, refutes Williams' and Wollheims' views (in particular Wollheims') in _Mimesis as Make Believe_. Since Walton's primary focus is on art, his work is particularly relevant to your concerns. ============================================================= David Z. Saltz Assistant Professor of Performance Theory & Interactive Media University of Georgia ============================================================= __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue May 13 08:38:31 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id IAA07121 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 08:38:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA03637; Tue, 13 May 1997 08:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA08856 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 13 May 1997 08:28:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA08849 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 08:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailer.syr.edu (mailer.syr.edu [128.230.20.20]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA24294 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 08:28:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from gamera.syr.edu by mailer.syr.edu (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id <0.14CE7AA0@mailer.syr.edu>; Tue, 13 May 1997 9:28:56 -0400 Received: from localhost (ewschmid@localhost) by gamera.syr.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA08939; Tue, 13 May 1997 09:28:52 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: gamera.syr.edu: ewschmid owned process doing -bs Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 09:28:51 -0400 (EDT) From: "Erik W. Schmidt" X-Sender: ewschmid@gamera.syr.edu To: RMehta1528@aol.com cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Imagination Diss. In-Reply-To: <970510012828_1618848247@emout19.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Erik W. Schmidt" Status: O X-Status: There is of course a lively literature raising questions on the transcendental "I" in response to Kant's paralogism (i.e., the fact that one seems to be able to understand more radical counterfactual thoughts about oneself than about anything else). see for example: Zeno Vendler, "A note to the paralogisms" in G. Ryle (ed) Contemporary Aspects of Philosophy (Oriel Press: 1977) p.111-121 Anscombe "The First Person", in S. Gutttenplan (ed.) Mind and Language (Oxford: 1975) p45-65 J.L. Mackie, "The Transcendental 'I'" in his Persons and Values (Oxford: 1985) p.15-27 Zeno Vendler, "A note to the Paralogisms: in G. Ryle (ed) Contemporary Aspects of Philosophy (Oriel: 1977) p.111-121 Most of these articles involve the way in which we seem to be able to float the concept of oneself off all the fact about oneself, in a way that one cannot do the concept of anything else. This is not directly aesthetics related, but it seems that there may be some Personal Identity issues related to your topic. Erik Schmidt __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue May 13 11:43:55 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA12028 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:43:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA10525; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:40:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA16976 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:39:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA16964 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:39:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.lancs.ac.uk (mail2.lancs.ac.uk [148.88.8.13]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id LAA08304 for ; Tue, 13 May 1997 11:38:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from central-comms.lancs.ac.uk (actually host wins1.lancs.ac.uk) by mail2.lancs.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 13 May 1997 17:09:42 +0100 Received: by central-comms.lancs.ac.uk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC5FC0.621ABBD0@central-comms.lancs.ac.uk>; Tue, 13 May 1997 17:09:14 +0100 Message-ID: From: BRADY E To: "'aesthetics@indiana.edu'" Subject: Aesthetics: British Society of Aesthetics Northern Region conference Date: Tue, 13 May 1997 16:13:00 +0100 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 Encoding: 46 TEXT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: BRADY E Status: O X-Status: BRITISH SOCIETY OF AESTHETICS NORTHERN REGION MEETING Monday 2nd June Senior Common Room, Furness College, Lancaster University Programme 10:15 - 11:15 +Stalking the Duck/Rabbit+ Derek Matravers, Open University 11:30 - 12:30 +Glenn Gould and the Philosophy of Recording+ Andy Hamilton, University of Durham LUNCH 1:30 - 2:30 +The Kitsch, the Chic, the Naff and the 'Naice'' Ian Ground, University of Newcastle upon Tyne TEA BREAK 3:00 - 4:00 Speaker to be confirmed Registration fee (including lunch): strlg10 (strlg 5 students) Cheques payable to +University of Leeds+ should be sent by 26th May to: Emily Brady Department of Philosophy Furness College Lancaster University Lancaster LA1 4YG England tel. 01524-592495; fax: 01524-592503 Email: E.Brady@lancaster.ac.uk Financial support from the British Society of Aesthetics is gratefully acknowledged. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 15 10:54:50 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id KAA22448 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:54:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA17223; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:49:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA20928 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:43:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA20920 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:43:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA19339 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:43:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id KAA11094 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 10:43:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970515104117.006bcb48@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 10:45:57 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: G M K HUNT (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: phil/lit conference Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id KAA20921 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: G M K HUNT (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: UNIVERSITY OF WARWICK CENTRE FOR RESEARCH IN PHILOSOPHY & LITERATURE THE ENDS OF ART 13-14 JUNE 1997 Speakers include: John Sallis, Pennsylvania State University: Kandinsky And The End Of Art Rebecca Comay, University of Toronto: Niobe’s Tears Michel Haar, Université de Paris-I Sorbonne: The Voice Of The Poem Eliane Escoubas, Université de Paris-Créteil: From Appearance To Appearing: An Endless And Aimless Look Into Painting Michael Neuman, The Slade School of Arts & Visiting Senior Research Fellowship at the Catholic University of Brabant at Tilburg: Repetition At The End Of Art Paul Davies, University of Sussex: Art And Intuition Alex Garcia Düttman: From A Redemptive Point Of View Andrew Benjamin, University of Warwick: Art And Its Objects: The Insistent End Of Art Stephen Houlgate, University of Warwick: Hegel And The End Of Art Note: Tea and coffee will be provided during the conference; meals and accommodation will not. Registration fees are as follows: Waged £25.00, Unwaged £10.00, Warwick Students £6.00. THE ENDS OF ART 13-14 JUNE 1997 Please print or write clearly Name ____________________________ Title (Prof., Dr., etc)________________ Address__________________________ Registration Fee  £25 waged ___________________________  £10 unwaged ___________________________ £ 6 Warwick Students To register, please complete the details above, ticking the appropriate box, and send this form with cheque for the total amount, made payable to `The University of Warwick’, to: The Ends of Art,, Centre for Research in Philosophy & Literature, University of Warwick, Coventry CV4 7AL. For further information please contact Mrs Heather Jones, The Secretary, Centre for Research in Philosophy & Literature, University of Warwick, Coventry CV4 7AL. Tel: 01203 522582, Fax: 01203 523019, email: pyrbo@snow.csv.warwick.ac.uk. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 15 11:16:12 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA24167 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:16:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA01599; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:07:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA21672 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:07:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA21665 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:07:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from homer.louisville.edu (homer.louisville.edu [136.165.1.20]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA08928 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:07:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from default (ppp0136.remote.louisville.edu [136.165.221.37]) by homer.louisville.edu (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA12122 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 12:06:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970515120750.00831520@homer.louisville.edu> X-Sender: paalpe01@homer.louisville.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 12:07:50 -0400 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Philip Alperson Subject: Aesthetics: CFP: Aesthetics and Popular Culture Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id LAA21666 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Philip Alperson Status: O X-Status: CALL FOR PAPERS Aesthetics and Popular Culture The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism announces a call for papers for a special issue of the Journal on the topic of "Aesthetics and Popular Culture". The issue will be devoted to the discussion of theoretical issues arising in connection with popular culture, mass culture, mass media, their appreciation and criticism. The special issue will include papers by Noël Carroll, Ted Cohen, Theodore Gracyk, and Douglas Kellner. We invite submissions that consider the aesthetic assessment of all aspects of popular and mass culture, papers that treat how more general aesthetic categories might be utilized or revised to deal with popular phenomena, as well as inquiries into the issue whether popular culture, or aspects of it, call into question the notion that there are any experiences or values that can properly identified as distinctively aesthetic. Papers might focus on specific movements or genres in popular culture or more general theoretical issues, including the relevance of disciplines such as semiotics and cultural studies to aesthetics and vice versa. Suggested topics include: the aesthetics of popular media (e.g., film, television, video, and computer graphics); the analysis of cultural phenomena not normally categorized as art or as fine art or considered to be on the margins of these categories, (such as rock, jazz, rap, and country music; fashion, advertising, food, sports, travel, slang, stand-up comedy and other modes of popular expression, and domestic environments); and cross-cultural and non-Western popular activities, events, and affairs. Papers may be focused on current phenomena, but historical papers are also welcome. Submissions should be in triplicate and accompanied by brief abstracts. Deadline: 1 October 1997 Inquiries: Kathleen Higgins and Joel Rudinow (Guest Editors) Kathleen Higgins Department of Philosophy University of Texas-Austin Austin, Texas 78712-1180 Telephone: (512) 471-4857 FAX: (512) 471-4806 INTERNET: PLAC645@UTXVMS.CC.UTEXAS.EDU Joel Rudinow Department of Philosophy Sonoma State University Rohnert Park, California 94926-3609 Telephone: (707) 664-2277 FAX: (707) 664-2505 INTERNET: RUDINOW@SONOMA.EDU ____________________________________________________ Philip Alperson, JAAC, Dept. of Philosophy, University of Louisville Tel.: 502.852.0458 JAAC: 502.852.4768 FAX: 502.852.0459 http://www.louisville.edu/a-s/philosophy E-mail: paalpe01@homer.louisville.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 15 12:22:13 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA26692 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 12:22:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA01376; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:14:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA21882 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:13:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA21875 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:13:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA23386 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:13:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from iuk ([149.163.1.86]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id LAA27521 for ; Thu, 15 May 1997 11:13:04 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970515111443.006d386c@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 15 May 1997 11:15:13 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: dom lopes Subject: Aesthetics: PHILOsophical FIction List Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: dom lopes Status: O X-Status: PhiloFi-L is a list on behalf and request of afficionados of the E-mail PhiloFi series 'Logs of JD Flora' which had thousand of readers in the two years since its inception in July 1995. See http://www.newciv.org/jdf-logs/ Topics, however, are not limited to those brought up in the 'Logs of JD Flora' which were mainly dealing with Eastern and Western religions and philosophical concepts. The discussions mainly concentrate on the question of how philosophical concepts can be conveyed in the form of stories in general and how the storytelling of past writers, from Aesop and Buddha to Voltaire and Heinlein, has influenced today's cultures and perspectives. The list is open and unmoderated. It will be guided by Maria Loren, the list administratress of the 'Logs of JD Flora' (mloren@newciv.org). To subscribe to PhiloFi-L, send a message to majordomo@newciv.org with the BODY subscribe PhiloFi-L To subscribe to the e-mail series (one episode every other day) of the notorious and off-beat 'Logs of JD Flora', send a message to jdf-logs@newciv.org with the BODY: subscribe Owner: Maria Loren mloren@newciv.org __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon May 19 22:44:05 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id WAA03309 for ; Mon, 19 May 1997 22:44:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA05735; Mon, 19 May 1997 22:39:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA18509 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 19 May 1997 22:35:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA18502 for ; Mon, 19 May 1997 22:35:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cantva.canterbury.ac.nz (SYSTEM@cantva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.30.3]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA21140 for ; Mon, 19 May 1997 22:35:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cantna.canterbury.ac.nz ("port 1682"@cantna.canterbury.ac.nz) by csc.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V5.1-7 #17207) with ESMTP id <01IJ3I9EI60O8WWKKG@csc.canterbury.ac.nz> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Tue, 20 May 1997 15:34:43 +1200 Received: from CANTNA/SpoolDir by cantna.canterbury.ac.nz (Mercury 1.21); Tue, 20 May 1997 15:34:27 +1300 Received: from SpoolDir by CANTNA (Mercury 1.30); Tue, 20 May 1997 15:23:20 +1300 Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:26:11 +1300 From: Denis Dutton Subject: Aesthetics: Bad Writing Contest To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <1FB378533BF@cantna.canterbury.ac.nz> Organization: University of Canterbury (NZ) X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail/Mac (v2.1.2) Priority: normal Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Denis Dutton Status: O X-Status: Feel free to forward this message to other lists or internet sites. --Bad Writing Contest Winners-- We are pleased to announce winners of the third Bad Writing Contest, sponsored by the scholarly journal Philosophy and Literature and its internet discussion group, PHIL-LIT. The Bad Writing Contest attempts to locate the ugliest, most stylistically awful passage found in a scholarly book or article published in the last few years. Ordinary journalism, fiction, etc. are not eligible, nor are parodies: entries must be non-ironic, from actual serious academic journals or books. In a field where unintended self-parody is so widespread, deliberate send-ups are hardly necessary. This year's winning passages include prose published by established, successful scholars, experts who have doubtless labored for years to write like this. Obscurity, after all, can be a notable achievement. The fame and influence of writers such as Hegel, Heidegger, or Derrida rests in part on their mysterious impenetrability. On the other hand, as a cynic once remarked, John Stuart Mill never attained Hegel's prestige because people found out what he meant. This is a mistake the authors of our our prize-winning passages seem determined to avoid. * The first prize goes to a sentence by the distinguished scholar Fredric Jameson, a man who on the evidence of his many admired books finds it difficult to write intelligibly and impossible to write well. Whether this is because of the deep complexity of Professor Jameson's ideas or their patent absurdity is something readers must decide for themselves. Here, spotted for us by Dave Roden of Central Queensland University in Australia, is the very first sentence of Professor Jameson's book, Signatures of the Visible (Routledge, 1990, p. 1): "The visual is _essentially_ pornographic, which is to say that it has its end in rapt, mindless fascination; thinking about its attributes becomes an adjunct to that, if it is unwilling to betray its object; while the most austere films necessarily draw their energy from the attempt to repress their own excess (rather than from the more thankless effort to discipline the viewer)." The appreciative Mr. Roden says it is "good of Jameson to let readers know so soon what they're up against." We cannot see what the second "that" in the sentence refers to. And imagine if that uncertain "it" were willing to betray its object? The reader may be baffled, but then any author who thinks visual experience is essentially pornographic suffers confusions no lessons in English composition are going to fix. * If reading Fredric Jameson is like swimming through cold porridge, there are writers who strive for incoherence of a more bombastic kind. Here is our next winner, which was found for us by Professor Cynthia Freeland of the University of Houston. The writer is Professor Rob Wilson: "If such a sublime cyborg would insinuate the future as post-Fordist subject, his palpably masochistic locations as ecstatic agent of the sublime superstate need to be decoded as the 'now-all-but-unreadable DNA' of a fast deindustrializing Detroit, just as his Robocop-like strategy of carceral negotiation and street control remains the tirelessly American one of inflicting regeneration through violence upon the racially heteroglossic wilds and others of the inner city." This colorful gem appears in a collection called The Administration of Aesthetics: Censorship, Political Criticism, and the Public Sphere, edited by Richard Burt "for the Social Text Collective" (University of Minnesota Press, 1994). Social Text is the cultural studies journal made famous by publishing physicist Alan Sokal's jargon-ridden parody of postmodernist writing. If this essay is Social Text's idea of scholarship, little wonder it fell for Sokal's hoax. (And precisely what are "racially heteroglossic wilds and others"?) Dr. Wilson is an English professor, of course. * That incomprehensibility need not be long-winded is proven by our third-place winner, sent in by Richard Collier, who teaches at Mt. Royal College in Canada. It's a sentence from Making Monstrous: Frankenstein, Criticism, Theory, by Fred Botting (Manchester University Press, 1991): "The lure of imaginary totality is momentarily frozen before the dialectic of desire hastens on within symbolic chains." * Still, prolixity is often a feature of bad writing, as demonstrated by our next winner, a passage submitted by Mindy Michels, a graduate anthropology student at the American University in Washington, D.C. It's written by Stephen Tyler, and appears in Writing Culture, edited (it says) by James Clifford and George E. Marcus (University of California Press, 1986). Of what he calls "post-modern ethnography," Professor Tyler says: "It thus relativizes discourse not just to form--that familiar perversion of the modernist; nor to authorial intention--that conceit of the romantics; nor to a foundational world beyond discourse--that desperate grasping for a separate reality of the mystic and scientist alike; nor even to history and ideology--those refuges of the hermeneuticist; nor even less to language--that hypostasized abstraction of the linguist; nor, ultimately, even to discourse--that Nietzschean playground of world-lost signifiers of the structuralist and grammatologist, but to all or none of these, for it is anarchic, though not for the sake of anarchy but because it refuses to become a fetishized object among objects--to be dismantled, compared, classified, and neutered in that parody of scientific scrutiny known as criticism." * A bemused Dr. Tim van Gelder of the University of Melbourne sent us the following sentence: "Since thought is seen to be 'rhizomatic' rather than 'arboreal,' the movement of differentiation and becoming is already imbued with its own positive trajectory." It's from The Continental Philosophy Reader, edited by Richard Kearney and Mara Rainwater (Routledge, 1996), part of an editors' introduction intended to help students understand a chapter. Dr. van Gelder says, "No undergraduate student I've given this introduction to has been able to make the slightest sense of it. Neither has any faculty member." * An assistant professor of English at a U.S. university (she prefers to remain anonymous) entered this choice morsel from The Cultures of United States Imperialism, by Donald Pease (Duke University Press, 1993): "When interpreted from within the ideal space of the myth-symbol school, Americanist masterworks legitimized hegemonic understanding of American history expressively totalized in the metanarrative that had been reconstructed out of (or more accurately read into) these masterworks." While the entrant says she enjoys the Bad Writing Contest, she's fearful her career prospects would suffer were she to be identified as hostile to the turn by English departments toward movies and soap operas. We quite understand: these days the worst writers in universities are English professors who ignore "the canon" in order to apply tepid, vaguely Marxist gobbledygook to popular culture. Young academics who'd like a career had best go along. * But it's not just the English department where jargon and incoherence are increasingly the fashion. Susan Katz Karp, a graduate student at Queens College in New York City, found this choice nugget showing that forward-thinking art historians are doing their desperate best to import postmodern style into their discipline. It's from an article by Professor Anna C. Chave, writing in Art Bulletin (December 1994): "To this end, I must underline the phallicism endemic to the dialectics of penetration routinely deployed in descriptions of pictorial space and the operations of spectatorship." The next round of the Bad Writing Contest, results to be announced in 1998, is now open with a deadline of December 31, 1997. There is an endless ocean of pretentious, turgid academic prose being added to daily, and we'll continue to celebrate it. ********************************** Dr. Denis Dutton Senior Lecturer in the Philosophy of Art Editor, Philosophy and Literature University of Canterbury, Christchurch, New Zealand Phones: 64-3-366-7001, ext. 8154 d.dutton@fina.canterbury.ac.nz __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue May 20 14:27:15 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id OAA04308 for ; Tue, 20 May 1997 14:27:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA21846; Tue, 20 May 1997 14:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA06483 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 20 May 1997 14:12:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA06472 for ; Tue, 20 May 1997 14:12:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.52.6]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id OAA32089 for ; Tue, 20 May 1997 14:12:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from 204.17.220.5 (pm1-14.wmbg.widomaker.com) by corn.cso.niu.edu with SMTP id AA08489 (5.67a/IDA-1.5 for ); Tue, 20 May 1997 14:11:57 -0500 Message-Id: <3381F783.5796@niu.edu> Date: Tue, 20 May 1997 15:12:03 -0400 From: James Dye <"James Dye"@corn.cso.niu.edu> Organization: Northern Illinois University X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (OS/2; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Cc: dpcole@facstaff.wm.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Call for Papers--SSPP Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Dye <"James Dye"@corn.cso.niu.edu> Status: O X-Status: Southern Society for Philosophy and Psychology http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~sspp Call for Papers in Philosophy The Southern Society for Philosophy and Psychology announces a call for papers for its ninetieth annual meetings to take place April 9-11, 1998 in New Orleans, Louisiana. Founded in 1904, SSPP meetings feature concurrent programs in philosophy and psychology as well as plenary sessions jointly sponsored by the two program committees. By tradition, the two programs are not limited to the interface between philosophy and psychology, but are open to all areas of research pertinent to each discipline. The deadline for submissions in philosophy October 15, 1996 (postmarked). All papers submitted and presented should employ gender-inclusive language. The Philosophy Program Committee welcomes submissions of papers in any area of philosophy. Papers should not exceed 10 double-spaced pages using 10- to 12-point font and should include a short abstract of no more than 200 words. Self-references should be deleted to permit blind-reviewing; authors should indicate their identity only on the cover sheet accompanying their manuscript. Only submissions from members or applicants for membership will be considered. Send requests for application forms, queries and triplicate copies of submissions with an SSPP submission form to the Philosophy Program Committee Chair: Dr. Valerie Hardcastle, Program Chair, Philosophy Department of Philosophy Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA 24061 E-mail: valerie@vt.edu Certain papers may be selected for commentary, depending on overall programmatic considerations. People who wish to comment on a paper or chair a session may volunteer by contacting Dr. Hardcastle directly. Each year the Southern Society for Philosophy and Psychology awards the Richard M. Griffith Memorial Award for papers of greatest excellence, one in philosophy and one in psychology, presented by a recent Ph.D. recipient or candidate at the annual meeting. Winners are announced at the business meeting which concludes the conference. Those who have received their Ph.D. during the past five years or who are Ph.D. candidates are eligible to compete for the award. The award carries a $200 cash prize and an engraved paperweight. Those wishing to have their papers considered for the Griffith Award should send four additional copies of their submissions (seven copies in all) to the Program Chair. The Society also awards travel grants of $100 to at least two graduate students, one in philosophy, one in psychology, whose work is accepted for the annual program. Additional grants may be available pending donations from the membership. Students can apply for these grants simply by indicating their eligibility on their SSPP submission form. To be eligible for a travel grant, the applicant must be a graduate student in a doctoral program in philosophy or psychology whose submission conforms to the SSPP submission requirements relevant to their discipline. Applicants may be either the sole or joint authors of the paper or abstract they submit. The travel grants will be awarded on a competitive basis by the Program Committee of each discipline, whose chair will notify recipients at the same time they are sent their acceptance notices for the program. For more information about membership, the annual Griffith Award, or about the 1995 conference, contact the Secretary of the Society, Dr. David Washburn, Department of Psychology, Georgia State University, Atlanta, GA 30303. Tel. 404-244-5845, e-mail dwashburn@gsu.edu or visit the sspp home page at http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~sspp. -- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed May 21 12:45:28 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA21993 for ; Wed, 21 May 1997 12:45:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA29352 for ; Wed, 21 May 1997 12:45:28 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA04408 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 21 May 1997 10:54:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA04401 for ; Wed, 21 May 1997 10:54:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from radcliffe.harvard.edu (radcliffe.harvard.edu [128.103.230.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id KAA18628 for ; Wed, 21 May 1997 10:54:20 -0500 (EST) Received: by radcliffe.harvard.edu (5.0/SMI-SVR4) id AA04292; Wed, 21 May 1997 11:54:57 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 May 1997 11:54:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Patricia Herzog X-Sender: herzog@radcliffe To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: syllabus suggestions for the beautiful and the good Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Patricia Herzog Status: O X-Status: I am currently devising a course syllabus for a freshman seminar on the beautiful and the good. I would greatly appreciate hearing from anyone with recommendations for texts, classical or contemporary. Thanks in advance, Patricia Herzog Brandeis University __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 22 08:51:39 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id IAA03845 for ; Thu, 22 May 1997 08:51:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA22430 for ; Thu, 22 May 1997 08:51:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA03763 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 22 May 1997 07:35:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA03756 for ; Thu, 22 May 1997 07:34:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from goggins.bath.ac.uk (pp@goggins.bath.ac.uk [138.38.32.13]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA26461 for ; Thu, 22 May 1997 07:34:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from bath.ac.uk (actually host ss1.bath.ac.uk) by goggins.bath.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Thu, 22 May 1997 11:43:08 +0100 Received: from abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk by ss1.bath.ac.uk id aa00346; 22 May 97 11:43 BST Received: by abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk with Microsoft Mail id <01BC66A4.E3A45A40@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk>; Thu, 22 May 1997 11:40:03 +-100 Message-ID: <01BC66A4.E3A45A40@abpc-ab.bath.ac.uk> From: Andrew Ballantyne To: "aesthetics@indiana.edu" Subject: RE: Aesthetics: syllabus suggestions for the beautiful and the good Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 11:40:02 +-100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id HAA03757 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Andrew Ballantyne Status: O X-Status: Patricia: There is an attempt to relate beauty to political freedom and Epicurean morals in late Georgian England in my recently published book "Architecture, landscape and liberty: Richard Payne Knight and the picturesque" (Cambridge University Press) ISBN 0 521 46200 2 Andrew Ballantyne ---------- From: Patricia Herzog[SMTP:herzog@radcliffe.harvard.edu] Sent: 21 May 1997 12:54 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: syllabus suggestions for the beautiful and the good I am currently devising a course syllabus for a freshman seminar on the beautiful and the good. I would greatly appreciate hearing from anyone with recommendations for texts, classical or contemporary. Thanks in advance, Patricia Herzog Brandeis University __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asa __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu May 22 11:24:51 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA07233 for ; Thu, 22 May 1997 11:24:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA17151 for ; Thu, 22 May 1997 11:24:52 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA07079 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 22 May 1997 09:26:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA07063 for ; Thu, 22 May 1997 09:26:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.202]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA17407 for ; Thu, 22 May 1997 09:26:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from ghekko.iupui.edu (ip220-141.cc.interlog.com [207.34.220.141]) by hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3/1.8shakes) with SMTP id JAA10697 for ; Thu, 22 May 1997 09:26:31 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970522081457.0069a3dc@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu> X-Sender: dlopes@hamlet.ucs.indiana.edu X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 22 May 1997 08:20:56 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Bruce Edmonds (by way of dom lopes ) Subject: Aesthetics: New ejournal on Memetic Models Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Bruce Edmonds (by way of dom lopes ) Status: O X-Status: Journal of Memetics - Evolutionary Models of Information Transmission (JOM-EMIT) JOM-EMIT is a new scientific journal published exclusively on the Web, at URL: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit The journal has no subscription fee. JOM-EMIT is the first peer-reviewed journal devoted to the development of the memetic perspective. This perspective looks at culture, communication and information transmission as evolutionary phenomena, governed by the mechanisms of variation, replication and selection. The concept of "meme" was proposed by Richard Dawkins as 'a unit of cultural transmission, or a unit of imitation'. The vagueness of this initial description may explain the present diversity of views on what a meme really is, and how the memetic model can be used. JOM-EMIT wishes to clarify these issues, by stimulating a constructive dialogue between the active researchers in the field. More specifically JOM-EMIT seeks to discuss the following topics related to memetics: - Comparisons of different mechanisms and models of evolutionary processes, possibly in distinct fields of inquiry. - Philosophical or theoretical issues concerning epistemology and evolution - Boundaries of the evolutionary approach - Empirical research on memetic processes - Models of meme generation and meme spread - Fundamental approaches aimed at structuring the field of memetics as a science Editorial Board: Gary Boyd, Bruce Edmonds (also publisher), Liane Gabora, Francis Heylighen, Mark Mills, Hans-Cees Speel (managing editor), and Mario Vaneechoutte. Advisory Board: Gary Cziko, Richard Dawkins, Daniel Dennett, David Hull, and Aaron Lynch. The JOM-EMIT site contains two mailing lists: an announcement list for the distribution of abstracts of new papers to all subscribers, and a discussion list for open debate on the submitted papers, and other memetics related issues. You can subscribe to these lists via the Journal's home page. CONTENTS The first issue (May-September) of JOM-EMIT is now online. It contains four papers and one book review: "The Six Essentials? Minimal Requirements for the Darwinian Bootstrapping of Quality" by William H. Calvin "Cultural R/K Selection" by Agner Fog "The Origin and Evolution of Culture and Creativity" by Liane Gabora "Macromemetics and the Re-unification of Philosophy" by Derek Gatherer Book review: "Evolutionary Paradigms in the Social Sciences. Special Issue, International Studies Quarterly 40, (September, 1996)" by Francis A. Beer. New papers will appear continuously when they are accepted for publication. CALL FOR PAPERS We invite interested authors to submit papers for the journal, along with information on the author, his/her address and affiliations, at the journal's email address: jom-emit@sepa.tudelft.nl All submitted papers will be anonymously reviewed. They will only be accepted for publication if approved by at least two referees. Controversial papers of high quality can be followed by commentaries by request of the author after they are published (similar to the commentary structure the "Brain and Behavioral Sciences" uses, although JOM-EMIT uses commentary only as an option after a paper is already published). This means that a number of peers write a short comment, to which the author can reply in a concluding short paper. We also wish to invite letters which criticize published papers, and book reviews relevant to the journal's aims. Further information for authors can be found at the web address: http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/jom-emit/ifa.html --------------------------------------------------- Bruce Edmonds, Centre for Policy Modelling, Manchester Metropolitan University, Aytoun Bldg., Aytoun St., Manchester, M1 3GH. UK. Tel: +44 161 247 6479 Fax: +44 161 247 6802 http://www.cpm.mmu.ac.uk/~bruce __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri May 23 21:46:53 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id VAA15469 for ; Fri, 23 May 1997 21:46:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA30209 for ; Fri, 23 May 1997 21:46:53 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA17249 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 23 May 1997 20:36:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA17240 for ; Fri, 23 May 1997 20:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [206.190.65.4]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA17111 for ; Fri, 23 May 1997 20:36:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (sc171-165.thegrid.net [207.114.171.165]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id SAA26371; Fri, 23 May 1997 18:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1FB378533BF@cantna.canterbury.ac.nz> References: Conversation <1FB378533BF@cantna.canterbury.ac.nz> with last message <1FB378533BF@cantna.canterbury.ac.nz> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Denis Dutton" , aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Marcus Verhaegh" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Bad Writing Contest Date: Fri, 23 May 97 17:33:12 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id UAA17241 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Marcus Verhaegh" Status: O X-Status: The following sentence is singled-out in the "Bad Writing Contest," as an example of (non-prolix) incomprehensibility, as well as of generaly stylisitc awfulness: "The lure of imaginary totality is momentarily frozen before the dialectic of desire hastens on within symbolic chains." {from _Making Monstrous: Frankenstein, Criticism, Theory_, by Fred Botting (Manchester University Press, 1991)} I find this an odd-sentence to focus on. It reads well enough, even if the phrase "dialectic of desire" does push the sentence over the top. But this over-the-topness wasn't quite laugh-out-loud funny; it wasn't even close. It just calls for a minor adjustment. (In fact, I would have to say that if this is the stylistically-worst which is out there, then the contemporary English-language academic community can be proud.) As to the sentence's incomprehensibility: Yes, it (like, I would venture, a majority of sentences in philosophy, literary theory, etc.) is rather hard to understand when ripped out of context. That said, I can imagine this sentence, or at least one very much like it, working just fine in context. For instance, I can imagine the sentence as refering to a desire to grasp phenomenal nature in its totality, and thereby acheive a vision of what Hegel calls the Absolute. I can further imagine the sentence as referring to an experience of the impossibility of such a totalizing comprehension of nature, an experience which Kant describes as an experience of the sublime. (See Section 29 of the _Critique of Judgment_). Finally, I can imagine the sentence, with its mention of "symbolic chains," as referring to a writerly response to a desire, or longing, for an absent time, person, etc., where one attempts to "re-live" or "re-present" the germane period of the past through literarture--even while one is aware of the impossibilities bound up with such "re-presentation." (See Lyotard, "Answering the Question: What is Postmodernism?," where he relates modern art to an "aesthetic of sublimity": modern art presents the fact there is exists the un-presentable, but has, unlike "pos! ! tmodern" art, a "nostalgia" for this un-presentable.) I relate such doomed preserving attempts of writers to the problems of totalizing thought, in that the desire to "re-live" the past through writing involves, it seems to me, a desire to capture the past in its totality, rather than seeing it a having, through literature, only a kind of ghostly demi-life. Now, the author of this sentence was probably actually writing about something else entirely. I have no idea. (Moreover, I wonder what Frankenstein could possibly have to do with "imaginary totality," etc..) But this is not terribly relevant, since what I am claiming, and trying to make evident, is that the sentence in question might very easily be quite comphrensible in context, even if it is perhaps inscribed within a fairly involved body of theory. Is such "involvement" really such a reprehensible quality for academic writing? The majority of selections in the "Bad Writing Contest," I found very good, and very amusing, examples of, well, bad writing. There were, however, at least one or two more I was a little skeptical about, in that I doubted they would really be all that opaque in context. Moreover, I found the "lessons" we are apparently supposed to learn from these example questionable, both in their content and the way such "bad writing" allegedly demonstrates them. For instance, while I found the claim that "as a cynic once remarked, John Stuart Mill never attained Hegel's prestige because people found out what he meant," hilarious, I also found it flat-out wrong. (Oddly, this made it is less hilarious.) J.S. Mill, while no slouch, just does not provide an important a philosophical view as does Hegel. Moreover, the reasoning to arrive at this false conclusion is also wrong. Hegel's "impenetrability" may have helped helped him to some degree, in the sense that his writing, like Derrida's, has a kind of productive ambiguity which the more postivistic-minded Mill's does not possess. But, in recent years at least, it is precisely the difficulty of Hegel's writing that is keeping it from getting the degree of (continued) attention it deserves from English-language philosophers. We seem instead still trasfixed by the (in philosophy journals) ubiquitous gobbledygook of logic-fetishists. (Things like: "Reverse-order Analyses of X-n Belief! ! States in Forward Quarter Retorgrade Cognition: How Music Refers to Emotion," come to mind unbidden.) Likewise I found the following selection+commentary a little suspect: "* An assistant professor of English at a U.S. university (she prefers to remain anonymous) entered this choice morsel from The Cultures of United States Imperialism, by Donald Pease (Duke University Press, 1993): 'When interpreted from within the ideal space of the myth-symbol school, Americanist masterworks legitimized hegemonic understanding of American history expressively totalized in the metanarrative that had been reconstructed out of (or more accurately read into) these masterworks.' While the entrant says she enjoys the Bad Writing Contest, she's fearful her career prospects would suffer were she to be identified as hostile to the turn by English departments toward movies and soap operas. We quite understand: these days the worst writers in universities are English professors who ignore 'the canon' in order to apply tepid, vaguely Marxist gobbledygook to popular culture. Young academics who'd like a career had best go along." Thanks, I will. Though of course I doubt that I would term all--or anything close to all--of what the author refers to as "gobbledygook" the same. And I am almost totally sure that my vision of truly-foul "gobbledygook" varies from his to a fair extent. Putting aside the question of "gobbledygook," I don't feel particularly sympathetic to the implication in this commentary that "young academics" are being forced to focus on pop-culture beyond the degree the subject is due. I don't really known very much about the pressures of English departments, but I am convinced pop-culture could use much more academic analysis and interpretation, and that Critical theory and other Contintental(-derived) currents of thought provide crucial tools for doing so. Moreover, it seems to me that in most--perhaps even almost all--philosophy departments, there is very little interest in aesthetic issues relating to pop culture. This is being rectified, but there is still a ways to go. --Marcus Verhaegh Student, Free University Amsterdam __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat May 24 00:56:22 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id AAA15999 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 00:56:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA22032 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 00:56:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA20057 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 23 May 1997 23:56:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA20050 for ; Fri, 23 May 1997 23:56:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [206.190.65.4]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA30751 for ; Fri, 23 May 1997 23:56:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (sc81-142.thegrid.net [206.190.81.142]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA21679 for ; Fri, 23 May 1997 21:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Marcus Verhaegh" Subject: Aesthetics: Aesthetics; Bad Writing Contest; repost Date: Fri, 23 May 97 20:53:30 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id XAA20051 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Marcus Verhaegh" Status: O X-Status: This is a repost. I received a complaint about a lack of carriage returns occuring in the original posting. I cannot detect the problem, but I will stick some CR's in manually, if this will avoid _really_ bad writing. ****** The following sentence is singled-out in the "Bad Writing Contest," as an example of (non-prolix) incomprehensibility, as well as of generaly stylisitc awfulness: "The lure of imaginary totality is momentarily frozen before the dialectic of desire hastens on within symbolic chains." {from _Making Monstrous: Frankenstein, Criticism, Theory_, by Fred Botting (Manchester University Press, 1991)} I find this an odd-sentence to focus on. It reads well enough, even if the phrase "dialectic of desire" does push the sentence over the top. But this over-the-topness wasn't quite laugh-out-loud funny; it wasn't even close. It just calls for a minor adjustment. (In fact, I would have to say that if this is the stylistically-worst which is out there, then the contemporary English-language academic community can be proud.) As to the sentence's incomprehensibility: Yes, it (like, I would venture, a majority of sentences in philosophy, literary theory, etc.) is rather hard to understand when ripped out of context. That said, I can imagine this sentence, or at least one very much like it, working just fine in context. For instance, I can imagine the sentence as refering to a desire to grasp phenomenal nature in its totality, and thereby acheive a vision of what Hegel calls the Absolute. I can further imagine the sentence as referring to an experience of the impossibility of such a totalizing comprehension of nature, an experience which Kant describes as an experience of the sublime. (See Section 29 of the _Critique of Judgment_). Finally, I can imagine the sentence, with its mention of "symbolic chains," as referring to a writerly response to a desire, or longing, for an absent time, person, etc., where one attempts to "re-live" or "re-present" the germane period of the past through literarture--even while one is aware of the impossibilities bound up with such "re-presentation." (See Lyotard, "Answering the Question: What is Postmodernism?," where he relates modern art to an "aesthetic of sublimity": modern art presents the fact there is exists the un-presentable, but has, unlike "postmodern" art, a "nostalgia" for this un-presentable.) I relate such doomed preserving attempts of writers to the problems of totalizing thought, in that the desire to "re-live" the past through writing involves, it seems to me, a desire to capture the past in its totality, rather than seeing it a having, through literature, only a kind of ghostly demi-life. Now, the author of this sentence was probably actually writing about something else entirely. I have no idea. (Moreover, I wonder what Frankenstein could possibly have to do with "imaginary totality," etc..) But this is not terribly relevant, since what I am claiming, and trying to make evident, is that the sentence in question might very easily be quite comphrensible in context, even if it is perhaps inscribed within a fairly involved body of theory. Is such "involvement" really such a reprehensible quality for academic writing? The majority of selections in the "Bad Writing Contest," I found very good, and very amusing, examples of, well, bad writing. There were, however, at least one or two more I was a little skeptical about, in that I doubted they would really be all that opaque in context. Moreover, I found the "lessons" we are apparently supposed to learn from these example questionable, both in their content and the way such "bad writing" allegedly demonstrates them. For instance, while I found the claim that "as a cynic once remarked, John Stuart Mill never attained Hegel's prestige because people found out what he meant," hilarious, I also found it flat-out wrong. (Oddly, this made it is less hilarious.) J.S. Mill, while no slouch, just does not provide an important a philosophical view as does Hegel. Moreover, the reasoning to arrive at this false conclusion is also wrong. Hegel's "impenetrability" may have helped helped him to some degree, in the sense that his writing, like Derrida's, has a kind of productive ambiguity which the more postivistic-minded Mill's does not possess. But, in recent years at least, it is precisely the difficulty of Hegel's writing that is keeping it from getting the degree of (continued) attention it deserves from English-language philosophers. We seem instead still trasfixed by the (in philosophy journals) ubiquitous gobbledygook of logic-fetishists. (Things like: "Reverse-order Analyses of X-n Belief States in Forward Quarter Retorgrade Cognition: How Music Refers to Emotion," come to mind unbidden.) Likewise I found the following selection+commentary a little suspect: "* An assistant professor of English at a U.S. university (she prefers to remain anonymous) entered this choice morsel from The Cultures of United States Imperialism, by Donald Pease (Duke University Press, 1993): 'When interpreted from within the ideal space of the myth-symbol school, Americanist masterworks legitimized hegemonic understanding of American history expressively totalized in the metanarrative that had been reconstructed out of (or more accurately read into) these masterworks.' While the entrant says she enjoys the Bad Writing Contest, she's fearful her career prospects would suffer were she to be identified as hostile to the turn by English departments toward movies and soap operas. We quite understand: these days the worst writers in universities are English professors who ignore 'the canon' in order to apply tepid, vaguely Marxist gobbledygook to popular culture. Young academics who'd like a career had best go along." Thanks, I will. Though of course I doubt that I would term all--or anything close to all--of what the author refers to as "gobbledygook" the same. And I am almost totally sure that my vision of truly-foul "gobbledygook" varies from his to a fair extent. Putting aside the question of "gobbledygook," I don't feel particularly sympathetic to the implication in this commentary that "young academics" are being forced to focus on pop-culture beyond the degree the subject is due. I don't really known very much about the pressures of English departments, but I am convinced pop-culture could use much more academic analysis and interpretation, and that Critical theory and other Contintental(-derived) currents of thought provide crucial tools for doing so. Moreover, it seems to me that in most--perhaps even almost all--philosophy departments, there is very little interest in aesthetic issues relating to pop culture. This is being rectified, but there is still a ways to go. --Marcus Verhaegh Student, Free University Amsterdam __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat May 24 16:05:16 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id QAA21093 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 16:01:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA16221 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 16:01:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id EAA21673 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 24 May 1997 04:49:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id EAA21666 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 04:47:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from post.tau.ac.il (post.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.11]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA17262 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 04:47:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccsg.tau.ac.il (griffin@ccsg.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.2]) by post.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA15129; Sat, 24 May 1997 12:39:30 +0300 (IDT) Received: from localhost (griffin@localhost) by ccsg.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id FAA10274; Sat, 24 May 1997 05:20:06 +0300 (IDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ccsg.tau.ac.il: griffin owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 24 May 1997 05:20:04 +0300 (IDT) From: "Robert J. Griffin" To: Marcus Verhaegh cc: Denis Dutton , aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Bad Writing Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Robert J. Griffin" Status: O X-Status: I can agree with Marcus Verhaegh that contexts provide information that allow us to understand sentences which may appear incomprehensible when detached. But whether the Botting sentence can be understood in such a way still leaves aside the stylistic question. Botting's sentence mixes metaphors in a wild way: a "lure" is "frozen" before a dialectic, but then hastens on "within" chains. If you question, who or what is the subject of this activity, and where that subject is located, or indeed what exactly is said to be occurring, you may find some difficulty in sorting it out. I should add that I am not someone who rails against "jargon." I think that disciplines legitimately construct specialized vocabularies, and that the price of admission is learning the language. A writer pre-selects and presupposes an audience when using a highly specialized vocabulary. Bad writing, as I understand it however, is basically a lack of clarity and economy in expression, regardless of which vocabulary one is using. The Jameson quotation that also won a prize is a good example. But there the confusion occurs on the level of syntax. Robert Griffin Tel Aviv University __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat May 24 23:37:24 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id XAA23411 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 23:37:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA22858 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 23:37:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA29478 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:05:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA29469 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:05:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [206.190.65.4]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA30921 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:05:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (sc81-229.thegrid.net [206.190.81.229]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id NAA28087; Sat, 24 May 1997 13:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Robert J. Griffin" Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Marcus Verhaegh" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Bad Writing Contest Date: Sat, 24 May 97 11:58:37 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id WAA29470 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Marcus Verhaegh" Status: O X-Status: The sentence in question is: "The lure of imaginary totality is momentarily frozen before the dialectic of desire hastens on within symbolic chains." Robert Griffin writes of it: "Botting's sentence mixes metaphors in a wild way: a "lure" is "frozen" before a dialectic, but then hastens on "within" chains." I want it to be clear that I don't thing Botting's sentence is any kind of stylistic masterpiece. But at the same time I just don't think it is that bad. It doesn't mix metaphors in the way that Robert Griffith describes: the "lure" is "frozen," but it is the "_dialectic_" which "hastens." The image of a "lure" being "frozen" is a good one: I can imagine a kind of crystalizing moment where what you want, or the nature of your desire for it, becomes apparent. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with the idea/image of "hasten[ing] on within symbolic chains": you can be going somewhere fast but still be unfree. --Marcus Verhaegh Student, Free University Amsterdam __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat May 24 23:30:22 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id XAA23323 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 23:30:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA27502 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 23:30:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA29358 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:01:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA29346 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:01:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [206.190.65.4]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA31329 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 22:01:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (sc171-170.thegrid.net [207.114.171.170]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id QAA15717 for ; Sat, 24 May 1997 16:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Marcus Verhaegh" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Bad Writing Contest Date: Sat, 24 May 97 15:33:05 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id WAA29347 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Marcus Verhaegh" Status: RO X-Status: The sentence in question is: "The lure of imaginary totality is momentarily frozen before the dialectic of desire hastens on within symbolic chains." Robert Griffin writes of it: "Botting's sentence mixes metaphors in a wild way: a "lure" is "frozen" before a dialectic, but then hastens on "within" chains." I want it to be clear that I don't thing Botting's sentence is any kind of stylistic masterpiece. But at the same time I just don't think it is that bad. It doesn't mix metaphors in the way that Robert Griffith describes: the "lure" is "frozen," but it is the "_dialectic_" which "hastens." The image of a "lure" being "frozen" is a good one: I can imagine a kind of crystalizing moment where what you want, or the nature of your desire for it, becomes apparent. Likewise, there is nothing wrong with the idea/image of "hasten[ing] on within symbolic chains": you can be going somewhere fast but still be unfree. --Marcus Verhaegh Student, Free University Amsterdam __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun May 25 05:01:24 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id FAA24795 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 05:01:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA22680 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 05:01:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA03486 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 25 May 1997 03:39:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA03479 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 03:38:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from post.tau.ac.il (post.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.11]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA24937 for ; Sun, 25 May 1997 03:38:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccsg.tau.ac.il (griffin@ccsg.tau.ac.il [132.66.16.2]) by post.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA25488; Sun, 25 May 1997 11:34:17 +0300 (IDT) Received: from localhost (griffin@localhost) by ccsg.tau.ac.il (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA19111; Sun, 25 May 1997 11:37:51 +0300 (IDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ccsg.tau.ac.il: griffin owned process doing -bs Date: Sun, 25 May 1997 11:37:47 +0300 (IDT) From: "Robert J. Griffin" To: Marcus Verhaegh cc: "Robert J. Griffin" , aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Bad Writing Contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Robert J. Griffin" Status: O X-Status: Okay, I see where my error was. The "dialectic of desire" is doing the hastening on in symbolic chains, not the lure that had been momentarily frozen before that hastening had occurred. I guess that kind of clears it up. Perhaps a certain ambiguity remains. The syntax implies that the "lure" and the "dialectic of desire" are separate things; so my mistake was to indentify them and read the "lure" as hastening on. But if I follow Marcus Verhaegh's explication, it is possible to understand the dialectic of desire (and not the lure) as momentarily frozen before it hastens on. That is, the dialectic is somehow mobile or rather fluid, but its progress has been momentarily arrested before (as in "in front of") a "lure"; but this occurs before (as in temporal priority) it scurries off to catch the commuter train when it would rather be off to the beach. I had first thought that "symbolic chains" glances at the linguist's "syntagmatic chain," but I see no reason why the deadened disciplinary metaphor should not be activated as well. Hence: the lure is frozen before the dialectic hastens on in chains, but the dialectic should also be understood as frozen before the lure. Yes, that must be it. Robert Griffin Tel Aviv University __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jun 1 01:05:20 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id BAA07531 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:05:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA13570 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:05:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA25449 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:05:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id AAA25436 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:05:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA08612 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:04:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante33.u.washington.edu (jtate@dante33.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.17]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.04/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id WAA13300; Sat, 31 May 1997 22:04:58 -0700 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante33.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.04/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id WAA21718; Sat, 31 May 1997 22:04:57 -0700 Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 22:04:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Tate" To: Eiichi Tosaki cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Theory of rhythm in visual arts In-Reply-To: <3390D187.585@eduserv.its.unimelb.edu.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Hans and Shulamith Kreitler have an excellent all-inclusive book entitled -Psychology of the Arts- (Durham: Duke University Press, 1972) that has an informative chapter on rhythm more generally, yet includes a discussion of it in relation to visual arts. You might not agree completely with their ideas, but I can assure you that the book's extensive bibliography will be very useful. _________________________________ Joseph Tate Graduate Student Department of English University of Washington, Seattle jtate@u.washington.edu On Sun, 1 Jun 1997, Eiichi Tosaki wrote: > Could you recommend me books or articles dealing with rhythm in visual > arts. I am especially specialized in Mondrian and abstract art. > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jun 1 00:17:18 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id AAA07310 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:17:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA02484 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 00:17:19 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA24821 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 23:14:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA24814 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 23:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from moomsa ([206.48.5.65]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id XAA13895 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 23:14:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from PC_fjpulido.moomsa.com.mx by moomsa (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA05487; Sat, 31 May 1997 23:12:31 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3390D187.585@eduserv.its.unimelb.edu.au> References: Conversation <3390D187.585@eduserv.its.unimelb.edu.au> with last message <3390D187.585@eduserv.its.unimelb.edu.au> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Eiichi Tosaki" , aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Javier Pulido Biosca" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Theory of rhythm in visual arts Date: Sat, 31 May 97 22:09:09 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id XAA24815 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Javier Pulido Biosca" Status: O X-Status: ---------- > Could you recommend me books or articles dealing with rhythm in visual > arts. I am especially specialized in Mondrian and abstract art. I don't know bibliography abot Mondrian, but I have the Paul Klee's Pädagogisches Skizzenbuch. Maybe you can find an English translation. I have te Spanish translation as "Bases para la Estructuracion del Arte". Sincerely: Javier Pulido Biosca RAICES Project Coatzacoalcos, Ver. > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat May 31 22:30:34 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id WAA06714 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 22:30:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA25632 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 22:30:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA22919 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:25:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA22903 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from muwayb.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU (muwayb.ucs.unimelb.EDU.AU [128.250.20.7]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA18948 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:25:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from 128.250.231.149 (its-tserv5asy21.its.unimelb.EDU.AU) by muwayb.ucs.unimelb.edu.au (PMDF V5.1-8 #17781) with SMTP id <01IJK3T06LT40002VJ@muwayb.ucs.unimelb.edu.au> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 12:25:17 +1000 Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 11:34:00 +1000 From: Eiichi Tosaki Subject: Aesthetics: Theory of rhythm in visual arts To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: <3390D187.585@eduserv.its.unimelb.edu.au> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Macintosh; I; 68K) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Eiichi Tosaki Status: O X-Status: Could you recommend me books or articles dealing with rhythm in visual arts. I am especially specialized in Mondrian and abstract art. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jun 1 13:05:24 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id NAA11185 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA00992 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 13:05:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA00713 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:59:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA00671 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:58:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.crl.com (mail.crl.com [165.113.1.22]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id LAA19919 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 11:58:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from rfromme.ns2.crl.com (sa2-035.stic.net) by mail.crl.com with SMTP id AA19980 (5.65c/IDA-1.5 for ); Sun, 1 Jun 1997 06:54:08 -0700 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970601135446.0068c37c@mail.crl.com> X-Sender: rfromme@mail.crl.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 07:54:46 -0600 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Robert Alexander Fromme Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Theory of rhythm in visual arts Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id LAA00678 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert Alexander Fromme Status: RO X-Status: At 10:09 PM 5/31/97 PDT, you wrote: >> Could you recommend me books or articles dealing with rhythm in visual >> arts. I am especially specialized in Mondrian and abstract art. > >I don't know bibliography abot Mondrian, but I have the Paul Klee's Pädagogisches Skizzenbuch. Maybe you can find an English translation. I have te Spanish translation as "Bases para la Estructuracion del Arte". For info on Mondrian, try "De Stijl, 1917-1931" by Carsten-Peter Warncke, Benedikt Taschen, 1990 ISBN3-8228-0547-5 Hope this help. Bob Fromme Robert Fromme or __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 2 09:38:36 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id JAA23423 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:38:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA23707 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:38:37 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA15476 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 07:49:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA15469 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 07:49:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailer1.sm.uni-bocconi.it (mailer1.sm.uni-bocconi.it [193.205.23.4]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA10330 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 07:49:23 -0500 (EST) Organization: Universita' Bocconi - Milano (Italy) Received: from students.uni-bocconi.it (students.uni-bocconi.it [193.205.25.253]) by mailer1.sm.uni-bocconi.it (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA05284 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:00:42 +0200 (MET DST) Received: from SRVAULAP/SpoolDir by students.uni-bocconi.it (Mercury 1.21); 2 Jun 97 15:00:24 GMT+1 Received: from SpoolDir by SRVAULAP (Mercury 1.30); 2 Jun 97 15:00:22 GMT+1 Received: from cav111.pcstud.uni-bocconi.it by students.uni-bocconi.it (Mercury 1.30); 2 Jun 97 14:59:24 GMT+1 Message-ID: <33933F6A.451C@hotmail.com> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 14:47:22 -0700 From: Andrea Cavalieri X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Iinformations request X-URL: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/net/aesthetics-list.html Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Andrea Cavalieri Status: RO X-Status: I wuold like to receive informations about the existence of summer courses in aesthetics in europe. Thanks a lot. Vittoria __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jun 3 07:15:38 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id HAA11812 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 07:15:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA24765 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 07:15:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id FAA13103 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:35:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id FAA13095 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:35:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from deep-thought (DEEP-THOUGHT.TANDF.CO.UK [193.117.118.13]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id FAA16526 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 05:35:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [193.117.119.202] by deep-thought (NTMail 3.02.08) with ESMTP id xa091361 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 11:32:29 +0100 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970603103159.0069011c@deep-thought.tandf.co.uk> X-Sender: tina.jeavons@deep-thought.tandf.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 11:31:59 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Tina Jeavons Subject: Aesthetics: new introduction to aesthetics Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id FAA13096 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Tina Jeavons Status: O X-Status: NEW BOOK ANOUNCEMENT! Aesthetics by Colin Lyas (University of Lancaster, UK) * Just published, this is a great new introduction to the subject. * Theoretical discussions are grounded to topical examples familiar to young people: Bowie as well as Beethoven, Warhol as well as Whistler. * It opens imaginatively by exploring why art is important to us and goes on to grip the reader with a discussion of all of the areas central to aesthetics: aesthetic experience, representation, expression, definition of art, evaluation, interpretation, structuralism and post-structuralism, truth and morality. * It draws on the great thinkers on art, Plato and Kant, Croce and Beardsley, including the most recent iconclastic views of Barthes and Derrida. May 1997 HB 1-85728-678-0 £30.00 PB 1-85728-580-8 £10.95 UCL Press EUROPEAN ORDERS ONLY Aesthetics is available from all good bookshops. Alternatively, please call our credit card hotline on +44 (0)1256 813000. INSPECTION COPIES Free inspection copies are available to lecturers teaching relevant courses. To receive a copy, we will need your institution address, course title, course date and number of students. Please contact Paula Prince on +44 (0)171 583 0490 or via email on paula.prince@tandf.co.uk. Please quote reference AEST 2. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jun 3 19:07:14 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id TAA26926 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA17226 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:07:13 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA01175 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:08:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA01168 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:08:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail2.ip.pt (mail2.ip.pt [194.79.69.132]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA11368 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 18:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from ip002149.ip.pt (pm-lx-3-42.net.ip.pt [195.23.4.42]) by mail2.ip.pt with ESMTP id AAA07733 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:08:14 +0100 (WET DST) Message-Id: <199706032308.AAA07733@mail2.ip.pt> From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Vasco_de_Queiroz?=" To: Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 00:11:30 +0200 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Vasco_de_Queiroz?=" Status: RO X-Status: I'm doing a research about the "metaphor of light" in the western arts and religion. Anyone can help me with bibliography, specialy about the relation between the "spiritual exercices" of Saint Ignacio de Loyola and the barroque imagination? Thank You Joco Queiroz Ar.Co, Lisbon __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 4 09:50:43 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id JAA00739 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:50:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA28976 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 09:50:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id HAA13875 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:47:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id HAA13868 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:47:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from mailer.fsu.edu (mailer.fsu.edu [128.186.6.122]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA04919 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:47:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (slifschi@localhost) by mailer.fsu.edu (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA28421; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:43:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:43:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Lifschitz X-Sender: slifschi@mailer To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jo=E3o_Vasco_de_Queiroz?= cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: your mail In-Reply-To: <199706032308.AAA07733@mail2.ip.pt> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id HAA13869 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Stephen Lifschitz Status: RO X-Status: Although out of print, perhaps you can locate a copy of Opening to Inner Light, by Ralph Metzner, 1986, published by Jeremy Tarcher, Inc., Los Angeles, distributed by St. Martin's Press, N.Y. His bibliography will also be of great help. Stephen Lifschitz (Tivo) On Wed, 4 Jun 1997, [ISO-8859-1] João Vasco de Queiroz wrote: > I'm doing a research about the "metaphor of light" in the western arts and > religion. Anyone > can help me with bibliography, specialy about the relation between the > "spiritual exercices" of Saint Ignacio de Loyola and the barroque > imagination? > Thank You > Joco Queiroz > Ar.Co, Lisbon > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 4 12:08:21 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA03683 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:08:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA08275 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:08:21 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA17510 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:12:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA17497 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from Eris.Manchester.EDU (Eris.Manchester.EDU [192.189.3.70]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id KAA30831 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:12:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from (MC40-64.Manchester.EDU [199.8.40.64]) by Eris.Manchester.EDU (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id KAA20009 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 10:12:18 -0500 Message-ID: <33957822.2552@Manchester.EDU> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 10:13:54 -0400 From: "Jossart, Cary" Organization: Manchester College X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01 (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: socially responsible campaign X-URL: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl/net/aesthetics-list.html Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Jossart, Cary" Status: O X-Status: if you are not interested please forward or post in appropriate places within your organization. thank you SOCIAL CHOICE FOR SOCIAL CHANGE: CAMPAIGN FOR A NEW TIAA-CREF Box 152, Manchester College, North Manchester, IN 46962 (219)982-5346/5009, njw@manchester.edu, aaf@manchester.edu A Call to Invest 5-10% of Social Choice Account Assets ($75-150 Million) in Companies that are Models of Social and Environmental Responsibility Dear Colleague, We are writing to ask your organization to endorse and/or publicize the campaign described below. Formal endorsement roughly entails the following: - Sending a letter noting your endorsement to us, and to Chairman and CEO John Biggs, President and Chief Operating Officer Thomas W. Jones, Chief Counsel and Corporate Secretary Albert J. Wilson, and the other CREF trustees: TIAA-CREF, 730 Third Avenue, New York, NY 10017-3206. - Publicizing the endorsement in your newsletter, on your e-mail lists, at conferences, or other ways. Link your organization's website to our campaign's webpage (http://www.manchester.edu/departmnt/peace/njw/ disclaim.html). - Requesting that your members contact TIAA-CREF individually. (Letters from individuals without accounts in TIAA-CREF are welcome as well.) Besides postal letters, e-mail can be sent to feedback@tiaa-cref.org, with a request to forward copies to the officers and trustees noted above. Whether or not you can endorse the campaign, any efforts to publicize it are most appreciated. Sincerely, Abigail Fuller, Ph.D. Neil Wollman, Ph.D. Co-Chairs ----------------------------------------------------------------- SOCIAL CHOICE FOR SOCIAL CHANGE: CAMPAIGN FOR A NEW TIAA-CREF TELL TIAA-CREF YOU SUPPORT "POSITIVE INVESTING"! SEND EMAIL TO FEEDBACK@TIAA-CREF.ORG, PHONE (800) 842-2733, OR WRITE TO 730 THIRD AVE., NY, NY 10017-3206. College faculty have launched a nationwide campaign to persuade TIAA-CREF, the Teachers Insurance and Annuity Association-College Retirement Equities Fund, to begin "positive investing" of their pension funds. They are calling for the investment of $75-100 million from the Social Choice Account, a socially responsible fund, in companies that are models of social and environmental responsibility. TIAA-CREF is the nation's largest private pension system. In 1989, faculty successfully lobbied the group for the creation of the Social Choice Account, which screens for tobacco, alcohol, nuclear, military, environmental, and Northern Ireland concerns. The Campaign is now asking that 5-10% of assets in the Social Choice Account be invested in companies that are models of corporate responsibility with regard to employees, the environment, consumers, and local communities. For a brochure and other campaign materials, contact Social Choice for Social Change: Campaign for a New TIAA-CREF, Box 152, Manchester College, North Manchester, IN 46062, (219)982- 5346/5009, or e-mail Neil Wollman at NJW@Manchester.edu or Abigail Fuller at AAF@Manchester.edu. The Campaign also has a web site, at http:/www.manchester.edu (click on "index," then "Social Choice for Social Change"). If you do contact TIAA-CREF or take other actions, please let us know so we can monitor campaign activities. Thank you. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 4 19:49:05 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id TAA13108 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 19:49:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA05499 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 19:49:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA01038 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:21:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA01031 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:21:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from cleese.nas.com (root@cleese.nas.com [198.182.207.3]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA02017 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:21:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from [198.182.208.13](really [198.182.208.62]) by cleese.nas.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:54:03 -0700 (PDT) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #10 built 1997-Mar-21) X-Sender: robingraphic@mail.nas.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 15:58:30 -0700 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: RobinGraphic@nas.com (Robin Parks) Subject: Aesthetics: Petition for National Public Radio Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: RobinGraphic@nas.com (Robin Parks) Status: RO X-Status: > Dear Friends: > > << Note: > The easiest way to forward this petition is to select the entire > text = and > paste it into a reply to mail message. Then add your name to the > end and send it on to your recipients. Thanks. > > ------------------------------ > > This is for anyone who thinks NPR/PBS is a worthwhile expenditure > of > $1.12/year of their taxes (as opposed to, say, Newt Gingrich's > salary?), > a petition follows. If you sign, please forward on to others (not > back = to > me). If not, please don't kill it -- send it to the email > address = listed > here: > > wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu > > PBS, NPR (National Public Radio), and the arts are facing major > cutbacks > in funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to reduce > spending > costs and streamline their services, some government officials > believe = that > the funding currently going to these programs is too large a > portion of > funding for something which is seen as "unworthwhile". > Currently, taxes from > the general public for PBS equal $1.12 per person per year, and > the = National > Endowment for the Arts equals $.64 a year in total. > > A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that 76% of > Americans > wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national defense and > law > enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal funding. > > Each year, the Senate and House Appropriations committees each > have 13 > subcommittees with jurisdiction over many programs and agencies. > Each > subcommittee passes its own appropriation bill. The goal each > year is > to have each bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal year, > which is October 1. > > The only way that our representatives can be aware of the base of > = support > for PBS and funding for these types of programs is by making our > voices heard. > > Please add your name to this list and forward it to friends if > you = believe > in what we stand for. This list will be forwarded to the > President of = the > United States, the Vice President of the United States, and = > Representative > Newt Gingrich, who is the instigator of the action to cut funding > to = these > worthwhile programs. > > If you happen to be the 150th, 200th, 250th etc. signer of this = > petition, > please forward a copy to: wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu. If that > = address > is inoperative, please send it to: > kubi7975@blue.univnorthco.edu. This = way > we can keep track of the lists and organize them. > > Forward this to everyone you know, and help us to keep these > programs = alive. > > Thank you. > 1) Elizabeth Weinert, student, University of Northern Colorado, > Greeley, = CO > 2) Robert M. Penn, San Francisco, CA > 3) Gregory S. Williamson, San Francisco, CA > 4) Daniel C. Knightly, Austin, TX > 5) Andrew H. Knightly, Los Angeles, CA > 6) Aaron C. Yeater, Somerville, MA > 7) Tobie M. Cornejo, Washington, DC > 8) John T. Mason, Dalton, MA > 9) Eric W. Fish, Williamstown, MA > 10) Courtney E. Estill, Hamilton College, NY > 11) Vanessa Moore, Northfield, MN > 12) Lynne Raschke, Haverford College, PA (originally Minnesota) > 13) Deborah Bielak, Haverford, PA > 14) Morgan Lloyd, Haverford, PA 19041 > 15) Galen Lloyd, Goucher College, MD > 16) Brian Eastwood, University of Vermont, VT > 17) Elif Batuman, Harvard University, MA > 18) Kohar Jones, Yale University, CT > 19) Claudia Brittenham, Yale University, CT > 20) Alexandra Block, Yale University, CT > 21) Susanna Chu, Yale University, CT > 22) Michelle Chen, Harvard University, MA > 23) Jessica Hammer, Harvard University, MA > 24) Ann Pettigrew, Haverford College, PA > 25) Kirstin Knox, Swarthmore College, PA > 26) Jason Adler, Swarthmore College, PA > 27) Daniel Gottlieb, Swarthmore College (but truly from Lawrence, > KS) > 28) Josh Feltman, Tufts University, MA > 29) Louise Forrest, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MA > 30) HongSup Park, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, MA > (originally > from Portage, Wisconsin) > 31) Ana Sandoval,Massachusetts Institute of Technology > 32) Katherine Navarrete, Massachusetts Institute of Technology > 33) Mandisa Washington, Massachusetts Institute of Technology > 34) Stephen Balzac, San Francisco, CA > 35) Howard Yermish, Los Angeles, CA > 36) Danielle Yermish, Los Angeles, CA > 37) David S. Lefkowitz, University of California - Los Angeles > 38) Frank S. Albinder, San Francisco, CA > 39) Read S. Sherman, Harvard Divinity School > 40) Stephane Lemelin, Cambridge, MA > 41) Thomas Ouellette, Cambidge, MA > 42) Richard Russell, Cambridge, MA > 43) Nella Wennberg, Jamaica Plain, MA > 44) Eric Smith, Jamaica Plain, MA > 45) Alex Graham, Boston, MA > 46) Dean Wei, Chicago, IL > 47) Luisita Frances, Chicago, IL > 48) Roy Vella, Stanford, CA > 49) Alan Hellawell, Mountain View, CA > 50) Timothy A. Scott, San Francisco, CA > 51) Albert M. Yeh, Mountain View, CA > 52) Susan Yeh, Seattle, WA > 53) Jonathan Payne, Seattle, WA > 54) Cena Pohl, Seattle, WA > 55) David Perk, Seattle, WA > 56) Robert Srygley, Seattle WA > 57) Katarzyna S. Kubzdela, Chicago, IL > 58) Katy Human, Stanford, CA > 59) Erica Fleishman, Reno, NV > 60) C. Richard Tracy, Reno, NV > 61) Kenneth E. Nussear, Reno, NV > 62) Christopher R. Tracy, University of Wisconsin, Madison, WI > 63) Kristin Komives, Carrboro, NC > 64) Jennifer Goldman, Chapel Hill, NC > 65) Darcy Leach, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI > 66) Van Luong, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI > 67) Aurora M. Sherman, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI > 68) Paul O. Stern, Seattle, WA > 69) Erika Tapman, U. of Vermont College of Medicine > 70) Opher Donchin, Urbana, IL > 71) Prof. Pamela Cosman, University of California, San Diego > 72) Ari Levitt, University of Washington, Seattle, WA > 73) Nathan Martin, Berkeley, California > 74) Lynn Price, Kensington, California > 75) Leslie Shown, Kensington, CA > 76) Mike Boals, Berkeley, CA > 77) Wendy Boals, Berkeley, CA > 78) Effie Westervelt, Tiburon, CA > 79) Mary Burns, Taos, NM > 80) Karen Page, New York, NY (karenapage@aol.com) > 81) Gary Holleman, Bemidji, MN (holleman@chefnet.com) > 82) Tim Rosa, Newton, MA (trosa@world.std.com) > 83) Doug Hersh, Sherborn MA (hersh@ultranet.com) > 84) Ruel Little, Somerville, MA (rlittle@ascensiontech.com) > 85) Stefan Wennik, Andover, MA (SWennik@aol.com) > 86) Melissa Walia, SF, CA (color@well.com) > 87) Tracy Brown, SF, CA (tracy@nrh.com) > 88) John T. Miller, SF, CA (johncom@dnai.com) > 89) M. Todd Davis, SF, CA (todd_davis@gensler.com) > 90) Michael Demetrios, SF, CA > 91) J. Marc Perrin, NY, NY (mperrin@sbi.com) > 92) Alyse Daberko, NY, NY (adaberko@sbi.com) > 93) Jessica Guertin, Washington Univ. St. > Louis(jg3@cec.wustl.edu) > 94) Ellen Watson, San Francisco, CA > 95) Bridgitt Arnold, Seattle, WA > 96) Erica Yenni, Seattle, WA > 97) Kerri Karvetski, Seattle, WA (70007.4401@compuserve.com) > 98) Mark Butler, Seattle, WA > 99) lazlow jones, long beach, ny lazlow@undernet.com > 100) Laura Bykowski, NYC, NY laurab@gbcom.com > 101) Amy Stettler, NYC, NY ZiolaS@AOL.com > 102) F Ben Dana, Burlington, Vermont > 103) Bill Dahill-Baue, Brattleboro, VT > 104) S. Ryan Quick, Yale University, New Haven, CT > 105) Jerry Anne Dickel, Yale University, New Haven, CT > 106) Donald Beebe, Yale University, New Haven, CT > 107) Stephanie Seery, School of Theology at Claremont, CA > 108) Katherine A. Johnson, Baltimore, MD > 109) Cynthia J. Halstead, Burke, VA > 110) Ronald Northrip, Falls Church, VA ronnlee@clark.net > 111) Jane Levandoski, University of Delaware, DE > 112) Denise J. Hills, University of Delaware, DE > 113) David P. Sobel, College of William & Mary, VA > 114) Amey T. Sadler, College of William& Mary, VA > 115) Donna M. Livingston, Woodbridge, VA > 116) Karen A. Morris, Burke, VA > 117) Michael E. Perdue Atlanta, GA > 118) David Cour, Washington D.C. > 119) Katie Sergent, Washington D.C. > 120) Nathan Sewell, Nashville, TN > 121) Peter Eby, Nashville, TN > 122) jeff taraday, seattle, WA > 123) Julie Taraday, Seattle, WA > 124) Stephanie Cooper, Seattle WA > 125) Kailen Mooney, Seattle, WA > 126) Dylan Clark, Univ. of WA, Anthropology, Seattle 98195 > 127) Daniel Simons, University of Washington, Seattle, WA > 128) Kirsten Wild, University of Washington, Seattle, WA > 129) Barbara Busetti, University of Washington, Seattle, WA > 130) Leslie Macchia, Mountain View, CA (lmacchia@ix.netcom.com) > 131) Kris Wollenhaupt, San Jose, CA > 132) Ann Bowers, Palo Alto, CA > 133) Sue Tysko, Palo Alto, CA > 134) Liza Schmeltz, San Jose, CA > 135) Judith Schweikert, Palo Alto, CA > 136) Joan Wylie, Palo Alto, CA > 137) Marcia Pugsley, Palo Alto, CA > 138) Daryl Davis, Palo Alto, CA > 139) Amy Gerstein, San Francisco, CA 140) > Christian Holden, San Francisco, CA 141) > Stephen Divenere, San Francisco, CA 142) > Karen Yetman, San Francisco, CA > (kyetman@nelson.corp.gonelson.corp) > 143) Christine D'Elia, San Francisco, CA > 144) Rachel Bredemeier, Cambridge, MA > 145) Karin Horlbeck, Cambridge, MA > 146) Mark Bourne, Cambridge, MA (MarkB@cmbinfo.com) > 147) Norm Slocum, Weymouth, MA (SLOCUM@XENSEI.COM) > 148) Carol Hughes, Boulder, CO (cehughes@lucent.com) > 149) Susan Hagg, San Francisco,CA(shagg@coldwellbanker.com) > 150) Dante Landucci, Bethesda, MD (Dante_Landucci@NIH.com) > 151) Ann Dannenberg Rosen, Newton, MA > 152) Elena Conti, Cambridge, MA > 153) Brent Richter, Rowley Ma > 154) Libby Jones, Rowley, MA > 155) Kitkoon Chan, Pleasanton CA > 156) Dennis Crayon, Boston, MA > 157) Claude R Labbe, Boston, MA > 158) Jeffrey M. Klapes, Lynnfield, MA > 159) David E. Knudsen, Somerville, MA > 160) Chris Ann Matteo, New York, NY > 161) Scott G. Williams, Austin, Texas > 162) Linda Wiencken Williams, Austin, Texas > 163) Lucinda Martin, Florence, TX > 164) Karen E. LeFevre, Austin, Texas > 165) David E. Soileau, Austin, Texas (cajundave@aol.com) > 166) Kirk P. White, RN, MSN, Austin, TX > 167) Lisa Rogers, Austin, TX (oyalisa.@aol.com) > 168) Shelley Brown, Denver, CO (lbrown@aol.com) > 169) Deborah Chandler, Loveland, CO (deborahwf@aol.com) > 170) Linda Temple, Oklahoma City, OK (lgtemple@aol.com) > 171) Tom Temple, Oklahoma City, OK (lgtemple@aol.com) > 172) Gage Evans, Denver, CO (gevans@carl.org) > 173) Kara M. Van Horn, Denver, CO (karav@ihs.com) > 174) Carmelia Dyer, Boulder, CO (cdyer@ball.com) > 175) Douglas Goldman, Boulder, CO (dgoldman@ball.com) > 176) Eugenie Georgas, Boulder, CO (ggeorgas@ball.com) > 177) Michael Birdsong, Boulder, CO (mbirdson@ball.com) > 178) Todd Arbetter, Boulder, CO (arbetter@spam.colorado.edu) > 179) Marika Holland,Boulder, CO (hollandm@orbit.colorado.edu) > 180) Adriene Hughes, Brighton, MA > 181) Andrew Myerson, Brighton, MA > 182) Lucila De Alejandro, San Diego, CA > 183) Robin Taylor, San Diego CA > 184) Shelly Diaz, NYC, NY > 185) Beth Davidson, Incline Village, NV > 186) Jon Paul Davidson, Incline Village, NV > 187) Kate Glanz, Durham, NH > 188) Filson Glanz, Durham, NH > 189) Dehan Glanz, San Francisco, CA > 190) Justine Reese, San Francisco, CA > 191) Carl Bettag, San Francisco, CA > 192) Eugenia Lean, Los Angeles, CA > 193) Nicole Huang, Berkeley, CA > 194) George Krompacky, Yale University, CT > 195) Peter Carroll, Yale University, New Haven, CT > 196) James Carter, New Haven, CT > 197) Eagle Glassheim, Columbia University, New York City > 198) David S. Frey, Columbia University, New York City > 199) Ellen B. Umland, Bay Village, OH > 200) Susanna D. Kopchains, Hawthorne, NJ > 201) Mark Margaretten, Denver, CO > 202) Jon L. Leland, Mill Valley, CA > 203) Steve Blumenthal, San Francisco, CA > 204) Paula Mantel, Honolulu, HI > 205) Gaile Sickel, Honolulu, HI > 206) Robert Wolfson, Fairfax, CA > 207) Shams Wm. Kairys, Oakland, CA > 208) Donald Halley, New Lebanon, NY > 209) David Iman Adler, New Lebanon, NY > 210) Robert Barris, Highland Park, > 211) Janet Karpus, Kalamazoo, MI > 212) Terry Macak, Kalamazoo, MI > 213) Lynne Aspnes, Ann Arbor MI > 214) Lorna Haywood, U of M Ann Arbor MI > 215) Robert Debbaut, Salt Lake City, UT > 216) Kaye Ramsey, Salt Lake City, UT > 217) Timothy Jones, U of T San Antonio TX > 218) Eugene Dowdy, UTSA, San Antonio, TX > 219) Lawrence Stomberg, Truman State University, Kirksville, MO > 220) Lisa Stomberg, Colorado School of Mines, CO > 221) Paula Lynch, Laurel Springs, NJ > 222) Cara Kendric, Philadelphia, PA > 223) Deborah Conger Hughes, University of Washington, Seattle > 224) Dean Heerwagen, Univ. of Washington, Seattle > 225) Mark Clayton, College Station, TX > 226) Mardelle Shepley, Bryan, TX > 227) Mike Blair Bryan Tx (mcblair@myriad.net) > 228) David Lucey Oakland, CA > 229) Ted Rallis Davis CA. (ted@ucdavis.edu) > 230) Leigh Ann Giles, Davis CA (lagiles@ucdavis.edu) > 231) Kamala Crompton, Sebastopol CA (kscrompton@ucdavis.edu) > 232) Patrick Kelly > 233) Alan J. Hiller (hiller@cooper.cpmc.org) > 234) Mitchell D. Klein (MrProp@aol.com) > 235) Nicholas Wulfekuhle > 236) Andrew Downes > 237) Kelly Bowers, Washington DC > 238) Thomas Unger, Alexandria, VA > 239) Dwight Gibbs, Alexandria, VA (dwightg@fool.com) > 240) Selena Maranjian, Alexandria, VA (selenam@fool.com) > 241) Lynnette A. Simon, Cambridge, MA (lasimon@fas.harvard.edu) > 242) Susan Martin, Acton, MA(suemart@tiac.net) > 243) Kenneth Lord, West Hempstead, NY (lord@calvin.cs.qc.edu) > 244) Christopher Vickery, Holliswood, NY > (vickery@babbage.cs.qc.edu) > 245) Christopher Winters, Stamford,CT (Abudu@Juno.com) > 246) Paul McIsaac, New York City (paulmci@aol.com) > 247) John Douglas, Charlotte, VT (jdouglas@together.net) > 248) Norio Kushi, Shelburne, VT (ankushi@aol.com) > 249) JoAnne Kushi, Shelburne, VT > 250) Allan Balliett, Shepherdstown, WV (igg@igg.com) > 251) Michael Reilly, NYC, NY (mreilly@sasmp.com) > 252) Cindi Weiss, Hoboken, NJ (cweiss@sasmp.com) > 253) Sam Cohen, NY, NY > 254) Kathryn Mintz, NY, NY (kmintz@randomhouse.com) > 255) Brad Greenquist, LA, CA > 256) Helga Schier, LA, CA (hschier@randomhouse.com) > 257) Kimberly Burns, LA,CA (kburns@randomhouse.com) > 258) Laurel Cook, NY,NY(cookl@bdd.com) > 259) Todd Gitlin, NY, NY (gitlint@is.nyu.edu) > 260) Norris McNamara, Chicago, IL (NorrisMcN@aol.com) > 261) Scott Diamond, Chicago, IL > 263)Scott Black, Oak Park, IL > 264) Linda Marquardt, Oak Park, IL > 265) Daniel Marquardt, Oak Park, IL > 266) Robert Ginsburg, Fayetteville, Ar > 267) Susan Jenkins, Fayetteville, Ar > 268) Dianne Schlies, Albuquerque, NM > 269) Paul Schlies, Albuquerque, NM > 270) Bob Dickey, Portland, OR > 271) Elizabeth Dickey, Tucson, AZ > 272) Timothy Mayhew, Farmington, NM > 273) Marjorie Robertson, Arlington, VA > 274) Deron Hurst, Arlington, VA > 275) Erika Warner, Arlington, VA > 276) Nancy Ward, Arlington, VA > 277) Heather Podlich, Washington, DC > 278) Lillian Rice, Washington, DC > 279) Nicole Dannenberg, Washington, DC (originally from > Sunnyvale, CA) > 280) Suzanne Isack, Washington DC > 281) Iracema de Moura Castro, Washington, DC > 282) Tom Sander, Cambridge, MA > 283) Peri Smilow, Cambridge, MA > 284) Marc Johnson, Cambridge, MA and NY, NY > 285) Patty Lyons, Chicago, IL > 286) Tom Mula, Chicago, IL >> > 287) David Darlow, Chicago, Illinois > 288) Kristine Thatcher, Chicago, Illinois > 289) Larry Yando, Chicago,Illinois > 290) Joseph Hanreddy, Milwaukee, Wisconsin>> > 291) Michael Bodeen, Chicago, IL > 292) Kate Churchill, Boston, MA > 293) Leelee Lloyd, New York, N.Y. > 294) Caity Meaney, Evanston, IL > 295) Jennifer Schoeneman, Evanston, IL > 296) Karen Hough Majidzadeh, New York, NY > 297) Jamie Pachino, Chicago, IL > 298) Kit Wainer, Ithaca,NY > 299) Robin Parks, Lummi Island, WA > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jun 8 10:12:06 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id KAA11117 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA32364 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 10:12:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA23242 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:03:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA23235 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:03:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from carlton.innotts.co.uk (root@carlton.innotts.co.uk [194.176.128.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA22025 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 08:03:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from serialA27.innotts.co.uk (serialA27.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.40]) by carlton.innotts.co.uk (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA23921 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 14:03:17 +0100 (BST) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 14:03:17 +0100 (BST) Message-Id: <199706081303.OAA23921@carlton.innotts.co.uk> X-Sender: woodfra@mailhost.innotts.co.uk X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: Richard Woodfield Subject: Aesthetics: Annual Conference of the BSA Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id IAA23236 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Richard Woodfield Status: RO X-Status: THE BRITISH SOCIETY OF AESTHETICS OXFORD CONFERENCE PROGRAMME 1997 A JOINT CONFERENCE OF THE BSA AND THE ITALIAN SOCIETY OF AESTHETICS A word of explanation. In devising this programme I am assuming that our Italian visitors will be arriving on Thursday afternoon. There are various BSA activities which I intend to programme into the afternoon to use time more efficiently in the rest of the programme. For the sake of UK members who arrive in Oxford at lunchtime, I have also programmed two papers to be given in the afternoon. Our joint event will effectively start with pre-dinner drinks at 6.30 and then proceed through Friday and Saturday. On Sunday morning, after a general assembly where we can discuss the more general points raised by the conference, I would suggest a civilised stroll around Oxford in small groups so that we don't upset the college authorities. Places like the Christchurch Gallery, the Pitt Rivers and the Ashmolean will be open. We will all reconvene for lunch at 12.30. The programme has been designed to create as much freedom as possible for its creative use; no-one need feel obliged to sit ! ! in the conference all the way through, just as long as there is a decent audience for each paper. As is our custom of informality, I will omit speakers' titles and affiliations, though you might be interested to know that the conference will be truly international, with contributors from the USA, Australia, Africa, Israel, the Netherlands and Scandanavia as well as Italy. Each paper is expected to last 20 minutes and there will be a following 20 minute discussion. All papers will be presented in the Emden Room. Thursday 28th August 12.00 Meeting of the BSA Executive Committee from 1.00 Check in 3.00 Tea (Dining Room) 3.20 Rob van Gerwen "Expression as Representation" 4.10 Eddy Zemach "This Animal Does Not Exist: Rilke, Sonnets to Orpheus" 5.00 BSA AGM 6.30 Welcome: drinks and get together in the Quad 7.00 Dinner (Dining Room) 8.00 Introduction: Richard Woodfield and Grazia Marchianò 8.15 Grazia Marchianò "'Heart' and 'Fire': Two metaphors in Eastern Aesthetics" Friday 29th August 8.00 Breakfast (Dining Room) 9.00 Enrico Fubini "The Sense of Holiness in the Jewish Musical Tradition" 9.40 Giulio Busi "Harmony and Cosmic Proportions in Jewish Mysticism" 10.20 Coffee (Dining Room) 10.50 Lars-Olof Ahlberg "Artistic Value" 11.30 Colin Lyas "The Essential Correctness of Croce's First Aesthetic" 12.10 Gianni Carchia "Philosophy of Art. The Art of Philosophy" 1.00 Lunch (Dining Room) 2.00 Luigi Santoro "Art and Psychoanalysis: Desire" 2.40 Eugenio de Caro "The Aesthetic Condition: 'Fundus Animae' as a Therapy for the Human Mind" 3.20 Tea (Dining Room) 3.50 Catherine Runcie, "The Recovery of Meaning: Little Dorrit and Novel and Film" 4.30 Carolyn Wilde "The demise of the aesthetic and the return of beauty" 7.00 Formal Dinner in the Old Dining Hall Saturday 30th 8.00 Breakfast 9.30 Lydia Goehr "Wagner and the Quest for the Autonomous Musical Voice" 10.20 Vincenzina Mazzarino "Further Types of Ambiguity. Puns in Sanscrit Poetics and Poetry 11.00 Coffee (Dining Room) 11.20 Monica Ferrando "The Myth of the Pastoral and the Loecus Amoenus Commonplace" 12.00 Adil Mustafa Ahmad "The Ummayad Twist - the first deviation in the aesthetics of Muslim Architecture" 1.00 Lunch (Dining Room) 2.00 Matthew Kieran "Imagination and Experience in Art" 2.40 Berys Gaut "Reasons, Emotions and Fictions" 3.20 Tea (Dining Room) 3.50 Graham McFee "Wittgenstein and Performing Art" 4.30 Allan Casebier "Phenomenological Reflections on the Japanese Aesthetic" 7.00 Dinner (Dining Room) Sunday 31st August 8.00 Breakfast (Dining Room) 9.00 General assembly and discussion of the conference papers 10.00 Groups assemble for informal walks around Oxford 12.30 Lunch and depart Practical details: A map of Oxford will be sent to conference delegates. Please note that there is a coach from Heathrow to Oxford which stops outside St Edmund Hall; simply ask the driver to alert you to the stop. Full board (meaning food and accomodation from Thursday tea to Sunday lunch at St. Edmund's) will cost £130 (basic) or £150 (en suite facilities) per person; parking will cost an extra £15. There is no conference fee. Cheques should be made payable to "The British Society of Aesthetics". Europeans are advised to send Eurocheques in advance. I apologise for this, but the Society will be penalised by St Edmund's for any bookings which fail to materialise as it is not a hotel! It will also be penalised for any non-returned room keys. Please send details of what you require (eg. special or vegetarian diets, rooms without too many steps etc.) along with your cheque to : Richard Woodfield, BSA, Nottingham Trent University, Nottingham NG1 4BU, UK Mark the envelope "Oxford Conference" Please make sure that your application and cheque gets to me straight away. I will not accept any bookings after June 30th. For a rapid response to queries contact me on: email ; fax (0)115 9486 403; phone (0) 115 952 3320 __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 9 21:18:42 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id VAA05470 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:18:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA18649 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 21:18:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA00650 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA00637 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from VMSD.CSD.MU.EDU (vmsd.csd.mu.edu [134.48.20.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA04168 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:57:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from vms.csd.mu.edu by vms.csd.mu.edu (PMDF V5.0-7 #14229) id <01IJVNTNFI8007Q28G@vms.csd.mu.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 09 Jun 1997 18:57:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 1997 18:57:08 -0500 (CDT) From: curtis carter Subject: Aesthetics: ACLS (fwd) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: curtis carter Status: O X-Status: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 05 Jun 1997 14:23:28 -0500 (CDT) From: American Society for Aesthetics To: carterc@vms.csd.mu.edu Cc: asastcar@vms.csd.mu.edu Subject: ACLS ATTENTION: RECIPIENTS OF ACLS FELLOWSHIPS AND GRANTS REQUEST FOR INFORMATION The ACLS is attempting to compile a directory of current addresses for recipients of fellowships and grants for as far back as we can. If you have been a recipient, please send us an e-mail (grants@acls.org) or a postcard with your current contact information (home and work addresses, phone and fax numbers, and e-mail). Do not worry about providing the type or date of your grant, we know that. If you know of recipients who may be deceased we would appreciate receiving that information. None of this information will be made public without your permission. Even if you have been in touch with the ACLS recently (within the last five years) we would still appreciate hearing from you. Recipients Directory Project ACLS 228 East 45th Street New York, New York 10017 fax 212-949-8058 grants@acls.org __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jun 12 13:46:52 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id NAA04854 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:46:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA11217 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:46:50 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA11598 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:59:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA11591 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:59:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id LAA24407 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 11:59:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #13) id ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 09:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <3343510@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 12 Jun 97 09:59:17 PDT From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Aesthetic terminology To: aesthetics@indiana.edu, M.Ormerod@Surveying.Salford.AC.UK Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: >Apart from "beauty" and "sublime" what other words do we use in aesthetic descriptions, and do they invoke the feelings that we receive [sic]?< I seriously suggest that you read Frank Sibley's 'Aesthetic Concepts' (Philosophical Review, October 1959), and light-heartedly suggest that you read through any copy of Wine Spectator or similar publication. Cheers, Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu 'The orchestra was playing yellow cocktail music.' --F. Scott Fitzgerald __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jun 12 14:41:47 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id OAA06372 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:41:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA24738 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:41:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA13369 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:59:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA13362 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:59:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from marlboro.edu (akbar.marlboro.edu [204.4.192.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA05824 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:59:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by marlboro.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA26017; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:57:36 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 13:57:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel JJ Lefebvre X-Sender: danle@akbar To: Marcus Ormerod cc: architecthetics@mailbase.ac.uk, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Aesthetic terminology In-Reply-To: <19970612125226.11560.qmail@metis.salford.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Daniel JJ Lefebvre Status: O X-Status: It seems to me that we have many words discribing aesthetic experiances. Though it might seem that we have only two, it is because those are the words we place at te top of the hierarcy of aesthetic terminology. Whether or not, philosophers wish to admit it even a word as trite as cute, relates an aesthetic value. Granted it is far less profound than sublime,but the value jugment is still there. Sorry, but despite the lofty idealized definitions of aesthetic experiance given to us by the greate philosophers, I can not be perswaded that it is anything more then a simple experiance of value, and hence all our value statements are part of our aesthetic vocabulary. I think you'll find with the Japaneese that they do not have a larger vocabulary as such, they just aknowledge a much larger array of degrees then we do. On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Marcus Ormerod wrote: > I am reading a really interesting book at the moment on Japanese > aesthetics and garden design. It occurred to me that the Japanese have > quite a few words to describe aesthetic feelings created by their > gardens. Apart from "beauty" and "sublime" what other words do we use > in aesthetic descriptions, and do they invoke the feelings that we > receive ? Is this the reason that Western aesthetics seems to be > stuck in a rut ? would a more extensive vocabulary help to focus > people's minds on what they are experiencing ? > > marcus > E-mail me soon.... please ! > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jun 12 17:25:07 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA10211 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:25:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA04860 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:25:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA19096 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:05:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA19081 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:05:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [209.60.100.4]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA02393 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 16:04:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (s2-98-115.thegrid.net [209.60.98.115]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id OAA02921 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 14:04:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Conversation <19970612125226.11560.qmail@metis.salford.ac.uk> with last message Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mjv@thegrid.net" Subject: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 13:00:53 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id QAA19083 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "mjv@thegrid.net" Status: O X-Status: I am glad to see some activity on the list. (The silences of recent months has been a drag. It is precisely now that it is summer that I have time to play....) Anyway, I was wondering if list members would be interested in discussing the following thesis: 1) Given an ability to reproduce works of visual art like paintings with such accuracy that the technologically un-aided eye cannot tell "copies" from "the real thing," the "copy" and the "real thing" both have the same value. I am not speaking of cash value here, but I don't necessarily think it would be wise to limit consideration to "aesthetic" value, even if that is perhaps a pretty accurate description of the kind of value at issue. (Another point to debate, I suppose.) That said, I do think it worth considering if the currrent "aura" based art market can be justified if "perfect fakes" are possible. It probably can't be justified as it is, but, given "perfect fakes," can there be any justification whatsoever for shelling out large sums of money for "originals"? (Other than the justification that one can make money doing so, of course.) --Marcus Verhaegh __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 00:59:56 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id AAA13639 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:59:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA29926 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:59:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id UAA26786 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:49:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id UAA26779 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:49:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from darius.concentric.net (darius.concentric.net [207.155.184.79]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA27904 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:48:49 -0500 (EST) From: nebbiolo@concentric.net Received: from cliff.concentric.net (cliff [206.173.119.90]) by darius.concentric.net (8.8.5/(97/05/21 3.30)) id VAA09751; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:48:48 -0400 (EDT) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Received: from crc3.concentric.net (ts001d04.stl-mo.concentric.net [206.83.85.16]) by cliff.concentric.net (8.8.5) id VAA02498; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:48:46 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199706130148.VAA02498@cliff.concentric.net> Comments: Authenticated sender is To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 20:46:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v2.42a) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: nebbiolo@concentric.net Status: O X-Status: > 1) Given an ability to reproduce works of visual art like > paintings with such accuracy that the technologically un-aided > eye cannot tell "copies" from "the real thing," the "copy" and > the "real thing" both have the same value. > I am not speaking of cash value here, but I don't necessarily >think it would be wise to limit consideration to "aesthetic" >value, even if that is perhaps a pretty accurate description of >the kind of value at issue. (Another point to debate, I >suppose.) This _is_ an interesting issue, I think. Certainly, if a "perfect copy" is available, it would have equal aesthetic value with the original to the extent that the aesthetic value of the object depended on its appearance. It seems to me, however, that other factors contribute to the value of an art object, though whether or not this value is aesthetic value I will not try to resolve at the moment. Let's take for example a painting, _The Birth of Venus_, by Botticelli. If it were possible to create an exact duplicate, in visual terms, of this painting, it would certainly have much of the value of the original, and those who might be unable to make the trip to Florence to see the original would have the benefit of being able to engage in an experience very like, it seems, the experience of the original. However, there would still be the issue that the copy was, after all, only a copy. The work came into being from the mind (and soul?) and hands of a particular human being. For those who admired the creation, and hence the creator, there would be an added dimension to the experience of seeing, of being near, the original, of knowing as one was swept up in the power and beauty of the work that this particular brush stroke was laid down at some moment long ago by the living hand of the artist, that the artist's eyes ranged over these same patches of paint. I believe, therefore, that an original would still have a certain value that a copy, no matter how good, would not. It is not clear to me to what extent that value is "aesthetic value." ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter Theodore Say what you like, but such things do happen -- not often, but they do happen. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jun 12 18:10:45 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id SAA10445 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA31056 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:10:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA22352 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:11:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA22345 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:11:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [209.60.100.4]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA19662 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:10:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (s2-98-115.thegrid.net [209.60.98.115]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA10952; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:10:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Conversation with last message Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Tony Dowler" , aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mjv@thegrid.net" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 14:07:07 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id RAA22346 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "mjv@thegrid.net" Status: O X-Status: Tony Dawler writes: "First, I think it's fair to say that most artwork still cannot be indistinguishably reporduced by computer (for example, the brush strokes on a canvas), others can (computerized artwork, for example)." I am sure that is true. However, I do think that that technology will not too long from now allow "perfect fakes" undistinguishable from "the real thing" without the aid of x-ray machines, etc.. But be that it as it may, the issue I was raising was not predicated on an actuality, but on the perhaps only hypothetical possibility of "perfect fakes." If "perfect fakes" are/were possible, what then? --Marcus Verhaegh __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jun 12 18:20:01 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id SAA11060 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:20:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA02589 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:20:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA22981 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:30:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA22971 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:30:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA04829 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:30:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA23145; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:30:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 15:30:22 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: Art in the Age of Digital Dissemination: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/art-tech-course.html ____________________________________________________ { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html -- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Thu Jun 12 18:31:55 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id SAA11214 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:31:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA31992 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 18:31:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA23620 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:53:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA23610 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:53:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from relay1.Hawaii.Edu (root@relay1.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.3.53]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id RAA12524 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:53:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu ([128.171.44.6]) by relay1.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <586883(3)>; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:52:32 -1000 Received: from localhost by uhunix1.its.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <17305(4)>; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:53:02 -1000 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 12:53:00 -1000 From: Anthony J Palmer X-Sender: apalmer@uhunix1 To: Marcus Ormerod cc: architecthetics@mailbase.ac.uk, aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Aesthetic terminology In-Reply-To: <19970612125226.11560.qmail@metis.salford.ac.uk> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Anthony J Palmer Status: O X-Status: Marcus: You might look into the aesthetics of noh theater. There are descriptions of gradations of feeling there also. Any discussion of ma might also help you. a palmer On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, Marcus Ormerod wrote: > I am reading a really interesting book at the moment on Japanese > aesthetics and garden design. It occurred to me that the Japanese have > quite a few words to describe aesthetic feelings created by their > gardens. Apart from "beauty" and "sublime" what other words do we use > in aesthetic descriptions, and do they invoke the feelings that we > receive ? Is this the reason that Western aesthetics seems to be > stuck in a rut ? would a more extensive vocabulary help to focus > people's minds on what they are experiencing ? > > marcus > E-mail me soon.... please ! > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 01:00:41 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id BAA13823 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:00:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA05975 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:00:41 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA25631 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:17:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA25624 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:17:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id TAA19278 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:17:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #13) id ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 17:17:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <3346327@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 12 Jun 97 17:17:29 PDT From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: You might want to look at Walter Benjamin's 'The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction' [Zeitschrift fur Socialforschung, V, I, 1936]. It can be found in Benjamin, Illuminations, Schocken Books, 1969, which is still in print. Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 01:02:33 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id BAA13702 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:02:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA06590 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:02:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA27658 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:47:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA27651 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:47:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [209.60.100.4]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA24835 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:47:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (s2-96-92.thegrid.net [209.60.96.92]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id TAA17261; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <199706130209.WAA04537@mail.itw.net> References: Conversation <199706130209.WAA04537@mail.itw.net> with last message <199706130209.WAA04537@mail.itw.net> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "ITW USER" , aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mjv@thegrid.net" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 18:43:41 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id VAA27652 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "mjv@thegrid.net" Status: O X-Status: I will deal with the points mentioned by Catherine Jennings individually. ---------- > > A few questions and ideas came to mind when I read the discussion topics > proposed by Marcus Verhaeghyour: > > 1) There is a difference between value as aesthetic worth and value as > monetary worth. In our society the second too often determines the first, > which causes confusion. I am not sure why you make this point. Nothing I myself have written would imply otherwise, and I doubt there is a large value=monetary-worth loby lurking on this list. > > 2) I am not sure whether you mean "fake" in terms of openly produced > mechanical reproduction, like the facsimiles sold these days by museum > shops; or the masterful work of a forger, passing a pseudo off as an > original. This might seem unbearably picky, but matters ethical have a way > of creeping into aesthetics and clouding discussions about fakery and > forgery. In addition, while museum reproductions seldom have the technical > excellence of the original, forgeries intended to dupe the art establishment > often do. I mention "mechanical reproduction" in allusion the famous essay by Walter Benjamin titled (if memory serves me), "Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction." In this essay, he discusses the loss of "aura" possessed by mechanically reproduced objects, as opposed to the "aura" of hand-made objects. I mean by "fake" (or rather "perfect fake"), a "copy" which indistinguishable (without powerful technology) from an artwork held-up as the "orginal" or "the real thing." I have in mind an ability to make such copies which likely exceeds our current technological abilities, but which I think we will soon possess in full. > > 3) What is originality, and what role does or should it play in determining > aesthetic value? Does this originality lie in the experience or in the > object? Is there a difference (for example) between originality in > pre-printing press literature and originality in painting? "What is orginality?" is a litle more than I am willing to take on at the moment, but it, and the further questions posed (particuraly the last one), seem worth pursuing. > > 4) The idea of "copy" and "original" might be interesting to pursue in the > following areas: in the realm of cast sculpture, which often was and is > produced in limited editions by a foundry with or without the supervision of > the sculptor; and in the area of artist’s prints, where a limited edition is > produced by an artist often in conjunction with a master printmaker. In > both of these areas, we have what the established art world recognizes as > "multiple originals." Yes, artworld discourse on "multiple originals," and "'copies' without an 'original'," is definetly quite interesting. > > 5) The current "‘aura’ based art market" is just that – a market. The aura > is tied to money. Paintings gain acclaim and monetary value by being > "autographs" produced by painters (and their studios) in whose work history > (and the market) has found aesthetic value – a circle, to be sure. But today > attention is often directed to the work as a product to be packaged and sold > to the public, rather than as an aesthetic object. It precisely such bizarrities of the art market that I think a disdain toward mere "copies" engenders. > > 6) What is meant by "the real thing"? Is there a difference between "real > thing" aesthetic object and "real thing" aesthetic experience? Does one > come first? I would say the second determines the first. And what is meant > by "perfect fake"? A painting that is also a forgery might very well have > more aesthetic value than a painting by the artist whose work it pretends to > be. --See above for my explication of the "perfect fake." --Yes, a forgery might be worth more than the "original." While this is an interesting sort of fact to keep in mind, I am not sure if you have some more particular reason for mentioning it. --By "the real thing," I mean the art object or experience which is held-up as "real" because it is further held up as the "original." > > Catherine Jennings > Graduate Student, > Texas Tech University > --Marcus Verhaegh __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 01:02:35 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id BAA13778 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:02:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA25513 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:02:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id XAA28973 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:39:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA28962 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [209.60.100.4]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id XAA00987 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:39:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (s2-97-125.thegrid.net [209.60.97.125]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA03847; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 21:38:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: "Daniel JJ Lefebvre" , aesthetics@indiana.edu Cc: "Tony Dowler" MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mjv@thegrid.net" Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Date: Thu, 12 Jun 97 20:35:16 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id XAA28963 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "mjv@thegrid.net" Status: O X-Status: I think perfection can be relevant in the sense that, if the forgery is less-than-perfect in the way most forgeries have been, it is always going to be argued, sometimes justifiably, that aesthetically significant aspects of the copied artwork are being lost. If it takes some elaborate technology to find the forged nature of an artwork (and there are no reasons to believe the forged nature of the artwork will show to the trained, but naked eye at some _later_ date), then it is much less convincing to make these kinds of arguments. (Of course, there could be artworks where such "ineffable," to-be-sensed-only-with-powerful-technology qualities are aesthetically significant.... But why make them?) As to why we often place a lesser value on copies/imitations, I would again point to the idea that there is an interest in preserving the true/actual "artistic vision," "meaing-intention," or whatever of the artists (or of her age/culture). Of futher importance, of course, is the idea that copies inherently involve faulty preservation. --Marcus Verhaegh ---------- > Pefection here does not seem relevant. The fact is, people have been > making forgeries that will fool the naken eye since people have been > making origonals. Granted some eyes are more naked then others, but the > underlying problem remains the same. If a fake can not be told from the > origonal how can one be said to be worth more than the other? Is it with > the origonal that the added worth comes from the origonallity alone? or Is > it, for example, as Collingwood states, that the aesthetic value itself > come from the origonality and where the second might produce some magical > effect, it itself is not a peace of art. > If we hold that art is imitation, hence three times removed from trueth, > would imitation of art be yet one more step removed? Pehaps that is why > the fake is worth less. > -=dan=- > > On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, mjv@thegrid.net wrote: > > > Tony Dawler writes: "First, I think it's fair to say that most artwork still > cannot be > > indistinguishably reporduced by computer (for example, the brush strokes > > on a canvas), others can (computerized artwork, for example)." > > > > I am sure that is true. However, I do think that that technology will not > too long from now allow "perfect fakes" undistinguishable from "the real > thing" without the aid of x-ray machines, etc.. > > > > But be that it as it may, the issue I was raising was not predicated on an > actuality, but on the perhaps only hypothetical possibility of "perfect > fakes." If "perfect fakes" are/were possible, what then? > > > > --Marcus Verhaegh > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > > > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 01:06:57 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id BAA13749 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:06:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA03323 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:06:57 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id AAA29289 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 00:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id XAA29014 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:42:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from impsat.net.co (venus.impsat.net.co [200.31.17.65]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id XAA09306 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:42:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from default by impsat.net.co (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA01127; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:52:26 +0500 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970612221402.00b8b658@impsat.net.co> X-Sender: dvila@impsat.net.co X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:14:02 -0500 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vil=E1?= Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction In-Reply-To: References: <19970612125226.11560.qmail@metis.salford.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Vil=E1?= Status: O X-Status: Leibnz writes : if there is no reason why two things should be distinguished then it is better to just identify them : one entity is left rather than two. At 01:00 PM 97/06/12 PDT, you wrote: >I am glad to see some activity on the list. (The silences of recent months has been a drag. It is precisely now that it is summer that I have time to play....) > >Anyway, I was wondering if list members would be interested in discussing the following thesis: > > 1) Given an ability to reproduce works of visual art like paintings with such accuracy that the technologically un-aided eye cannot tell "copies" from "the real thing," the "copy" and the "real thing" both have the same value. > > I am not speaking of cash value here, but I don't necessarily think it would be wise to limit consideration to "aesthetic" value, even if that is perhaps a pretty accurate description of the kind of value at issue. (Another point to debate, I suppose.) > > That said, I do think it worth considering if the currrent "aura" based art market can be justified if "perfect fakes" are possible. It probably can't be justified as it is, but, given "perfect fakes," can there be any justification whatsoever for shelling out large sums of money for "originals"? (Other than the justification that one can make money doing so, of course.) > > --Marcus Verhaegh > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 01:09:06 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id BAA14167 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:09:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA13927 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:09:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA28453 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:48:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA28446 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from marlboro.edu (akbar.marlboro.edu [204.4.192.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id WAA27423 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 22:48:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost by marlboro.edu (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id XAA16467; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:47:51 -0400 Date: Thu, 12 Jun 1997 23:47:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Daniel JJ Lefebvre X-Sender: danle@akbar To: "mjv@thegrid.net" cc: Tony Dowler , aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Daniel JJ Lefebvre Status: O X-Status: Pefection here does not seem relevant. The fact is, people have been making forgeries that will fool the naken eye since people have been making origonals. Granted some eyes are more naked then others, but the underlying problem remains the same. If a fake can not be told from the origonal how can one be said to be worth more than the other? Is it with the origonal that the added worth comes from the origonallity alone? or Is it, for example, as Collingwood states, that the aesthetic value itself come from the origonality and where the second might produce some magical effect, it itself is not a peace of art. If we hold that art is imitation, hence three times removed from trueth, would imitation of art be yet one more step removed? Pehaps that is why the fake is worth less. -=dan=- On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, mjv@thegrid.net wrote: > Tony Dawler writes: "First, I think it's fair to say that most artwork still cannot be > indistinguishably reporduced by computer (for example, the brush strokes > on a canvas), others can (computerized artwork, for example)." > > I am sure that is true. However, I do think that that technology will not too long from now allow "perfect fakes" undistinguishable from "the real thing" without the aid of x-ray machines, etc.. > > But be that it as it may, the issue I was raising was not predicated on an actuality, but on the perhaps only hypothetical possibility of "perfect fakes." If "perfect fakes" are/were possible, what then? > > --Marcus Verhaegh > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 01:08:51 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id BAA14300 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:08:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id BAA23754 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 01:08:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA26105 for aesthetics-outgoing; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:46:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA25778 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:24:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.74]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id TAA22064 for ; Thu, 12 Jun 1997 19:22:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (cc2000.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.73]) by ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (8.6.9/3.2W6) with ESMTP id JAA25114 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:22:31 +0900 Received: from [133.101.36.134] by cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (SMI-8.6/6.4J.6) id JAA11219; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:22:28 +0900 Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:22:28 +0900 Message-Id: <199706130022.JAA11219@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> X-Sender: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Subject: Aesthetics: Japanese aesthetic terminology Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Status: O X-Status: Fridaymorning in Kyoto Dear Mr. Ormerod: 1. Please, let me know the title of this "really interesting book on Japanese aesthetics and garden design" in order for me to find out, whether you are talking about the usual Japanese aesthetic terminology ("wabi, sabi, yugen, mono-no aware" etc.) or some specialized one which I am not aware of. 2. If you are talking of the usual one, abandon all hope: It is notoriously vague, so much so, that even the Japanese aestheticians cannot make sense of it. I can prove this to you by sending you some titles of Japanese publications on this topic IN ENGLISH which are available in Western university libraries. 3. Zeami's terminology for the No, mentioned by one colleague, is the most "flowery" (he loves to use flower-metaphors for expressing the stages of aesthetic experience and achievement in his creation, the No). Basho's favorite expressions are a little bit more understandable, but they overlap in a way that would make them useless for Western terminological application. 4. If you can read German (and e-mail me your postal address), I shall send you some publications of mine on the comparability of aesthetic terminology (also Indian and Chinese). A few days ago, I read a paper in Tokyo on a related topic (Do "universal values" in Aesthetics, especially Literature, exist?), which will be out in print in a year and contains lots of literature pertaining to your question. I would be happy to send it to you. Have a nice weekend! (Here, the rainy season is starting.) Wolfgang Ruttkowski *************************************************************** PROF. DR. WOLFGANG RUTTKOWSKI Kyoto Sangyo University, German Department Kamigamo-Motoyama, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 701-2151 Ext. 3384, Fax. 705-1684 or 1799 PRIV: Kitayama Sky Heights 507, 23-1 Dotenjocho, Takagamine, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 492-5640, Fax. 761-6022 E-mail: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/department/lg/rutt-e.html **************************************************************** __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 06:39:21 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id GAA15274 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:39:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id GAA09902 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:39:22 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id EAA03362 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:44:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id EAA03355 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.enterprise.net (root@mail.enterprise.net [194.72.192.20]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA29392 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 04:44:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.72.195.214] ([194.72.196.229]) by mail.enterprise.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA05539 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:47:50 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: gjg@mail.enterprise.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:44:54 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Aesthetic terminology Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Status: O X-Status: Robert Paul recommended: >>Apart from "beauty" and "sublime" what other words do we use in aesthetic >descriptions, and do they invoke the feelings that we receive [sic]?< > >I seriously suggest that you read Frank Sibley's 'Aesthetic Concepts' >(Philosophical Review, October 1959), and light-heartedly suggest that you read >through any copy of Wine Spectator or similar publication. > Frank Sibley used to keep a list of such words - and I suspect that Colin Lyas does too. Ask him. Colin - are you there? PS - Is the book on Japaneese Gardening by Mara Miller? If it isn't, you might read her book - it's rather good. Gordon * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Rev'd Gordon Giles, Treasurer, Christians on the Internet (COIN) Church of the Good Shepherd,19, Hurrell Road, Cambridge, CB4 3RQ (+44] 01223) 464348 ---------------------- http://homepages.enterprise.net/gjg Gordon.Giles@ely.anglican.org __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 07:04:23 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id HAA16560 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:04:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id HAA13219 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 07:04:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id FAA03706 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 05:30:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id FAA03698 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 05:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from sunrise.ccs.yorku.ca (EvTFWJG79AzWPnyRrdOpUgC7it64OBtQ@sunrise.ccs.yorku.ca [130.63.236.87]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id FAA05045 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 05:30:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (ewc@localhost) by sunrise.ccs.yorku.ca (8.8.5/8.6.11) with SMTP id GAA02634; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:29:39 -0400 (EDT) X-Authentication-Warning: sunrise.ccs.yorku.ca: ewc owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:29:39 -0400 (EDT) From: Evan Cameron X-Sender: ewc@sunrise.ccs.yorku.ca To: "mjv@thegrid.net" cc: Tony Dowler , aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Evan Cameron Status: O X-Status: Has anybody bothered to read Nelson Goodman's LANGUAGES OF ART? Evan William Cameron Telephone: 416-736-5149 York University - CFT 216 (Film) Fax: 416-736-5710 4700 Keele Street E-mail: ewc@yorku.ca North York, Ontario Canada M3J 1P3 On Thu, 12 Jun 1997, mjv@thegrid.net wrote: > Tony Dawler writes: "First, I think it's fair to say that most artwork still cannot be > indistinguishably reporduced by computer (for example, the brush strokes > on a canvas), others can (computerized artwork, for example)." > > I am sure that is true. However, I do think that that technology will not too long from now allow "perfect fakes" undistinguishable from "the real thing" without the aid of x-ray machines, etc.. > > But be that it as it may, the issue I was raising was not predicated on an actuality, but on the perhaps only hypothetical possibility of "perfect fakes." If "perfect fakes" are/were possible, what then? > > --Marcus Verhaegh > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 09:38:06 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id JAA17620 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA06335 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:38:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id GAA04364 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:57:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id GAA04357 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:57:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from metis.salford.ac.uk (metis.salford.ac.uk [146.87.232.15]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id GAA21646 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 06:57:29 -0500 (EST) Received: (qmail 6897 invoked by alias); 13 Jun 1997 11:57:06 -0000 Message-ID: <19970613115706.6896.qmail@metis.salford.ac.uk> Received: (qmail 6891 invoked from network); 13 Jun 1997 11:57:06 -0000 Received: from telford-056.salford.ac.uk (HELO Unknown) (146.87.48.56) by metis.salford.ac.uk with SMTP; 13 Jun 1997 11:57:06 -0000 Comments: Authenticated sender is From: "Marcus Ormerod" Organization: University of Salford To: Aesthetics@indiana.edu Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:57:03 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Aesthetics: (Fwd) Aesthetic terminology Priority: normal X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.42) Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Marcus Ormerod" Status: O X-Status: Forwarded message: From: Self To: architecthetics@mailbase.ac.uk Subject: Aesthetic terminology Cc: Aesthetics@Indiana.edu Design-L@lists.psu.edu Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:55:07 +0100 Dear all Thanks for all the replies I am trying something new to me here which is to get a discussion going on three listings simultaneously. What I am now attempting is to summarise the main replies and answer the questions which were raised. Several people asked me which book it was. The answer being Japanese Garden Design by Marc P Keane with photographs by Ohashi Haruzo 1996 published by Charles E Tuttle Co of rutland, Vermont and Tokyo LCC Card No. 96-61007 ISBN 0-8048-2071-6. It is a bit of a coffee table work with great piccies. It covers from prehistoric origins thro Heian aristocrats, Zen Buddhism, Tea Gardens, Tsubo Gradens, Edo stroll gardens and then goes into design principles, techniques and elements. It is written in English which unfortunately is my only language ( and some would say I am inarticulate in that one). Replies to those on Architecthetics: Alex+Ivan referred me to Wittgenstein's argument about the correspondence between words and the actual things to which they refer. Perhaps they are right that we use words to freely and spend little time pondering on the appropriateness of their usage. But this is the way of the world and 9 times out of ten people seem to understand what we say. Presumably the other tenth time the person is mortally wounded or goes away confused. But how do you check for understanding except by using other words which may serve to confuse still further. Daniel made an interesting comment about the words I used being higher in the heirarchy of aesthetic terminology and therefore spring to mind more readily. Do we have a heirarchy if so what is our top ten aesthetic terms ? Also he went on to say that perhaps the japanese terms were no greater in range, but instead provided finer gradations. I'll go along with that - a bit like Eskimos having 16 ways to express the different types of snow (anybody know if that is really true ?) Estella wanted to know what words came up (I apologise for the following if incorrectly spelt and explained as this is solely based on what the book says) mujo-kan - sense of sorrow that pervaded the arts mono-no-aware - the heightened awareness of things yojo - an overflow of emotion yugen - faint/dim and dark/mystery wabi and sabi - beauty in simplicity of common materials used in a refined way so - expression of naturalness shin - thing that are highly controlled or shaped by man shibumi - as wabi/sabi but without certain specific spiritual significances asobi - playfulness tanoshimi - fun I think whilst writing this list what interested me was not the fact that the western culture does not have these terms, otherwise I could not have expressed what they meant, but it made me stop and think about how we use such words and the significance we attach to them Andrew Ballantyne mentions his recently published book: Architecture, landscape and liberty: Richard Payne Knight and thePicturesque (Cambridge University Press, 1997) ISBN 0 521 4600 2. He also mentions the use of picturesque. I thought the term had fallen into disuse but he assures me not. Does it still mean the same as it did in its heyday. Aesthetics online replies Robert Paul suggests I should read Frank Sibley's "Aesthetic Concepts" which I will do. He says on a lighter note that wines have interesting terminology applied to them. This is a remarkable coincidence seeing as I am off to a wine tasting event tonight! Design-L replies John Young is quick to point out lots of modern aesthetic terms. the question I would raise is when is a term used aesthetically and when is it just an off the cuff value judgement ? Are they different ? He also says the terms I use are victorian - in which case I must be a closet victorian who has just come out ! Direct replies Anthony Palmer suggests looking at noh theater. Any hints on texts to start in this field ? Wolfgang Ruttoski from Kyoto asks what type of terms and if they are certain ones then I may as well give up since they are incomprehensible or do not have any value. i think he may be right. But it was the culture shift that interested me. Sorry for the length of this e-mail. If there is anybody still reading this is the debate worth continuing ? marcus I don't have a solution but I admire the problem. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 13:34:35 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id NAA19468 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:34:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA24467 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:34:35 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA08933 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:34:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA08926 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:34:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from sardonyx.tufts.edu (root@sardonyx.tufts.edu [130.64.5.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA25019 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 09:34:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by sardonyx.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA24551 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jharbeck@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA28014 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 10:34:42 -0400 (EDT) From: James Harbeck To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: perfect forgeries Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O X-Status: It interests me that, unless I missed it someplace, nobody has brought up the point that perfect forgeries would have great value simply by dint of their being perfect forgeries. The technique involved in making such a persuasive fake is subject to considerable valuation. Wasn't there a posting on this list somewhere in the last year about a very accomplished forger from England whose forgeries command high prices BECAUSE they are his forgeries, the work of this master forger? We certainly have a fascination with people who can pull swindles off so smoothly; the idea of the "perfect murder" is an analogue to this, and there are any number of movies about antiheroes whom we admire for their slickness (and doubtlessly live our own desires of cheating vicariously through them). Between that cleverness of the swindler and the remarkable technique, it is possible for a perfect forgery to match or even surpass the value of an original, but for different reasons. Clearly the bare-faced aesthetic value (i.e., the impact of an art work independent of accessory information) is not the only thing operant; in fact, I'm not even sure why anyone would think it should be. Unless we all convert to Zen Buddhism and attain enlightenment, we're always going to evaluate things on the basis of prior rational knowledge and GIVE TO things most or all the value they have for us (as opposed to reacting in as reflexive and instinctual a way as possible--but, oh, we had that debate already, and for several moths if I recall correctly). So in short, a perfect forgery would command a high price indeed, even--or especially if--it were known to be such. (Coda: what IS "perfect"? Do we go down to the level of molecules?) Tangent: IMperfect forgeries can also have great value; in fact, they're an important currency of postmodern culture. One of the best examples to come immediately to mind is Andy Warhol's work. :|| (=repeat and end). James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 15:00:29 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id PAA25292 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 15:00:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA26967 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 15:00:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA13954 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:23:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA13947 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:23:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (root@IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA29793 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:23:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL5-ASYNC23.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/28Jan97-0620PM) id AA30866; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:23:14 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:20:52 -0400 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu (Ostrow/Kaneda) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu (Ostrow/Kaneda) Status: O X-Status: > >>You might want to look at Walter Benjamin's 'The Work of Art in the Age of >>Mechanical Reproduction' [Zeitschrift fur Socialforschung, V, I, 1936]. It can >>be found in Benjamin, Illuminations, Schocken Books, 1969, which is still in >>print. >> >>Robert Paul >>robert.paul@reed.edu > >Though published under this title in English, the actual title of this >piece is "Art in the Age of Its Technical Reproducibility" though the >difference is subtle it is significant. > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 14:44:10 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id OAA25227 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:44:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA17379 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:44:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA14026 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA13972 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:24:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (root@IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA13381 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:24:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL5-ASYNC23.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/28Jan97-0620PM) id AA31682; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:23:57 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:21:36 -0400 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu (Ostrow/Kaneda) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: perfect forgeries Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu (Ostrow/Kaneda) Status: O X-Status: >The artist Mike Bidlo has made a career of copying the works of modern >'masters,' he has painted all of Picasso's women paintings, all the Legers >in Swiss museums, a number of Pollocks including Blue Poles etc. He is >neither a copyist, a forger nor a machine. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 14:43:18 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id OAA24990 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:43:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA08139 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:43:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA14021 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:25:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA13994 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:25:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (root@IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA01296 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:25:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from DIAL5-ASYNC23.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU by is2.nyu.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/28Jan97-0620PM) id AA31940; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:25:00 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:22:39 -0400 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu (Ostrow/Kaneda) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu (Ostrow/Kaneda) Status: O X-Status: > >>Tony Dawler writes: "First, I think it's fair to say that most artwork >>still cannot be >>indistinguishably reporduced by computer (for example, the brush strokes >>on a canvas), others can (computerized artwork, for example)." >> >>I am sure that is true. However, I do think that that technology will >>not too long from now allow "perfect fakes" undistinguishable from "the >>real thing" without the aid of x-ray machines, etc.. >> >>But be that it as it may, the issue I was raising was not predicated on >>an actuality, but on the perhaps only hypothetical possibility of >>"perfect fakes." If "perfect fakes" are/were possible, what then? >> >> --Marcus Verhaegh Why would these reproductions or replicas be fakes ? We already have a class of art objects that have no original or are infinitely reproducible. Prints, Photographs, all cast or fabricated sculpture, readymades, and such 'original' paintings that are assembly line produced for the mass market, etc. The issue is a faux one. In part what distinguishes these from let us say a painting is that as a form it tends to result in a singular object. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 14:40:34 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id OAA24678 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:40:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA29853 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:40:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA14422 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:38:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA14415 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:38:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhtexch.valinor.com (mhtexch.valinor.com [206.6.189.2]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id MAA10591 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:38:10 -0500 (EST) Received: by mhtexch.valinor.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC77FF.3451E780@mhtexch.valinor.com>; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:39:23 -0400 Message-ID: From: Tony Dowler To: "'Aesthetics mailing list (E-mail)'" Subject: FW: Aesthetics: (Fwd) Aesthetic terminology Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 13:32:43 -0400 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Tony Dowler Status: RO X-Status: Marcus said----------------------- Alex+Ivan referred me to Wittgenstein's argument about the correspondence between words and the actual things to which they refer. Wittgenstein mentions aesthetic terminology in his Lectures on Aesthetics. I don't have access to the book at present (maybe someone else on the list does). In the third lecture, I beleive, he mentions language games which develope a complicated vocabulary to speak about aesthetic objects. Tony Dowler tdowler@valinor.com > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 18:42:32 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id SAA28896 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:42:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA17394 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:42:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA18232 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:46:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA18220 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:46:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [209.60.100.4]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA27183 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:43:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (s4-96-209.thegrid.net [209.60.96.209]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA07288 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mjv@thegrid.net" Subject: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 11:39:36 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id OAA18221 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "mjv@thegrid.net" Status: O X-Status: I have received a number of emails with references to works dealing with the issues tied-up with my first positing. Often these emails also have the implication that these issues have all already been "solved," or otherwise dealt with in a fashion which apparently exceeds the meager discussion of the aesthetics list. Notably, none of these emails have bothered to explain or _evaluate_ the arguments for which references are given. This is fine, if one has the intention of providing a reference for a work which others might not known about (suffice to say, I haven't learnt of any such works on these issues as of yet). But if one is to ask piercing questions like, "Has anybody bothered to read Nelson Goodman's LANGUAGES OF ART?," etc., I would appreciate it if a bit of explication and evaluation could be provided for the list as well. Now, it may be that some feel the issues raised have been done to death and are as such rather boring. This I could understand. Perhaps I will pose some related, and hopefully more interesting, issues if this is the case (rather than there just being a general lethergy out there). But for the moment I still think it would be worthwile to consider the, um, original thesis--"Given an ability to reproduce works of visual art like paintings with such accuracy that the technologically un-aided eye cannot tell "copies" from "the real thing," the "copy" and the "real thing" both have the same value" (remembering that all those quotes are there for a reason)--WHILE AT THE SAME TIME CONSIDERING WHAT SUCH EQUIVALENCIES OR THE LACK THEREOF MEAN FOR THE ARTMARKET. Is there something rotten in the state of Denmark that has to do with a fetist for originals? __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 18:49:44 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id SAA28754 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:49:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA06635 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 18:49:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA18298 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:48:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA18289 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:48:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA25225 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 14:48:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA16780; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:48:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 12:48:30 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: On Fri, 13 Jun 1997, Ostrow/Kaneda wrote: > >>I am sure that is true. However, I do think that that technology will > >>not too long from now allow "perfect fakes" undistinguishable from "the > >>real thing" without the aid of x-ray machines, etc.. > >> > >>But be that it as it may, the issue I was raising was not predicated on > >>an actuality, but on the perhaps only hypothetical possibility of > >>"perfect fakes." If "perfect fakes" are/were possible, what then? > >> > >> --Marcus Verhaegh > > > Why would these reproductions or replicas be fakes ? We already have a > class of art objects that have no original or are infinitely reproducible. > Prints, Photographs, all cast or fabricated sculpture, readymades, and such > 'original' paintings that are assembly line produced for the mass market, > etc. The issue is a faux one. In part what distinguishes these from let > us say a painting is that as a form it tends to result in a singular > object. > Yes, and not only that; the continual 'restoration' of objets d'art ensures that the 'aura of originality' is defused betwixt additional layers of expertise and authority. -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 21:29:33 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id VAA29679 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:29:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA11071 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:29:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id RAA22461 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:34:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id RAA22454 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:34:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from mhub1.tc.umn.edu (0@mhub1.tc.umn.edu [128.101.131.51]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id RAA01178 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 17:34:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from maroon.tc.umn.edu by mhub1.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 13 Jun 97 17:34:37 -0500 Received: from x94-245-180.ejack.umn.edu by maroon.tc.umn.edu; Fri, 13 Jun 97 17:34:36 -0500 From: "Romain Gril" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Bachelard Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Mailer: POPmail/Lab 1.1.5 Message-Id: <33a1cafd3761306@mhub1.tc.umn.edu> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 97 17:34:37 -0500 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Romain Gril" Status: O X-Status: Bonjour, I am reading a nice article on the French philosopher Gaston Bachelard, who turned from philosophy of science to philosophy of the imagination, but this article is a little old. I am wondering if any of you has references in mind, something about whether there has been any reception of his work in the States. Thanks. Romain Gril U of MN __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Fri Jun 13 22:42:59 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id WAA29550 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:42:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id WAA16527 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:42:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id VAA26593 for aesthetics-outgoing; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:55:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id VAA26586 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:55:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from emout14.mail.aol.com (emout14.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.40]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id VAA08600 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 21:55:01 -0500 (EST) From: LBusbea@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout14.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id WAA04971 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 1997 22:53:45 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970613225344_845098094@emout14.mail.aol.com> To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: LBusbea@aol.com Status: O X-Status: Please pardon my rude interruption of this already well-advanced string. However, it seems fairly obvious to me that the same forces which construct notions about, and values for aesthetic objects, are pretty much identical to those forces determining notions concerning originality, etc.. Accepting this for the moment, it becomes clear why questions concerning advanced reproduction disrupt these traditional categories. In short, the "perfect fake" serves to effectively deconstruct metaphysical notions about aesthetic value and artistic production. The main concept deconstructed is, of course that any of these things are perceivable at all (regardless of the relative clothing of the eye). Furthermore, it seems to me that any refutation of these points cannot avoid falling into a suspect rhetoric of "artists' souls," and "expressive value," etc.. Best to all, Lawrence Busbea __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 02:23:35 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id CAA31819 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:23:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA14119 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 02:23:36 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id BAA29724 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:33:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id BAA29717 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:33:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from reed.edu (root@amon.reed.edu [134.10.2.10]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id BAA14561 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:33:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from isis.Reed.EDU [134.10.2.1 no identification] by reed.edu (Smail-3.2.0.91 1997-Jan-14 #13) id ; Fri, 13 Jun 1997 23:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <3350951@isis.Reed.EDU> Date: 13 Jun 97 23:33:10 PDT From: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Robert.Paul@directory.Reed.EDU (Robert Paul) Status: O X-Status: The notion of reproducing works of art is problematic only in cases in which there is an 'original' which stands apart in some important way from reproductions of it. Paradigm cases of such works are paintings, ink sketches, and watercolors. Lithographs, etchings, woodblock prints, etc., which are (usually) intended to be produced in runs or editions are different, but similar: different in that there is (usually) no single original, but rather multiple 'originals'; similar in that if a lithograph impressed on paper by the artist from the original stone is photocopied, this would seem to be a copy of something. To say this is just to say that a photocopy of a lithograph is not a lithograph; and if the work was originally a lithograph, the photocopy not an original. And so with drypoint etchings and photocopies of them, photographic enlargements made on photographic paper and photocopies of them, etc. There's no question that a lithograph might be copied so well that the the copy was indistinguishable from the original. Nor, pace Leibniz, is there any reason why a skilled forger might not copy Botticelli's 'Venus' so skillfully that it was absolutely indistinguishable except by carbon dating from the original. If this is so, then whatever features 'Venus' has, the forgery will have too. Moreover, it's certainly possible that a forgery should be an improvement, aesthetically, on an original. (The forger does not make an *exact* copy, but the forger's unintended deviations from the original make the forgery better in ways that perceptive observers can detect and agree upon.) So it's clear that a forgery can have all of the aesthetic merit of an original--and then some. So, what's wrong with a forgery? Perhaps we should back up. As Brad Brace has already pointed out, not every *copy* is eo ipso a forgery or a fake. Photocopies are not forgeries just because they're copies. The first print struck from a plate or block is not the original and those struck afterwards forgeries. To say that one owns an original Kollwitz etching is to say (usually) that one owns one of a series of a certain work. Commonly, a run of prints will be numbered n/m, where n is the order in which the print was made, and m the number of prints made. (There may be questions about the aesthetic merit of n/m vs. n+1/m; for not all prints are created equal: but these will not be questions about the aesthetic merit of an original vs. a copy.) To say that one owns a photocopy of the same etching, even one indistinguishable from an original, is to say that one owns something of which there are potentially many more than there are etchings in the series. And if it really is indistinguishable from one of the better members of the series, the only reason an 'original' would be 'more valuable' would be that it was rarer than a photocopy. Do we prize rarity? Yes; but why we do and whether we should are not, as far as I can see, aesthetic questions, and I don't want to discuss them here. The question: what's wrong--aesthetically--with a forgery? seems to have become confused with the--moral?--question: what's wrong with forging? What's wrong with forging is pretty much like what's wrong with plagiarism. If, in a society in which the rarity, age, and provenance of certain works of visual art are prized, a forgery purports to be something that it is not, one who buys the forgery in the belief that it is an original is to that extent cheated. On the other hand, I see no reason why I could not commission the Hypertechnic Painting Replicators to reproduce--in all their microscopic surface detail--Botticelli's 'Venus' or Morris Graves's 'Little Known Bird of the Inner Eye' and derive from what are acknowledged all around to be copies every quantum of aesthetic pleasure that I might derive from the originals. What's wrong with a forgery is that it purports to be something that it is not; but a copy need make no such claim. And if original and copy really are identical, then it ought to follow straightforwardly that whatever can be derived from the former can be derived from the latter--except perhaps, a certain smugness at possessing something rare and expensive. Robert Paul robert.paul@reed.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 03:58:49 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id DAA32585 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:58:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA12619 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:58:49 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA00560 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:06:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA00553 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:06:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [209.60.100.4]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA31900 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:06:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (s2-97-98.thegrid.net [209.60.97.98]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA02259 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:06:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3350951@isis.Reed.EDU> References: Conversation <3350951@isis.Reed.EDU> with last message <3350951@isis.Reed.EDU> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mjv@thegrid.net" Subject: Aesthetics: The Age of Technical Reproducibility Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 00:03:42 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id DAA00554 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "mjv@thegrid.net" Status: O X-Status: Re: Robert Paul's analysis of forgery, originals, etc.: I agree with almost everything Robert Paul has written. I would just like to mention that when I spoke of "'perfect fakes'," I did not have forgeries in particular in mind, nor any kind of particular kind of copy in mind other than very good ones--i.e., ones very hard to distinguish from the "original." And I don't think anyone else on this list has suggested that there is something wrong with forgeries. I therefore take it that when Robert Paul says, "The question: what's wrong--aesthetically--with a forgery? seems to have become confused with the--moral?--question: what's wrong with forging?," he is not refering to a confusion in the discussion on this list, but to some more general kind of confusion in society. But I wonder if this is really true of soceital understanding of forgeries and copies. Is there not some more deap-seated reason we so often de-value forgeries and copies in general--one based in the history of Western metaphysics? Why is that even if one proposes a hypothetical "Hypertechnic Painting Replicator," it is still very difficult for many to truly agree that "if original and copy really are identical, then it ought to follow straightforwardly that whatever can be derived from the former can be derived from the latter...," and that the products of the "Replicator" are therefore of the same value as the model? (This at least true if we fudge the "identical" above even slightly to "almost totally identical," as we should--just to make things interesting, for one.) Many people really do believe in the "aura" of an "original," that it is special because it has the "touch" of the artist. Whatever the answer to this question, I think it is at least partly for similar reasons that the artmarket is still obsessed with "originals." New artists are still pushed to produced works which are singular, and as such are difficult to "perfectly" copy--works that can be sold for big bucks. And so I think a prime question is: what is wrong, ethically and perhaps aesthetically, with "originals"? --Marcus Verhaegh __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 04:47:00 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id EAA00150 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:47:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA30709 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA00789 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:49:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA00782 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:49:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from gridsat.thegrid.net (root@gridsat.thegrid.net [209.60.100.4]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id DAA22593 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:49:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from unknown (s4-96-225.thegrid.net [209.60.96.225]) by gridsat.thegrid.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA04710 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 01:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "mjv@thegrid.net" Subject: Aesthetics: The Age of Technical Reproducibility Date: Sat, 14 Jun 97 00:45:48 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id DAA00783 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "mjv@thegrid.net" Status: O X-Status: Addendum: It occurs to me an equally valid question is, "What is right, ethically and aesthetically, with 'originals'?" __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 04:00:02 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id EAA31649 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:00:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA22235 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 04:00:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id DAA00571 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:07:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id DAA00564 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:07:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.74]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id DAA11185 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 03:07:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (cc2000.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.73]) by ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (8.6.9/3.2W6) with ESMTP id RAA12303 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:07:10 +0900 Received: from [133.101.36.149] by cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (SMI-8.6/6.4J.6) id RAA18940; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:07:06 +0900 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:07:06 +0900 Message-Id: <199706140807.RAA18940@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Subject: Aesthetics: Original versus copy/imitation/reproduction Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Status: O X-Status: The question posed seems to me to be a perfect illustration for the usefulness of one of Roman Ingarden's differentiations, that between ARTISTIC and AESTHETIC value found in the artistic object (Kunstgegenstand) and aesthetic object (aesthetischer Gegenstand) resp. : 1. If aesthetic value exists at all, it would certainly have to be based on the original work of art AND its perfect double. As long as both can provoke (in our act of "concretization") an identical aesthetic experience, BOTH, the original and its PERFECT imitation or reproduction ARE EXCHANGEABLE AND OF IDENTICAL AESTHETIC VALUE. Where else could it exist? In its certificate of authentication? (a joke) - In the biography of the artist? (of course not! If we knew NOTHING about the artist, this should not affect the value of the work itself.) - In the "aura" of the work, considering who made it, touched it and saw it, as one collegue suggests? (these are SENTIMENTAL considerations, appropriate for a heirloom, not aesthetical ones) 2. What differentiates original and perfect reproduction is merely a HISTORICAL (not an aesthetical) criterium: the time (and historical environment) of their production. The fake would be merely a TECHNICAL achievement. The original would be an ARTISTIC achievement (in its time and environment!), meaning an advancement and/or refinement in the way of seeing or experiencing or depicting our world etc. Let me repeat: the AESTHETIC value would be identical, if we speak about a PERFECT imitation. 3. The question of market value is too banal as that I would care to go into it. An interesting question (worth our efforts) would be, whether only the ARTISTIC value is relativ (to historical and cultural environment) or also the AESTHETIC value. (I believe the latter.-) I have to ask your indulgence for my poor command of English. Last night, our server refused to send this off. Today: a brillant summer morning. But it will not last. This makes it so precious. (Japanese aesthetic experience ... I shall answer to those colleagues, who wrote to me on behalf of the question of terminology and requested off-prints separately.) WOLF *************************************************************** PROF. DR. WOLFGANG RUTTKOWSKI Kyoto Sangyo University, German Department Kamigamo-Motoyama, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 701-2151 Ext. 3384, Fax. 705-1684 or 1799 PRIV: Kitayama Sky Heights 507, 23-1 Dotenjocho, Takagamine, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 492-5640, Fax. 761-6022 E-mail: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/department/lg/rutt-e.html **************************************************************** __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 09:19:03 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id JAA00858 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA02261 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 09:19:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA02544 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:26:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA02534 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:26:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA24207 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 08:26:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 15:26:18 +0200 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 15:26:10 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 15:26:41 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: O X-Status: I would like to suggest a "slight" modification of the original proposition for this thread. The sentence reads as follows: "Given an ability to reproduce works of visual art like paintings with such accuracy that the technologically un-aided eye cannot tell "copies" from "the real thing," the "copy" and the "real thing" both have the same value" (Note that I think it might be necessary to add quotation marks to "value" here, for the word seems open to all kinds of possible interpretations) And then, here's my version: "Given an ability to reproduce elements of the world (like curtains) with such accuracy that the manually un-aided eye cannot tell "copies" from "the real thing," the "copy" and the "real thing" both have the same value" Isn't the question of "copies" and "real things" that's been agitated in various forms ever since the readymades (and seems to pop up again here in its appropriationist postmodern form), just the old question of illusionism evoked in the story of Zeuxis and Parrhasios? It seems the "value" of the "copy" as a "real copy" is revealed as a "real value" only as it is denounced as a "copy," exactly in the same way as the value of an illusionist painting resides in its being denounced as illusionist. I sometimes wonder whether such examples do not illustrate the fact that deep at the heart of the question of representation some kind of "re-petitive" and reflexive impulse is to be found. Hope this may generate reactions. Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 11:15:33 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA01489 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA03148 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:15:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA03837 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:24:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA03825 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:24:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from sardonyx.tufts.edu (root@sardonyx.tufts.edu [130.64.5.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA32195 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 10:24:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by sardonyx.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA10044 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:24:50 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jharbeck@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA14507 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:24:49 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:24:49 -0400 (EDT) From: James Harbeck To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: copies etc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O X-Status: I think Bertrand Rouge has put his finger on something very important here. Whereas Wolfgang Ruttkowski says that the aesthetic value of a perfect copy would be identical, Bertrand notes that the aesthetic value consisting in materials which are not ostended as works of art is not dependent on questions of source or history and shows by implication that the valuation of materials ostended as art IS dependent on source and history. In short, as with all semiotic phenomena, the meaning (or value) of a work of art is influenced by--in fact, largely dependent on--background knowledge. If I see a set of drapes, I will certainly have an automatic aesthetic reaction to their appearance: their redness, say, will connect with my (apparently) innate valuation of red, their visible texture will key into memories of tactility; if they have an interesting pattern, I will evaluate that on the basis of previous experiences of and thoughts regarding patterns, and so their value for me will already at that point be dependent on qualities which I give to them on the basis of my own intellectual history. Should I then learn that they used to belong to the Queen of England, and/or should I learn that they are presented as an art work called, say, "Serrano's Period," that information will certainly be beyond what is present physically in the drapes themselves, but we have already gotten past the level of pure inherency, we went past it in fact the moment I remembered associations I had with red or with the tactility of velvet, to say nothing of evaluations of patterns. From the very beginning I have given the drapes the bulk of their meaning for me, and now that I know that they are an art work called "Serrano's Period" I have more value to give them, more history to construct for them, they become as it were a different object for me. The complete cognitive schema I have for them now includes a number of ramifications leading in very interesting intellectual and emotional directions from the basic perceptible qualities. This whole schema is for me their meaning as an art work; all of the ramifications increase their aesthetic value; if I learn that they have been sold for $2.7 million, that will add a further thrill of interest which, having emotional aspects, cannot be completely separated from their aesthetic value for me either, even though it is farther from the center. So the aesthetic value of a pair of drapes and the aesthetic value of the same pair of drapes perceived as an artwork will be different; if two people see the drapes and one does not know that they are being ostended as a work of art and the other does, then those two people are not seeing the same thing, because they are not recognizing it in the same way. For that matter, no two people would ever see EXACTLY the same pair of drapes no matter what, as their own individual experiences etc. of the pertinent (and externally assigned) qualities will differ. The intersection of all the pairs of drapes that everybody sees is the physical entity itself; but physical entities themselves have no value, aesthetic or otherwise, nor for that matter even any recognized existence, until we give it to them. The short of it is: I disagree with Wolfgang. A copy and an original will not have the same aesthetic value, because we recognize them as "copy" and "original" and those ideas are inextricably part of the object we perceive by being part of our mode of perception of them. If, however, we were to see them not as "copy" and "original" but as two identical instances, they WOULD have the same value. The value does not inhere; it is always given. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. If I did, I wouldn't use language. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 12:51:50 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA02253 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:51:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA25320 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 12:51:51 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA04680 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA04673 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:43:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.enterprise.net (root@mail.enterprise.net [194.72.192.20]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA05050 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:43:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.72.196.185] (ppp439.enterprise.net [194.72.196.185]) by mail.enterprise.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA26893 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:46:43 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: gjg@mail.enterprise.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:43:44 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Status: O X-Status: >Has anybody bothered to read Nelson Goodman's LANGUAGES OF ART? > I assumed this was to be taken for granted. But if nit, Wollheim's Art and its Objects would also be relevant and a must. Gordon * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Rev'd Gordon Giles, Treasurer, Christians on the Internet (COIN) Church of the Good Shepherd,19, Hurrell Road, Cambridge, CB4 3RQ (+44] 01223) 464348 ---------------------- http://homepages.enterprise.net/gjg Gordon.Giles@ely.anglican.org __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 14:15:44 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id OAA02787 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:15:43 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA19109 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:15:44 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA06072 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:30:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA06065 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:30:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [205.252.116.101]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA00121 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 13:30:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from sashai.erols.com (rcm-as1s40.erols.com [207.172.61.40]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA24691; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:31:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33A2E360.2A1A@erols.com> Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:30:56 -0400 From: Chris Cochrane X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu CC: sashai@erols.com, boyd@peak.org, paradi@IONET.NET Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Aesthetic terminology References: <19970612125226.11560.qmail@metis.salford.ac.uk> <33A04649.2BF4@erols.com> <33A20EED.1B3A@erols.com> <33A2DBB6.3C14@erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Chris Cochrane Status: O X-Status: Marcus Ormerod writes, > I am reading a really interesting book (Keane's _J. Garden Design) > at the moment on Japanese aesthetics and garden design. It occurred to > me that the Japanese have quite a few words to describe aesthetic > feelings created by their gardens. Apart from "beauty" and "sublime" > what other words do we use in aesthetic descriptions, and do they > invoke the feelings that we receive ? I found Marc Keane's book interesting, as well. Most of his aesthetic concepts are covered in more detail by Sen'ichi Hisamatsu in his small but excellent _The Vocabulary of Japanese Literary Aesthetics_, but Keane does a nice job of linking changes in garden design, aesthetics and culture. Hisamatsu's text relating Zen to J. aesthetics is also very revealing. Many of the J. aesthetic concepts changed dramatically over time as they were popularized by different segments of the population-- from ancient court aesthetics to those of feudal warlords to ecclesiastical tea aesthetics to rise of the shogunate and "wabi-tea" aesthetics to rise of the middle class and "floating world" aesthetics et al.. Keane leaves the impression that each J. aesthetic concept is somewhat suigeneris. Hisamatsu both clarifies the common understandings of these terms and the sometimes obfuscating layers of tradition and metaphor that have attached to them. When a refined-but-foppish interpretation of beauty transforms an earlier interpretation, it closely reflects the cultural bias of the an ascendent group in Japanese society. In the West, our usually incremental changes in understanding of beauty also deeply related to culture, but the rhythmic values of universal beauty is seen to change very little. In addition to garden design, much is available on J. aesthetics in texts on gift wrapping, ikebana, literature, folk art as well as fine art, noh theatre, linguistics, architecture, suiseki (viewing stones) & bonsai, carpentry (Way of the Tool), tea ceremony, philosophy et al. One of the best text which extends comment beyond literary aesthetics to other art forms is Makota Ueda's _Literary and Art Theories in Japan_-- including commentary on Noh theatre, kabuki & puppet theatre. For a great read on Noh theatre try Ernest Fenellosa/Ezra Pound's _"Noh" or Accomplishment_. The heart of the form extends far beyond emphasis on flower analogies. I share concern that one of the most popular texts now distributed on wabi-sabi is totally, and I imagine intentionally, obscuring. Can the differences of Japanese aesthetic concepts from Western be ascribed to "a larger array of degrees?" In the West, aesthetes cultivate a sense of the beautiful, but aesthetic philosophers constructs theories to explain experience that dimenishes the ego as a result of the immensity of contemplating the beautiful. With theorizing as its vehicle and beauty and sublimity as it's primary destinations, Western philosophy has cut a clear aesthetic path. The path is very close to the Western searches for truth and goodness. Little wonder that an aesthetic philosopher questions his posture when a thread opens on the relative worth of original art and the "perfect copy." Would an aesthete rationalize at all in answering? In the Japanese search for aesthetics, theory has been less the focus. While even ancient texts pondered what previous generations' artist were creating, most action and effort was expended in practical application of aesthetics-- in preparing a host to entertain guests with the purpose of achieving an experience of the sublime. To achieve the experience of the sublime (e.g. "mu" or no-mind in Zen), the host or performer or haiku master et al. didn't need to extemporize on theory but did need to elicit emotional response. Thus J. aesthetic terms lean heavily on providing a voice to interpret emotive experiences. Among the best sources for Asian aesthetic study are books and monographs written at the turn of the century. A series of small books/ pamphlets published for the Japanese Tourist Library in the 1930s is also very insightful. I would especially recommend the _Floral Art of Japan (vol. 11)_ as revealing (note that in this unusual translation "furyu" is referenced as "huryu"). A number of sites on the net do a great job of introducing J. aesthetics. In 1995 the Venice Biennial's web page noted that its themes would centered upon Japanese aesthetic concepts of "suki" and "mu." Were any of the aesthetics mail list folks involved? I'd like to hear how this was achieved... :) Best wishes in your search, Marcus. I'd very much appreciate hearing from you again. Chris... C. Cochrane, sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 17:11:38 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA04055 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:11:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA27942 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 17:11:39 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA08175 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:24:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA08168 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:24:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.unixg.ubc.ca (mail.unixg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.14]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id QAA07645 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 16:24:34 -0500 (EST) Received: from interchg.ubc.ca [137.82.27.42] (lburkhdl) by mail.unixg.ubc.ca with smtp (Exim 1.61 #1) id 0wd0JE-0003fM-00; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:24:33 -0700 Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 14:24:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Leslie Burkholder X-Sender: lburkhdl@interchg.ubc.ca To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Re: copies etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Leslie Burkholder Status: O X-Status: Really? Suppose a set of curtains or drapes is hand-made and another identical set is machine-made. Many people would think the first of greater worth -- although possibly not aesthetic worth -- than the second set. Perhaps these people are just mistaken. Leslie Burkholder On Sat, 14 Jun 1997, James Harbeck wrote: > I think Bertrand Rouge has put his finger on something very > important here. Whereas Wolfgang Ruttkowski says that the aesthetic value > of a perfect copy would be identical, Bertrand notes that the aesthetic > value consisting in materials which are not ostended as works of art is > not dependent on questions of source or history ... > [much deleted] __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sat Jun 14 19:08:09 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id TAA04708 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:08:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA03958 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 19:08:10 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA09246 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:11:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA09239 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:11:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.74]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id SAA07003 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 18:11:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (cc2000.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.73]) by ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (8.6.9/3.2W6) with ESMTP id IAA09789 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 08:11:04 +0900 Received: from [133.101.36.143] by cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (SMI-8.6/6.4J.6) id IAA02746; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 08:11:00 +0900 Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 08:11:00 +0900 Message-Id: <199706142311.IAA02746@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Subject: Aesthetics: Responses to my remarks on imitation etc. Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Status: O X-Status: If we keep mixing the different kinds of values (utilitarian, economical or monetary, ethical, aesthetical) we will never reach a clarification of the issue. Also: a PERFECT copy is a PERFECT copy (and not something approaching it). One can very well talk about a PERFECT copy (as the colleague, who raised the question, intended to), even if it cannot be made (yet). A handmade curtain differs from a machine made one by the slight irregularities in texture, which we enjoy aesthetically, because they give it "that human touch". If the irregularities can also be produced by a machine and we do not perceive the slightest difference any longer, then the two curtains are of EQUAL aesthetic value. If we nevertheless pay more for the first one, since we know that it comes from the workshop of a great master, then we are talking about ECONOMICAL (or name-) value. (Also if I learn that they have been sold before for 2.7 million. I fail to see, how this fact could have ANYTHING to do with an aesthetic response.) If we treasure it, because our grandmother used to hide behind it as a little girl, we talk about SENTIMENTAL value. If we know, that Charlemagne covered his precious parts with that curtain, it will attain (for us) HISTORICAL value regardless of whether it has any artistic or aesthetic (not the same!) merit. If the colour of the curtains reminds me of "Serrano's Period" (Harbeck) , they will gain (for me, and only for me!) an ASSOCIATIVE value, something utterly private. There is no need of artworks for evoking associations. Certain cookies will do the job (Proust). "No two people would ever see EXACTLY the same pair of drapes no matter what, as their own individual experiences etc." This is a commonplace of aesthetics and I have nothing to quarrel with it. "Physical entities themselves have no value, aesthetic or otherwise, nor for that matter even any recognized existence, until we give it to them." - I do not contradict (and this has nothing to do with my argument), but I would like to add: What KIND of value(s) we project into objects depends entirely on us (on our personality structure), BUT WE SHOULD BE CONSCIOUS OF THE KINDS OF VALUES WE PROJECT, EVEN IF IT IS PROBABLY ALWAYS A COMBINATION OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF VALUES. Saturday morning in Kyoto ... Wolfgang Ruttkowski *************************************************************** PROF. DR. WOLFGANG RUTTKOWSKI Kyoto Sangyo University, German Department Kamigamo-Motoyama, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 701-2151 Ext. 3384, Fax. 705-1684 or 1799 PRIV: Kitayama Sky Heights 507, 23-1 Dotenjocho, Takagamine, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 492-5640, Fax. 761-6022 E-mail: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/department/lg/rutt-e.html **************************************************************** __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jun 15 00:18:24 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id AAA06191 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:18:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id AAA21800 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 00:18:25 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id WAA13401 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:55:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from manuka.terrigal.net.au (root@manuka.terrigal.net.au [203.16.244.91]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id WAA13394 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 22:55:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from cynthia (ppp158 [203.16.244.158]) by manuka.terrigal.net.au (8.8.4/8.6.9) with SMTP id NAA14896 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 13:55:40 +1000 Message-ID: <33A368D8.11F@terrigal.net.au> Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 14:00:24 +1000 From: Cynthia Birrer Organization: BI & Associates X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: Returned mail Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Cynthia Birrer Status: O X-Status: My server has informed me that a communication from yourself could not be delivered and has been returned to 'owner' at above address. How can I help you? Cynthia Birrer. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jun 15 04:18:58 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id EAA08141 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 04:18:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id EAA18157 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 04:18:58 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id CAA16580 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:55:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id CAA16573 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:55:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id CAA22104 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 02:55:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:54:58 +0200 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:54:52 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 15 Jun 1997 09:55:23 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Responses to my remarks on imitation etc. Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: O X-Status: Wolfgang Ruttkowski writes: >a PERFECT copy is a PERFECT copy (and not >something approaching it). One can very well talk about a PERFECT copy (as >the colleague, who raised the question, intended to), even if it cannot be >made (yet). I would certainly agree with that. The only question is: when is a copy perfect? (and then, possibly: what's the point of a perfect copy?) If the copy is perfect and I don't know it's a copy, then there is no difference. If there is no difference, I can't tell which is a copy, and hence can't tell whether it is perfect as a copy, either. But fundamentally, as long as I can't tell it from the original, it is not a copy to me and can't be singled out as perfect. In brief, when the copy is perfect, it can't be identified as such (maybe because my perception is imperfect...). Then, suppose I know that this is a copy even though I can't perceptually discern it from the original which is beside it. Then there is a difference, for I may discern conceptually. However perfect, the copy is distinguished from the original: it thus becomes imperfect. To sum up, the copy is bound to be either inexistent as a copy (and false, i.e., untrue to its nature as a copy), or imperfect. To this extent, one may say that a copy can never be perfect, at least as long as its purpose is to fool. In other words, the perfect copy would be the self-denounced perceptually indiscernible copy (and this should mean it denounces itself and is not just denounced by an affixed label, which makes it quite difficult--and contradictory). Let us just imagine this could be possible. Well, then the question of "value" could not be raised, because the copy would self-denounce itself as belonging to another realm altogether... Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Sun Jun 15 19:18:19 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id TAA12610 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:18:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA04453 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 19:18:20 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA25906 for aesthetics-outgoing; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:11:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA25895 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:11:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.derby.ac.uk (unix2.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA25592 for ; Sun, 15 Jun 1997 18:11:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.176.130.50] (serialA31.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.50]) by unix2.derby.ac.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA01025 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 00:09:37 +0100 Message-Id: <199706152309.AAA01025@unix2.derby.ac.uk> Subject: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy Date: Mon, 16 Jun 97 00:17:30 +0100 x-sender: aart579@unix1.derby.ac.uk x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Giles Peaker To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Giles Peaker Status: O X-Status: On 15-6-97, Bertrand Rouge wrote: >If the copy is perfect and I don't know it's a copy, then there is no >difference. If there is no difference, I can't tell which is a copy, and >hence can't tell whether it is perfect as a copy, either. But >fundamentally, as long as I can't tell it from the original, it is not a >copy to me and can't be singled out as perfect. In brief, when the copy is >perfect, it can't be identified as such (maybe because my perception is >imperfect...). I think that the confusions that you get into are only due to the way in which you value your terms. First of all, you presume that the copy is of a pre-extant original, and as various people have pointed out, this is not true for photography, prints, serial minimalist works, cast sculpture, etc. Second, by doing this, you ascribe authenticity to the 'original' which means that you can only consider the copy as secondary (derivatory, perhaps) and so the upshot is that you see the copy as setting itself in the place of the original - thus it either 'is the same as' the original, or is a fake in your terms: >To sum up, the copy is bound to be either inexistent as a copy (and false, >i.e., untrue to its nature as a copy), or imperfect. To this extent, one >may say that a copy can never be perfect, at least as long as its purpose >is to fool. What value do you see in the 'original' that leads you into these convolutions? Given that this discussion originally went under the heading of "The work of Art..." after the Benjamin essay, it might be useful to recall that Benjamin (amongst many other things) was concerned with modes of reception - and the technical means that developed to satisfy those modes of reception. He was not particularly interested in the copying of 'original' or aural works, but in techniques that involved reproducibility as their basic component (photography, film). It is also a neat (dialectical) irony that the one way in which most correspondents have acknowledged - reluctantly or dismissively - that 'authenticity' is marked in the contemporary world (i.e. market value) is exactly the point where all works become equivalent to each other, at least to the extent that they can all be measured or valued in the same way. One Van Gogh = Four Picassos = Forty De Koonings and so on (and on and on). Not a good measure, certainly, but one that does suggest the complications of the value of 'the original' extend beyond the current parameters of this discussion. Yours Giles Giles Peaker Historical and Theoretical Studies School of Art and Design, University of Derby, Britannia Mill, Mackworth Road, Derby. DE22 3BL (U.K.) +44 (0)1332 622222 ext. 4063 G.Peaker@derby.ac.uk Editorial Collective:Detours and Delays. An occasional journal of aesthetics and politics __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 16 08:12:06 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id IAA17817 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:12:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA17089 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 08:12:06 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id GAA02923 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:23:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id GAA02916 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.74]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id GAA10034 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 06:22:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (cc2000.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.73]) by ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (8.6.9/3.2W6) with ESMTP id UAA23477 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:22:47 +0900 Received: from [133.101.36.147] by cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (SMI-8.6/6.4J.6) id UAA13320; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:22:42 +0900 Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:22:42 +0900 Message-Id: <199706161122.UAA13320@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> X-Sender: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Subject: Aesthetics: BERTRAND ROUGE'S COMMENTS CONCERNING MY LETTER Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Status: O X-Status: I PLACE MY COMMENTS IN CAPITALS RIGHT BEHIND THE PASSAGES I CANNOT AGREE WITH. WOLFGANG RUTTKOWSKI >Wolfgang Ruttkowski writes: > >>a PERFECT copy is a PERFECT copy (and not something approaching it). One can >>very well talk about a PERFECT copy (as the colleague, who raised the >>question, intended to), even if it cannot be made (yet). > >I would certainly agree with that. The only question is: when is a copy >perfect? THIS IS A TOTALLY UNRELATED QUESTION WHICH CAN ONLY BE ANSWERED >WITHIN EACH ARTISTIC MEDIUM AND IN EACH INDIVIDUAL CASE. OR DO YOU MEAN THE >OBVIOUS ANSWER: A PERFECT COPY COULD NOT BE IDENTIFIED, IF WE WOULD NOT HAVE >THE ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ABOUT WHICH WORK IS "AUTHENTIC"? (and then, >possibly: what's the point of a perfect copy? THERE ARE MANY CONCEIVABLE >REASONS: E.G. COPYING A WORK AND PLACING IT IN A DIFFERENT SHELTER AT TIME OF >BOMBING RAIDS.- OR A RICH MAN SENDING A COPIST INTO A GALLERY, BECAUSE HE >WANTS TO HAVE A BELOVED MASTERWORK IN HIS HOUSE.- THIS TYPE OF QUESTION JUST >LEADS US AWAY FROM THE LEGITIMATE AESTHETICAL QUESTION OF WHETHER THERE IS AN >AESTHETIC DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MASTERWORK AND COPY. AND WHY DID NOBODY UTILIZE >INGARDEN'S DIFFERENTIATION BETWEEN THE "AESTHETIC" OBJECT (THE VALUE OF WHICH >IS DETERMINED BY THE KIND OF AESTHETIC IMPACT IT CAN HAVE) AND THE "ARTISTIC" >OBJECT (VALUED IN A HISTORICAL CONTEXT AS A TECHNICAL AND SPIRITUAL >ACHIEVEMENT) ? > >If the copy is perfect and I don't know it's a copy, then there is no >(AESTHETIC!) difference.(THERE IS AN ARTISTIC DIFFERENCE, BECAUSE OF THE PLACE >IN THE HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT OF ART, WHICH THE ORIGINAL OCCUPIES). If there >is no difference, I can't tell which is a copy (WHY NOT? YOU COULD BE TOLD! >THERE ARE ALREADY SEVERAL "PERFECT" COPIES OF MONA LISA, BUT WE NERVERTHELESS >THINK WE KNOW THAT THE ORIGINAL IS IN THE LOUVRE.),and hence can't tell >whether it is perfect as a copy, either.( I REALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS WAY >OF REASONING: AS SOON AS YOU PLACE TWO VERSIONS NEXT TO EACH OTHER, WE KNOW >THAT ONE MUST BE A COPY. AND IF THE TWO VERSIONS ARE INDISTINGUISHABLE, ONE >MUST BE A PERFECT COPY. THE EXPERT, WHO TRACED THE WAY OF THE ORIGINAL, MIGHT >EVEN KNOW, WHICH ONE IS THE ORIGINAL.- WHAT DO THESE CONSIDERATIONS HAVE TO DO >WITH AESTHETICS?) But fundamentally, as long as I can't tell it from the >original, it is not a copy to me (RIGHT) and can't be singled out as perfect >(WRONG). In brief, when the copy is perfect, it can't be identified as such >(WRONG: THERE ARE OTHER WAYS OF KNOWING, E.G. THE LINEAGE OF OWNERS) (maybe >because my perception is imperfect...IF THE COPY IS "PERFECT", YOU WILL NOT >KNOW FROM LOOKING ALONE, EVEN WITH PERFECT PERCEPTION). > >Then, suppose I know that this is a copy even though I can't perceptually >discern it from the original which is beside it (AHA! SO YOU AGREE WITH ME >AFTER ALL, THAT THIS IS A POSSIBILITY). Then there is a difference, for I may >discern conceptually (WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THIS FANCY EXPRESSION? DO YOU SIMPLY >WANT TO SAY: BECAUSE I MIGHT KNOW?). However perfect, the copy is >distinguished from the original (RIGHT: AS FAR AS IT'S ARTISTIC, HISTORICAL, >MONETARY VALUE IS CONCERNED): it thus becomes imperfect (WRONG!: IT CANNOT >BECOME AESTHETICALLY IMPERFECT! THIS IS, WHERE WE NEED THE DIFFERENCIATION OF >DIFFERENT KINDS OF VALUE!!! WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED HERE WITH THE "AESTHETIC" >VALUE. THE OTHER CONSIDERATIONS (ABOUT MARKET VALUE ETC.) ARE RATHER BANAL AND >NOT REALLY OUR DOMAIN. > >To sum up, the copy is bound to be either inexistent as a copy (WHAT DOES THAT >MEAN???) (and false,i.e., untrue to its nature as a copy (HEAVENS! I CANNOT >FOLLOW YOU! WHAT IS THE "NATURE OF A COPY"?), or imperfect (AT THE VERY >BEGINNING, WE DECIDED TO TALK ONLY ABOUT "PERFECT" COPIES). To this extent, >one may say that a copy can never be perfect, at least as long as its purpose >is to fool (WHAT WAS THAT? YOU PREPARED ME/US IN NO WAY FOR THIS DARING >CONCLUSION. AND WHY NOT?!- THE "PURPOSE" OF THE "PERFECT" COPY WE SHOULD >LEAVE OUT OF OUR CONSIDERATIONS, SINCE IN MANY CASES IT CANNOT BE DETERMINED, >OR IT CAN BE CHANGED. AND ANYHOW: THIS, AGAIN, IS NOT AN AESTHETICAL >CONSIDERATION.THIS SENTENCE, TAKEN IN ISOLATION, SOUNDS UTTERLY ABSURD.) > >In other words, the perfect copy would be the self-denounced (SOUNDS GREAT! >BUT WHAT DOES IT MEAN?) perceptually indiscernible copy (DO YOU MEAN: A >PERFECT COPY THAT CANNOT BE RECOGNIZED AS SUCH ?) (and this should mean it >denounces itself and is not just denounced by an affixed label, which makes it >quite difficult--and contradictory). Let us just imagine this could be >possible. Well, then the question of "value" could not be raised, because the >copy would >self-denounce itself as belonging to another realm altogether... (THE WHOLE >LAST PARAGRAPH IS TOO FAR OUT FOR ME. I WONDER, WHETHER THE OTHER COLLEAGUES >UNDERSTAND YOUR TRAIN OF THOUGHT. IF SO, THEN THERE ARE WORLDS BETWEEN A >62-YEARS-OLD GERMAN-AMERICAN WORKING IN JAPAN AND HIS (I ASSUME) MUCH YOUNGER >AMERICAN COLLEAGUES. LAST NIGHT: I FOUND BY WAY OF THE INTERNET SOME NOT TOO DATED ARTICLES IN THE JOURNAL OF AESTHETICS, WHICH (GOING BY THE TITLES) MIGHT BE RELEVANT FOR OUR TOPIC: Morton, Luise H. and Thomas R. Foster: "Goodman, Forgery, and the Aesthetic", in: Journal of Aesthetics 49.2 (Spring 1991) 155-159. Cebik, L. B.: "On the Suspicion of an Art Forgery", in: Journal of Aesthetics 47.2 (Spring 1989)147-156. Rosenstein, Leon: "The Aesthetic of the Antique", in: Journal of Aesthetics 45.4 (Summer 1987) 393-402. Goodman, Nelson: "A Note on Copies", in: Journal of Aesthetics 44.3 (Spring 1986) 291-292. PEACE ! WOLFGANG RUTTKOWSKI >Bertrand Rouge >Universite de Pau >France > > >__________________________________________________________ >Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu >To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu >List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu >Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl *************************************************************** PROF. DR. WOLFGANG RUTTKOWSKI Kyoto Sangyo University, German Department Kamigamo-Motoyama, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 701-2151 Ext. 3384, Fax. 705-1684 or 1799 PRIV: Kitayama Sky Heights 507, 23-1 Dotenjocho, Takagamine, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 492-5640, Fax. 761-6022 E-mail: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/department/lg/rutt-e.html **************************************************************** __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 16 11:00:07 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA21589 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:00:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA19084 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:00:08 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA07039 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:24:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA07032 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:24:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA06434 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 09:24:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA27176; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:24:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 07:24:14 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: The Age of Mechanical Reproduction In-Reply-To: <3350951@isis.Reed.EDU> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: The other twist in all this... is the unwelcome realization that it has no longer been possible to see what the 'original' was... that is to say, the world-renowned painting in the world-renowned museum is at least twice-removed from immediate appreciation. Once, by 'virtue' of being caught-up in the museum's validation-presentation mediation, and secondly, by needing, like practically all other western artworks, to be photographically reproduced, _in order to be seen._ This requirement of course, is also extended to much of our perception of the world itself -- on viewing a particularly spectacular sunset, you might hear your self say, 'why, it's as pretty as a picture.' The art-gallery has become little more than a photo-studio to aid in the dissemination of photo-offset publishing or RGB InterNet graphics-files. This is a good thing BTW. -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html -- __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 16 13:27:17 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id NAA24890 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA03193 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 13:27:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA10867 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:00:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA10860 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:00:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from sardonyx.tufts.edu (root@sardonyx.tufts.edu [130.64.5.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA14158 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:00:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by sardonyx.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA02635 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jharbeck@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA20244 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:00:44 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:00:44 -0400 (EDT) From: James Harbeck To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: imperfect representations Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O X-Status: One thing that this debate has illustrated for certain is the disjunction that may occur between what one person intends to say and what another person receives as the message. (In other words, there are no perfect copies of intentional states occurring in the minds of the interlocutors, it seems.) Specifically, two things that seem to be the case to me in this regard are: a) Leslie Burkholder, in quibbling with a brief statement I made at the beginning of my post, actually comes out in agreement with my overall point. She's right, of course: even things that are simply functional and not intended as art have at least fractally different meanings and values for different persons. This is what I was trying to say, if in a slightly-too-hasty way. b) As far as I can make out, the main area of difference between myself and Wolfgang Ruttkowski (and, I think, between him and Bertrand Rouge, although I'd imagine it's better to let Bertrand speak for himself) is a matter of semantics and priorities. My view is that what is most important is to understand the cognitive processes involved--and Wolfgang has agreed that at base it all comes back to the perceiver--and my understanding of cognition includes as an important fact the interrelatedness of various ramifications and valuations to any given schema. Also my definition and understanding of aesthetics is such that it ultimately pertains to anything with emotive value--I hold that it is possible to experience aesthetically without being genuinely aware of so doing, for instance, and that in fact given the necessarily emotive and reflexive nature of all percepts, they must all have some pertinence to the individual's aesthetic sensibility. Wolfgang, on the other hand, is evidently more interested in elucidating functioning by differentiating different types of perception, understanding, etc., as clearly as possible; thus not only is his definition of "aesthetics" narrower than mine, but it is a matter of great importance for him to be able to be clear about the kinds of values operating, to categorize them and deal with them separately for the sake of clarity. While this is certainly an approach that is useful in many ways, my problem with it is twofold: a) the categories are themselves artifacts of the mind, not essential differences--we could parse reality differently if we wanted, and it has certainly been done by many--and b) one can never completely separate different perceptual and cognitive catgories; such distinctions must always be arbitrary (evidently Wolfgang disagrees with me on this, but I am in good company in holding this view). Perhaps a moderately functional analogy is one of the human body's functioning: it is fair enough to say that we have a variety of different systems--respiratory, circulatory, digestive, so forth--but if the question is "How does food nourish us" then we cannot stay only with the digestive system; we must consider the way that the nutrients are delivered to the cells, how they interact there with the oxygen in our system, etc. Of course it's all more messy and complicated that way; but it's incomplete otherwise. In short, I think we're kind of talking past each other here. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 16 14:14:09 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id OAA26187 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:14:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA20095 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:14:09 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA12171 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:48:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA12164 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:48:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA20106 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 11:48:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:47:49 +0200 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:47:45 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:48:16 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: O X-Status: Despite what seemed to me to be the common sense of my remarks, and yet quite expectedly, my comments on the status of copies have apparently been perceived as heretical... I'm not sure I should try to answer point by point, all the remarks made by Giles Peaker and Wolfgang Ruttkowski, but let me try to answer a number of points (in no specific order): 1) Despite the heading, I'm not aware that the thread was about Benjamin and the aura. The sentence we've been talking about (which, btw, should not be an end in itself) doesn't seem to have much to do with Benjamin: it could quite as well be referred to Danto's indiscernibles... 2) I do not think that I get into "confusions," only that "copies" are by nature paradoxical. 3) Indeed, copies are "of a pre-extant original," or else they are not copies. 4) I do not "ascribe authenticity to the 'original'": this authenticity is its very definition as an original. While the copy is indeed secondary (that's the reason why it is perfect (authentic as a copy) only inasmuch as it clearly manifests its un-original nature (in other words: its inauthenticity as an original). 5) I understand the proposed distinction between the aesthetic and the artistic, I just wonder whether it does not throw out the baby with the bath water, namely, the fact that the artistic and the aesthetic may be intimately related at some deeper level, there defining what is at stake in art. 6) Concerning what was the partial conclusion of a whole development, Wolfgang Ruttkowski writes: THIS SENTENCE, TAKEN IN ISOLATION, SOUNDS UTTERLY ABSURD. Well, it was not supposed to be read in isolation. Yours, Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 16 17:51:29 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA30921 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:51:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA29102 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:51:30 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA16831 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:32:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA16824 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:32:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA14120 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 14:32:05 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA24849; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 12:32:01 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id OAA16825 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: On Mon, 16 Jun 1997, Bertrand [iso-8859-1] Rouge´ wrote: > 4) I do not "ascribe authenticity to the 'original'": this authenticity is > its very definition as an original. While the copy is indeed secondary > (that's the reason why it is perfect (authentic as a copy) only inasmuch as > it clearly manifests its un-original nature (in other words: its > inauthenticity as an original). It would seem that this 'original' _requires_ copies or reproduction in order to be briefly imagined as such... But there really is no 'original,' in that all imagery (for example,) is predicated/dependant on other imagery. Such a supposed singular, independent, original image would likely not be recognizable. -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 16 18:48:25 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id SAA31601 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:48:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA23470 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:48:26 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA20442 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:38:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA20432 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:38:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from is2.nyu.edu (pmdf@IS2.NYU.EDU [128.122.253.135]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA23435 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 16:38:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from [128.122.175.146] (DIAL2-ASYNC22.DIAL.NET.NYU.EDU) by is2.nyu.edu (PMDF V5.1-7 #17736) with SMTP id <0EBW1FBUQ00BW9@is2.nyu.edu> for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:38:03 -0400 (EDT) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 1997 17:35:31 -0400 From: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu (Ostrow/Kaneda) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: ostrow@is2.nyu.edu (Ostrow/Kaneda) Status: O X-Status: >5) I understand the proposed distinction between the aesthetic and the >artistic, I just wonder whether it does not throw out the baby with the >bath water, namely, the fact that the artistic and the aesthetic may be >intimately related at some deeper level, there defining what is at stake in >art. They in some cases share the same object. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 16 19:33:01 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id TAA32190 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:33:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id TAA25513 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:33:02 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id SAA22867 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:23:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id SAA22860 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:23:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from unix2.derby.ac.uk (unix2.derby.ac.uk [193.60.145.2]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id SAA15951 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 18:23:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.176.130.19] (serialA12.innotts.co.uk [194.176.130.19]) by unix2.derby.ac.uk (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA11788 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 00:21:36 +0100 Message-Id: <199706162321.AAA11788@unix2.derby.ac.uk> Subject: Aesthetics: re: imperfect copy Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 00:29:32 +0100 x-sender: aart579@unix1.derby.ac.uk x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: Giles Peaker To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Giles Peaker Status: O X-Status: Dear Bertrand, A little questioning of your terms and I'm a member of the inquisition? I'll just get my pointy hood and then make a quick response to your response-ettes as far as they refer to my post (although you didn't answer my one question). >1) Despite the heading, I'm not aware that the thread was about Benjamin >and the aura. The sentence we've been talking about (which, btw, should not >be an end in itself) doesn't seem to have much to do with Benjamin: it >could quite as well be referred to Danto's indiscernibles... I never said it was *about* Benjamin, I just thought that a reference to his concern with reproducibility in relation to a mode of perception might have some glancing relevance. Obviously, I was wrong. >2) I do not think that I get into "confusions," only that "copies" are by >nature paradoxical. Only if you set a certain number of values up in advance and then don't interrogate them (see 4. below). I asked what value you saw in the original. I'll ask again. What (kind of) value do you see in the original? By the way, one could easily invert your paradox and argue that unless a copy is the 'exactly' the same as its original, it is not being true to its identity as a copy. So if it betrays itself as a copy, it isn't one - it is just a likeness. How then is it to manifest its 'inauthenticity', which is necessary, you say, to its identity as a copy? (I presume from your comments that you meant the inauthenticity should be manifest within the copy itself, rather than by documentation etc.) >3) Indeed, copies are "of a pre-extant original," or else they are not >copies. So what is a photograph? a cast sculpture? etc. etc. Would you prefer the term 'multiples'? In which case, to be banal, we must also stop referring to 'copies' of newspapers, or books. There is a serious point here about serial works (and incidentally the problems of dating multiple versions of a theme/motif - but this is about variation and a supposed 'original' theme, not perfect copies). >4) I do not "ascribe authenticity to the 'original'": this authenticity is >its very definition as an original. While the copy is indeed secondary >(that's the reason why it is perfect (authentic as a copy) only inasmuch as >it clearly manifests its un-original nature (in other words: its >inauthenticity as an original). See the reversal of this 'paradox' under 2 above. I think there is a difference in the terms 'original' and 'authentic' that is elided here, and that this elision is colouring your argument. This is certainly open to argument, but it might be suggested that 'original' is a temporal category (that which existed before/gave rise to...), whilst 'authentic' brings with it a whole host of value judgements, precisely the ones that lead you to your paradox. (Better, real, genuine etc). I would agree with Wolfgang Ruttkowski here. As an aside, this might be taken back to Benjamin, (sorry), as what you seem to be worried about is the aura, (the sense of age, of distance, of being authentic, to put it crudely) but the aura, for Benjamin (at least in the WoA essay), is not properly a property of the object, but arises through its mode of reception. This is quite possibly not what you mean, but until there is a separation of logical categories (before/after) and value judgements (pretending to be authentic), I can't quite see your point. Yours Giles Giles Peaker Historical and Theoretical Studies School of Art and Design, University of Derby, Britannia Mill, Mackworth Road, Derby. DE22 3BL (U.K.) +44 (0)1332 622222 ext. 4063 G.Peaker@derby.ac.uk Editorial Collective:Detours and Delays. An occasional journal of aesthetics and politics __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Mon Jun 16 20:54:16 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id UAA32319 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:54:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id UAA26162 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 20:54:17 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id TAA24604 for aesthetics-outgoing; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:35:35 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id TAA24597 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:35:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.74]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id TAA28735 for ; Mon, 16 Jun 1997 19:35:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (cc2000.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.73]) by ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (8.6.9/3.2W6) with ESMTP id JAA16164 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:35:19 +0900 Received: from [133.101.36.156] by cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (SMI-8.6/6.4J.6) id JAA24375; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:35:15 +0900 Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:35:15 +0900 Message-Id: <199706170035.JAA24375@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Subject: Aesthetics: "artistic" and "aesthetic" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Status: O X-Status: Two colleagues commented on Ingarden's differentiation between "artistic" and "aesthetic", revealing, that they do not understand it. I quote (and comment in capitals): "I understand the proposed distinction between the aesthetic and the >artistic (YOU DO NOT, AS YOUR FOLLOWING REMARKS SHOW), I just wonder whether >it does not throw out the baby with the bath water, namely, the fact that the >artistic and the aesthetic may be intimately related at some deeper level (OF >COURSE, THEY ARE! SEE THE FOLLOWING! BUT WHAT DOES "AT SOME DEEPER LEVEL" >MEAN, AFTER INGARDEN MADE THIS SO SUPERBLY CLEAR?), there defining what is at >stake in art (WHAT DO YOU MEAN WITH THESE LAST WORDS?). They in some cases share the same object." NOT "IN SOME CASES". THEY ALWAYS DO! THEY ARE ONLY TWO ASPECTS OF (WAYS OF LOOKING AT) THE SAME OBJECT (ARTIFACT). AGAIN: IF YOU LOOK AT AN ARTIFACT (NOT ONLY MASTERWORK) AS AN "ARTISTIC" OBJECT, YOU SEE IT AS A TECHNICAL AND SPIRITUAL (IN THE WIDEST SENSE) ACHIEVEMENT AT A CERTAIN POINT IN (ART-)HISTORY AND WITHIN ITS CULTURAL CONTEXT. (hypothetical examples: THE FIRST SUCCESSFUL APPLICATION OF PERSPECTIVE IN A CERTAIN WORK OF EARLY RENAISSANCE, THE FIRST ANATOMICALLY CORRECT DEPICTION OF NUDITY, THE FIRST/OR THE GREATEST EXAMPLE OF PICASSO'S "BLUE PERIOD", THE FIRST TRUELY NON-OBJECTIVE PAINTING BY KANDINSKY etc etc). HERE (AND ONLY HERE) THE QUESTION OF ORIGINAL AND IMITATION IS ALLIMPORTANT. WHY? BECAUSE WE MIGHT WANT TO STUDY (LATER) SOME DETAIL IN THE ORIGINAL, WHICH HAS NO "AESTHETIC" RELEVANCE FOR US BUT MIGHT HAVE GREAT "ARTISTIC" IMPORTANCE FOR THE ART HISTORIAN (e.g. the type of canvas or paint used, always provided, that the EFFECT is precisely the same as in a Perfect copy). NOW, ALL THESE "ARTISTIC" ARTIFACTS CAN ALSO BE LOOKED AT IN A PURELY "AESTHETICAL" MODE, THAT IS TO SAY: AS "AESTHETIC OBJECTS" OR ACHIEVEMENTS WITH "AESTHETIC" VALUES. THE LATTER DEPEND ONLY ON THE AESTHETIC IMPACT, THE WORK HAS ON US, OF COURSE A DIFFERENT IMPACT ON EACH VIEWER, DEPENDING ON HER/HIS AESTHETIC SENSIBILITIES, PERSONALITY STRUCTURE, EDUCATION, PERSONAL INTEREST etc etc. THIS IMPLIES, THAT A WORK OF GREAT "ARTISTIC" IMPORTANCE CAN HAVE VERY LITTLE "AESTHETIC IMPACT" ON US (it can "leave us cold") AND VICE VERSA: A WORK OF VERY LITTLE "ARTISTIC IMPORTANCE" CAN TOUCH US PROFOUNDLY "AESTHETICALLY". FINALLY: HOW DOES THE "AESTHETIC IMPACT" COME ABOUT?: INGARDEN WOULD SAY: IN OUR QUASI-CREATIVE ACT OF "CONCRETISATION". THE ART OBJECT IS ALWAYS GIVEN AS AN "INTENTIONAL" AND "SCHEMATIC" ONE. THAT IS TO SAY: IT HAS LOTS OF "SPOTS OF INDETERMINACY" WHICH WE HAVE TO FILL IN WITH OUR IMAGINATION AND/OR EXPERIENCE. (The author cannot tell/the painter cannot paint EVERYTHING.) THIS LAST POINT COVERS AND ANSWERS MANY OF THE GROPING QUESTIONS, COLLEAGUES RAISED IN THIS CONTEXT IN EARLIER CONTRIBUTIONS. IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN A SHORT AND SIMPLY WRITTEN SURVEY OF INGARDEN'S AND NICOLAI HARTMANN'S RELEVANT VIEWS IN ENGLISH (BETTER ENGLISH THAN THIS LETTER, I HOPE), E-MAIL ME YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL SEND IT TO YOU. ALSO INDICATE, WHETHER YOU CAN READ A LITTLE GERMAN. (MY GERMAN IS SIMPLE, SINCE I HATE ALL STYLISTIC POSTURING, ESPECIALLY HEIDEGGER'S BUT ALSO POST-MODERN.) Now, I have to rush to the campus. Wolfgang Ruttkowski *************************************************************** PROF. DR. WOLFGANG RUTTKOWSKI Kyoto Sangyo University, German Department Kamigamo-Motoyama, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 701-2151 Ext. 3384, Fax. 705-1684 or 1799 PRIV: Kitayama Sky Heights 507, 23-1 Dotenjocho, Takagamine, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 492-5640, Fax. 761-6022 E-mail: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/department/lg/rutt-e.html **************************************************************** __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jun 17 17:03:42 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA19902 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:03:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA14144 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:03:43 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA16437 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:12:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA16430 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:12:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from osage.gate.net (root@osage.gate.net [199.227.0.142]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA06323 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:12:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from mox (gnsfl1-30.gate.net [199.227.66.93]) by osage.gate.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA71192; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:11:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Conversation with last message Priority: Normal To: { brad brace } Cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wendy sauls Subject: Aesthetics: Re: nea Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 04:07:01 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wendy sauls Status: O X-Status: The Republicans in the House are trying to kill NEA (again). Email your Representative! __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jun 17 17:23:46 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA20033 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:23:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA04228 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:23:47 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id QAA17746 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:04:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id QAA17737 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:04:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from osage.gate.net (root@osage.gate.net [199.227.0.142]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA25131 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:04:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from mox (gnsfl1-30.gate.net [199.227.66.93]) by osage.gate.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id RAA29304 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 17:03:52 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <33A6E3A4.144E@erols.com> References: Conversation <199706171640.BAA08423@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> with last message <33A6E3A4.144E@erols.com> Priority: Normal To: aesthetics@indiana.edu MIME-Version: 1.0 From: wendy sauls Subject: Aesthetics: Re: NEA Date: Tue, 17 Jun 97 04:59:08 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wendy sauls Status: O X-Status: The Republicans in the House are trying to kill NEA (again). E mail you r Representative! __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jun 17 13:31:16 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id NAA13158 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA15699 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:31:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA10339 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:40:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA10324 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:40:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA16295 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:40:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24882; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:40:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 09:40:04 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: "artistic" and "aesthetic" In-Reply-To: <199706170035.JAA24375@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: "Artistic" here would seem to refer to the old narrow, insular, western, vapid world of validated Academy-Art. (No need to shout!) /:b -- On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Wolfgang Ruttkowski wrote: > Two colleagues commented on Ingarden's differentiation between > "artistic" and "aesthetic", revealing, that they do not understand it. I > quote (and comment in capitals): > > "I understand the proposed distinction between the aesthetic and the > >artistic (YOU DO NOT, AS YOUR FOLLOWING REMARKS SHOW), I just wonder whether > >it does not throw out the baby with the bath water, namely, the fact that the > >artistic and the aesthetic may be intimately related at some deeper level (OF > >COURSE, THEY ARE! SEE THE FOLLOWING! BUT WHAT DOES "AT SOME DEEPER LEVEL" > >MEAN, AFTER INGARDEN MADE THIS SO SUPERBLY CLEAR?), there defining what is at > >stake in art (WHAT DO YOU MEAN WITH THESE LAST WORDS?). > They in some cases share the same object." NOT "IN SOME CASES". > THEY ALWAYS DO! THEY ARE ONLY TWO ASPECTS OF (WAYS OF LOOKING AT) THE SAME > OBJECT (ARTIFACT). > AGAIN: IF YOU LOOK AT AN ARTIFACT (NOT ONLY MASTERWORK) AS AN > "ARTISTIC" OBJECT, YOU SEE IT AS A TECHNICAL AND SPIRITUAL (IN THE WIDEST > SENSE) ACHIEVEMENT AT A CERTAIN POINT IN (ART-)HISTORY AND WITHIN ITS > CULTURAL CONTEXT. (hypothetical examples: THE FIRST SUCCESSFUL APPLICATION > OF PERSPECTIVE IN A CERTAIN WORK OF EARLY RENAISSANCE, THE FIRST > ANATOMICALLY CORRECT DEPICTION OF NUDITY, THE FIRST/OR THE GREATEST EXAMPLE > OF PICASSO'S "BLUE PERIOD", THE FIRST TRUELY NON-OBJECTIVE PAINTING BY > KANDINSKY etc etc). HERE (AND ONLY HERE) THE QUESTION OF ORIGINAL AND > IMITATION IS ALLIMPORTANT. WHY? BECAUSE WE MIGHT WANT TO STUDY (LATER) SOME > DETAIL IN THE ORIGINAL, WHICH HAS NO "AESTHETIC" RELEVANCE FOR US BUT MIGHT > HAVE GREAT "ARTISTIC" IMPORTANCE FOR THE ART HISTORIAN (e.g. the type of > canvas or paint used, always provided, that the EFFECT is precisely the > same as in a Perfect copy). > NOW, ALL THESE "ARTISTIC" ARTIFACTS CAN ALSO BE LOOKED AT IN A > PURELY "AESTHETICAL" MODE, THAT IS TO SAY: AS "AESTHETIC OBJECTS" OR > ACHIEVEMENTS WITH "AESTHETIC" VALUES. THE LATTER DEPEND ONLY ON THE > AESTHETIC IMPACT, THE WORK HAS ON US, OF COURSE A DIFFERENT IMPACT ON EACH > VIEWER, DEPENDING ON HER/HIS AESTHETIC SENSIBILITIES, PERSONALITY > STRUCTURE, EDUCATION, PERSONAL INTEREST etc etc. THIS IMPLIES, THAT A WORK > OF GREAT "ARTISTIC" IMPORTANCE CAN HAVE VERY LITTLE "AESTHETIC IMPACT" ON > US (it can "leave us cold") AND VICE VERSA: A WORK OF VERY LITTLE "ARTISTIC > IMPORTANCE" CAN TOUCH US PROFOUNDLY "AESTHETICALLY". > FINALLY: HOW DOES THE "AESTHETIC IMPACT" COME ABOUT?: INGARDEN > WOULD SAY: IN OUR QUASI-CREATIVE ACT OF "CONCRETISATION". THE ART OBJECT IS > ALWAYS GIVEN AS AN "INTENTIONAL" AND "SCHEMATIC" ONE. THAT IS TO SAY: IT > HAS LOTS OF "SPOTS OF INDETERMINACY" WHICH WE HAVE TO FILL IN WITH OUR > IMAGINATION AND/OR EXPERIENCE. (The author cannot tell/the painter cannot > paint EVERYTHING.) > THIS LAST POINT COVERS AND ANSWERS MANY OF THE GROPING QUESTIONS, > COLLEAGUES RAISED IN THIS CONTEXT IN EARLIER CONTRIBUTIONS. > > IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN A SHORT AND SIMPLY WRITTEN SURVEY OF > INGARDEN'S AND NICOLAI HARTMANN'S RELEVANT VIEWS IN ENGLISH (BETTER ENGLISH > THAN THIS LETTER, I HOPE), E-MAIL ME YOUR ADDRESS AND I WILL SEND IT TO > YOU. ALSO INDICATE, WHETHER YOU CAN READ A LITTLE GERMAN. (MY GERMAN IS > SIMPLE, SINCE I HATE ALL STYLISTIC POSTURING, ESPECIALLY HEIDEGGER'S BUT > ALSO POST-MODERN.) > Now, I have to rush to the campus. Wolfgang Ruttkowski > > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jun 17 15:22:34 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id PAA16731 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:22:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA19101 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:22:34 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id NAA13718 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:37:49 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id NAA13711 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:37:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA31067 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:37:42 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA19823; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:37:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:37:35 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } To: Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id NAA13712 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: > >On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Bertrand [iso-8859-1] Rouge¥ wrote: > > > >>... Well, any new combination of pre-existing forms may be an original. > > This condition can apply to any instance of imagery. There is no original. -- %more A post-baroque, centerless world of transformation defined through the passage from a culture of objects and stocks to a world-wide culture of flows and interfaces. Meaning is multiple and heterogeneous and the gaze becomes anamorphic and double-coded as it adds signification to images, giving value to visual scrap and rebus. Each image leads always to another image in an opaqueness in which meaning is abysmal, playful, even spectral. -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The_12hr-ISBN-JPEG_Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jun 17 16:07:16 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id QAA18054 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA04655 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:07:16 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA14880 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:20:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA14865 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:20:22 -0500 (EST) Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [205.252.116.102]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA07153 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:20:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from sashai.erols.com (rcm-as5s71.erols.com [207.172.101.39]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA21566 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:20:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <33A6E3A4.144E@erols.com> Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 15:21:08 -0400 From: Chris Cochrane X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.01KIT (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Hisamatsu's "Vocabulary of Japanese Literary Aesthetics" References: <199706171640.BAA08423@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: Chris Cochrane Status: O X-Status: Wolfgang writes: > > I wanted to keep my mouth shut for a while, but Hisamatsu, > praised by some of you, is really the best illustration of what I > tried to point out (the uselessness of most Japanese aesthetic terms > for scholarly clarification... > > ... If you can read German, I can send you two articles in which I > compared the terminology of several literatures (Indian, Chinese, > Arab, Persian, and Japanese) according to percentage numbers of > available terms for the various fields of application (genre, style, > meter, periods and movements, mood etc.) as well as total amounts of > literary terms for some smaller ("exotic") literatures. You are right, Wolfgang. Counting the number of times aesthetic terms appears in various literature without attempting to elucidate them clearly puts you and Mr. Ed beyond Hisamatsu in focus, if not utility... :) How many "aware" appear in _Genji'_ is useful for tracing trends, which Hisamatsu recognizes and you seem to debunk. Of Hisamatsu, you write "... he introduces his attempts at explication with remarks like: 'Originally ... From the Heian period on, it was used to express ... As an aesthetic concept, it stands for ... or, at times, for ... Its specific connotation changes from ... to ... to ...'." Seeking constructs similar to Hisamatsu's mediating phrases IS the reason that counting words has something to offer. Chris... C. Cochrane, sashai@erols.com, Richmond VA USA __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jun 17 16:05:47 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id QAA18011 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:05:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA03353 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 16:05:48 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA14781 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:16:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA14769 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:16:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA10386 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 14:15:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:15:42 +0200 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:15:41 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 17 Jun 1997 21:16:12 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: O X-Status: I wrote: >> >>... Well, any new combination of pre-existing forms may be an original. Brad Brace answered: >This condition can apply to any instance of imagery. >There is no original. How can there be copies with no original? What are they copies of? How can there be perfect copies with no original? How can you judge of their perfection? Shouldn't we clarify the use of the words: original and originality? It seems to me that you mean there is no possible originality because all works draw from other works (I would agree that there seldom can be "absolute" originality, but then this leaves room for some degree of... creation, and this is precisely what some artists are to be praised for). Yet, this has little to do with the notion of an artifact being THE original--especially when debating the value of copies as exact reproductions (of what?). Yours, Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 12:39:02 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA32724 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:39:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA12893 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:39:03 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA08529 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:29:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA08522 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:29:47 -0500 (EST) Received: from wg.pu.ru (gw.pu.ru [193.124.85.195]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA19102 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:29:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from mu1451.UUCP (uucp@localhost) by wg.pu.ru (8.8.5/8.7.3) with UUCP id UAA01247 for aesthetics@indiana.edu; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 20:19:43 +0400 (MSD) Received: by mu1451.spb.edu (UUPC/@ v6.20, 03Nov96) id AA23941; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 00:04:14 +0400 (MSD) To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Message-Id: Organization: 1015 From: "Mikhail S. Uvarov" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 97 00:04:13 +0400 X-Mailer: BML [MS/DOS Beauty Mail v1.36H] Subject: Aesthetics: philosophy of music Lines: 10 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "Mikhail S. Uvarov" Status: O X-Status: Dear Friends, i'm very interested for the new information on the field of philosophy of music. Best wishes, Prof. Mikhail Uvarov St.Petersburg University Russia msuvarov@mu1451.spb.edu __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Tue Jun 17 13:29:06 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id NAA13287 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:29:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id NAA03293 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 13:29:07 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA10627 for aesthetics-outgoing; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:46:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA10364 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.74]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with SMTP id LAA06109 for ; Tue, 17 Jun 1997 11:41:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (cc2000.kyoto-su.ac.jp [133.101.32.73]) by ccnic.kyoto-su.ac.jp (8.6.9/3.2W6) with ESMTP id BAA18246 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:41:00 +0900 Received: from [133.101.36.141] by cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (SMI-8.6/6.4J.6) id BAA08423; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:40:20 +0900 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 01:40:20 +0900 Message-Id: <199706171640.BAA08423@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp> X-Sender: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Unverified) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Subject: Aesthetics: Hisamatsu's "Vocabulary of Japanese Literary Aesthetics" Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp (Wolfgang Ruttkowski) Status: O X-Status: I wanted to keep my mouth shut for a while, but Hisamatsu, praised by some of you, is really the best illustration of what I tried to point out (the uselessness of most Japanese aesthetic terms for scholarly clarification, - they are perfect for pseudo-profund rhapsodizing in the Zen-style, though ...): In Hisamatsu Sen'ichi's "Vocabulary of Japanese Literary Aesthetics" (Tokyo: Centre for East Asian Cultural Studies 1963) you find in his "Glossary of Literary Terms" (Appendix C, pp. 103-112) only 87 concepts, containing 21 names of genres while the rest refers to stylistic qualities in regard to contents and mood. Frequently, he introduces his attempts at explication with remarks like: "Originally ... From the Heian period on, it was used to express ... As an aesthetic concept, it stands for ... or, at times, for ... Its specific connotation changes from ... to ... to ..." I compiled a list of roughly 1000 Japanese literary terms (European languages have between 2500 and 3000), arranged in nine groups of application, but neither translated nor explained (Heavens!). This list is available upon request, but it will not help you much. Many of the terms can be used in two or even more groups.- If you can read German, I can send you two articles in which I compared the terminology of several literatures (Indian, Chinese, Arab, Persian, and Japanese) according to percentage numbers of available terms for the various fields of application (genre, style, meter, periods and movements, mood etc.) as well as total amounts of literary terms for some smaller ("exotic") literatures. For those of you, who "are into Japanese aesthetic terminology now": As to my knowledge, the most comprehensive Japanese literary dictionary is the 8-volume "Nihon bungaku dai-jiten" (ed. T. Fujimura, Tokyo 1949ff.) and its revised version in 12 volumes, the 6-volume "Nihon kindai-bungaku dai-jiten" (ed. Odagiri Susumu, Tokyo 1977) which specializes in the newer period, and the "Nihon kotenbungaku dai-jiten" (also 6 vols., ed. Ichiko Teiji and others, Tokyo 1983), which is mainly focussing on the classical period and before. The former even contains in its foreword an indication of the amount of aesthetic concepts discussed (660), the latter no hint. Together with Japanese colleagues I analyzed various dictionaries, Japanese and foreign (like Kodansha's and Jaroslav Prusek's) and always arrived at about 1000 terms.My own "Nomenclator Litterarius" (1980) contains 3000 Western concepts, each in 7 languages (Engl., Fr., Ital., Span., Dutch, Russ.) and all those non-European terms, which have played a role in European literatures. (Of course, the amount of terms gives no indication of the quality of a literary science.) Oyasumi! (Good night, it is 1.40am) Wolfgang Ruttkowski *************************************************************** PROF. DR. WOLFGANG RUTTKOWSKI Kyoto Sangyo University, German Department Kamigamo-Motoyama, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 701-2151 Ext. 3384, Fax. 705-1684 or 1799 PRIV: Kitayama Sky Heights 507, 23-1 Dotenjocho, Takagamine, Kita-ku, Kyoto 603 JAPAN Tel: 81 075 492-5640, Fax. 761-6022 E-mail: wolf@cc.kyoto-su.ac.jp http://www.kyoto-su.ac.jp/department/lg/rutt-e.html **************************************************************** __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 10:08:30 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id KAA29411 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:08:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA07436 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:08:31 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id IAA02269 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:13:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id IAA02255 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:13:19 -0500 (EST) Received: from mail.enterprise.net (root@mail.enterprise.net [194.72.192.20]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id IAA32468 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:13:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from [194.72.195.172] (ppp172.enterprise.net [194.72.195.172]) by mail.enterprise.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA28285 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:16:56 +0100 (BST) X-Sender: gjg@mail.enterprise.net Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:13:49 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Subject: Aesthetics: Perfect copies and authenticity Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: gjg@enterprise.net (Gordon Giles) Status: O X-Status: betrand asked: >How can there be perfect copies with no original? How can you judge of >their perfection? A perfect copy, if really perfect would somehow have to lack the quality of being a copy, which, of course, the original lacks. A similar problem arises where 'authentic' performance of music is concerned - even if you reproduce and verify all the conditions of some past performative event, the fact would remain that the 'authentic' one would possess the modernistic quality of authenticity as distinguishable from the authenticity which the original performance possesses without any effort on the original performers' part. That the authenticity - or 'perfect copy-ness' has to be striven for, distinguishes the object from that which it strives to copy or authenticate. Doesn't it? Gordon * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * The Rev'd Gordon Giles, Treasurer, Christians on the Internet (COIN) Church of the Good Shepherd,19, Hurrell Road, Cambridge, CB4 3RQ (+44] 01223) 464348 ---------------------- http://homepages.enterprise.net/gjg Gordon.Giles@ely.anglican.org __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 11:07:42 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA30934 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:07:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA22500 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:07:42 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id JAA03637 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:11:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id JAA03630 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:11:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id JAA08078 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:09:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:09:37 +0200 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:09:36 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:10:07 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: O X-Status: >Think about automobiles. Do you think that their is an original that each >car coming off the assembly line replicates ? We are not talking about automobiles, or--to be more precise--automobiles are not what I'm talking about. Do the "Dejeuner sur l'herbe" or "Olympia" or "Mona Lisa" come from some assembly line...? Come on...! BTW, car companies do build prototypes, don't they... Yours, Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 11:24:37 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA31619 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:24:37 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA14456 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:24:38 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA05790 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:14:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA05782 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:14:28 -0500 (EST) Received: from sardonyx.tufts.edu (root@sardonyx.tufts.edu [130.64.5.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA06080 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:14:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by sardonyx.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id LAA13554 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jharbeck@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA09116 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:14:19 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:14:18 -0400 (EDT) From: James Harbeck To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Aesthetics: authenticity Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: James Harbeck Status: O X-Status: Authenticity is an idle and most false imposition. The very idea of authenticity is an external imposition limiting organicity. And while by my own previously set views I am committed to acknowledging its aesthetic influence where it is held to be present, I feel that we are all a lot better off without the idea, especially to the extent that we wish to find ways to the maximum possible appreciation of any aesthetically ostended object. For some rather trenchant critique of the concept, I recommend "Wayang Kulit in the Colonial Margin" by Richard Schechner, originally published in _The Drama Review_ and now reprinted in his book _The Future of Ritual_. James Harbeck. __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 11:40:33 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA31708 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:40:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA03903 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:40:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA05946 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:20:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA05931 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:20:18 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA10544 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:20:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA23256; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:20:15 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id KAA05932 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Bertrand [iso-8859-1] Rouge´ wrote: > How can there be copies with no original? What are they copies of? > How can there be perfect copies with no original? How can you judge of > their perfection? Endless Copies of copies of copies; imperfect, too perfect, and not unlike the 'perfect sunset' -- a fearful perfect symmetry. A post-baroque, centerless world of transformation defined through the passage from a culture of objects and stocks to a world-wide culture of flows and interfaces. Meaning is multiple and heterogeneous and the gaze becomes anamorphic and double-coded as it adds signification to images, giving value to visual scrap and rebus. Each image leads always to another image in an opaqueness in which meaning is abysmal, playful, even spectral. -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 11:22:59 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id LAA31456 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:22:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA06468 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:22:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id KAA05988 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:22:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id KAA05980 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:21:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id KAA21464 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 10:21:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA23527; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:21:53 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: nea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, wendy sauls wrote: > The Republicans in the House are trying to kill NEA (again). > Email your Representative! Good riddance!!!! /:b __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 12:39:33 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA32421 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:39:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA15057 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:39:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA08266 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:17:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA08259 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:17:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA20445 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:16:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante25.u.washington.edu (root@dante25.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.99]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.04/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA34546; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:16:53 -0700 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante25.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.04/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id IAA32272; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:59:52 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 08:59:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Tate" To: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: nea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: Could this response be explained? This appears to be lauding attempts to do away with arts funding, and if so, I suspect that such announcements of political leanings are not appropriate for the list... Would others agree? Thanks, Joseph Tate U. of Washington On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, { brad brace } wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, wendy sauls wrote: > > > The Republicans in the House are trying to kill NEA (again). > > Email your Representative! > > > Good riddance!!!! > > /:b > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 12:43:15 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA32676 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:43:14 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA14619 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:43:15 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA08255 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:17:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA08242 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from jason01.u.washington.edu (root@jason01.u.washington.edu [140.142.70.24]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA31459 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:16:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from dante25.u.washington.edu (root@dante25.u.washington.edu [140.142.15.99]) by jason01.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.04/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id JAA34320; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:16:54 -0700 Received: from localhost (jtate@localhost) by dante25.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.04/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id JAA55536; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:11:21 -0700 Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:11:21 -0700 (PDT) From: "J. Tate" To: { brad brace } cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id LAA08243 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: "J. Tate" Status: O X-Status: I have stayed out of this debate, until now. Brad Brace's response to Bertrand Rouge raises interesting questions. Kenneth Joel Shapiro in *Bodily Reflective Modes* suggests a viable alternative the circuitity offered by the popular "meaning is endlessly rhetorical" approach. For Shapiro (a phenomenologist in the vein of Merleau-Ponty), meaning begins with the posture or awareness of our physical bodies and their point of contact with an external world. Few theorists talk about, but I believe few theorists would deny, that when we encounter an aesthetic object, whether the original or a fake, we have a physical experience (cf. the original Greek for aesthetic, meaning "sense perception"). As Dissayanake says, although perhaps too simply, "we feel good." So, I suppose one asks, how is that tingle in our spine a copy of a copy? Joseph Tate U. of Washington On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, { brad brace } wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jun 1997, Bertrand [iso-8859-1] Rouge´ wrote: > > > How can there be copies with no original? What are they copies of? > > How can there be perfect copies with no original? How can you judge of > > their perfection? > > > Endless Copies of copies of copies; imperfect, too perfect, and not unlike > the 'perfect sunset' -- a fearful perfect symmetry. > > A post-baroque, centerless world of transformation defined through the > passage from a culture of objects and stocks to a world-wide culture of > flows and interfaces. Meaning is multiple and heterogeneous and the gaze > becomes anamorphic and double-coded as it adds signification to images, > giving value to visual scrap and rebus. Each image leads always to another > image in an opaqueness in which meaning is abysmal, playful, even > spectral. > > -- > > { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp > > The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace > continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace > imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace > -- > Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc > Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg > Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html > > > > > > __________________________________________________________ > Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu > To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu > List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu > Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl > __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 12:36:32 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA00019 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:36:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA13364 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:36:33 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA08202 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:15:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA08195 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:15:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA27347 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:15:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA03621; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:15:29 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } To: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from QUOTED-PRINTABLE to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id LAA08196 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Bertrand [iso-8859-1] Rouge´ wrote: > ... Do the "Dejeuner sur l'herbe" or "Olympia" > or "Mona Lisa" come from some assembly line...? Come on...! These images are seen as and through reproduction -- primarily photo-offset lithography. -- %more ------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'Art' must adandon any critical pretensions, any dialetical illusions, any rational hope, and move, like the world, into a paradoxical phase, an ironic and paroxystic phase. __ The hypermodern minimizes the familiar, the known, the recognizable; it suspends identity, relations, and history. The modes of rhetoric are reduced to banalities, generalities and institutionalized textualities. -- { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace -- Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 12:36:23 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA00302 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:36:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA14377 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:36:24 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA08600 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:33:36 -0500 (EST) Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA08592 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:33:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA02384 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:33:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA07377; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:33:26 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:33:26 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } To: "J. Tate" cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: Re: nea In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, J. Tate wrote: > Could this response be explained? This appears to be lauding attempts to > do away with arts funding, and if so, I suspect that such announcements of > political leanings are not appropriate for the list... Artists and Art are better-off without misguided, half-hearted, politically-biased displays of dull systematic patronage. We can do a lot better ourselves! /:b __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 12:49:58 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id MAA00607 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:49:58 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA05772 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:49:59 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id LAA08941 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:43:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id LAA08931 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:43:46 -0500 (EST) Received: from wired.com (get.wired.com [204.62.131.5]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id LAA24969 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 11:43:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (bbrace@localhost) by wired.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA09335; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:43:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 09:43:42 -0700 (PDT) From: { brad brace } To: "J. Tate" cc: aesthetics@indiana.edu Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: { brad brace } Status: O X-Status: On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, J. Tate wrote: > ... So, I suppose one asks, how is that tingle in our spine a copy of a > copy? The 'tingle's recurrence' guides and positions one's place through the flow of historical culture. -- %more Behind every reflection, every resemblance, every representation, a defeated enemy lies concealed. Everywhere, objects, children, the dead, images, women, everything which serves to provide a passive reflection in a world based on identity, is ready to go on to the counter-offensive. Already they resemble us less and less... ____________ { brad brace } <<<< bbrace@netcom.com >>>> ~finger for pgp The 12hr-ISBN-JPEG Project ftp.netcom.com/pub/bb/bbrace continuous hypermodern ftp.teleport.com/users/bbrace imagery ftp.pacifier.com/pub/users/bbrace ____________ Usenet-news: alt.binaries.pictures.12hr/ a.b.p.fine-art.misc Mailing-list: listserv@netcom.com / subscribe 12hr-isbn-jpeg Reverse Solidus: http://www.teleport.com/~bbrace/bbrace.html __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 14:19:56 1997 Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id OAA02198 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:19:55 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA20322 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id MAA11224 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:46:32 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id MAA11217 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:46:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv2.univ-pau.fr (crisv2.univ-pau.fr [192.70.116.212]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id MAA32297 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 12:46:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from crisv1.univ-pau.fr by crisv2.univ-pau.fr; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:46:00 +0200 Received: from [192.70.116.206] by crisv1.univ-pau.fr; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:45:59 +0200 (MET DST) X-Sender: rouge@messv1.univ-pau.fr Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 19:46:30 +0100 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Subject: Re: Aesthetics: re: Perfect copy Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu id MAA11218 Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: bertrand.rouge@univ-pau.fr (Bertrand =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rouge=B4?= ) Status: O X-Status: >On Wed, 18 Jun 1997, Bertrand [iso-8859-1] Rouge¥ wrote: > >> ... Do the "Dejeuner sur l'herbe" or "Olympia" >> or "Mona Lisa" come from some assembly line...? Come on...! > >These images are seen as and through reproduction -- primarily >photo-offset lithography. You seem to have identified what I was talking of: what you call images--for some (maybe not so) obscure reason (you could call them paintings, after all...)--as opposed to reproductions. Then, what are the reproductions reproductions of? What are those... "images?" Some kind of platonician idea that would be the model of all copies...? Bertrand Rouge Universite de Pau France __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 16:23:18 1997 Received: from cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (cayman.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.187]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id QAA06636 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:23:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by cayman.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id QAA21599 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:23:18 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id OAA14973 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:28:20 -0500 (EST) Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id OAA14966 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:28:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (eastnet.educ.ecu.edu [150.216.8.1]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id OAA17041 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 14:28:08 -0500 (EST) Received: from [150.216.15.103] by eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-10253) with SMTP id AAA510 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:27:45 -0400 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:31:41 -0400 To: aesthetics@indiana.edu From: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Subject: Aesthetics: Authenticity Sender: owner-aesthetics@indiana.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: pybailey@eastnet.educ.ecu.edu (pybailey) Status: O X-Status: Questions for James Harbeck, who writes: >Authenticity is an idle and most false imposition. The very idea >of authenticity is an external imposition limiting organicity. And while >by my own previously set views I am committed to acknowledging its >aesthetic influence where >it is held to be present, I feel that we are >all a lot better off without the idea, especially to the >extent that we >wish to find ways to the maximum possible appreciation of any >aesthetically >ostended object. Would we also be better off without the distinctions between, for example, moral value, aesthetic value, artistic value, historical value, and so on? Do they limit organicity? Well, if they do, so much the worse for organicity, as they are, arguably, real distinctions, not pseudo-distinctions. We ought not to pretend that real differences do not exist, even if we are unhappy with what this implies or with how some people use them. We can argue that what some people think follows from a distinction does not really follow from it. For example, we can argue that there is no significant difference between the aesthetic or artistic value of two works that follows merely from one work's being authentic and the other work's not being authentic for any of the current senses of "authentic." The distinction is real enough. The question is, what turns on this distinction that is of relevance to artistic or aestheitc value, or is of relevance to other issues in the philosophy of art? Philosophers such as Beardsley, Danto, Goodman, Margolis and Sparshott see this distinction as artistically significant. If some of the readers of this thread think that these and other philosophers are seriously mistaken, I would appreciate seeing arguments supporting this view. George Bailey __________________________________________________________ Aesthetics Mailing List: aesthetics@indiana.edu To Unsubscribe: majordomo@indiana.edu List-Owner: Dominic Lopes at dlopes@indiana.edu Aesthetics On-Line Web Site: http://www.indiana.edu/~asanl From owner-aesthetics@miagra.ucs.indiana.edu Wed Jun 18 17:18:44 1997 Received: from belize.ucs.indiana.edu (belize.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.188]) by lux.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.3www-indiana) with ESMTP id RAA08079 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:18:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (miagra.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.181]) by belize.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id RAA14383 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 17:18:45 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) id PAA17400 for aesthetics-outgoing; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:41:31 -0500 (EST) Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (roatan.ucs.indiana.edu [129.79.5.186]) by miagra.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.2skh) with ESMTP id PAA17393 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:41:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from sardonyx.tufts.edu (root@sardonyx.tufts.edu [130.64.5.2]) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu (8.8.5/8.8.5/1.13IUPO) with ESMTP id PAA24461 for ; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 15:41:16 -0500 (EST) Received: from emerald.tufts.edu (jharbeck@emerald.tufts.edu [130.64.5.1]) by sardonyx.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id QAA21064; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:41:15 -0400 (EDT) Received: from localhost (jharbeck@localhost) by emerald.tufts.edu (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id QAA05112; Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:41:14 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 1997 16:41:14 -0400 (EDT) From: James Harbeck To: